Map symbols

[rvreclus]

To all,
I have been researching Spanish/Mexican map symbols through the web and through different written sources such as Shaffer, Rosencrans, Storm, Waite, and others all seem to agree on one thing the symbols for, and distance of a vara. I was wondering if you would agree that the symbols and distance are so standardized that there is no argument as to their depiction and distance value. That said, when looking at a trail map with the standard symbols for distance marking, how is it that we can all get to different places? I'm excluding two reasons of explanation 1) we adjust the map to fit our conclusion, 2) we interpret the starting point differently. This last exclusion is probably the most valid. What I really am interested in is how one would interpret the symbols, are they fluid enough to compensate for diferent makers? Is each map maker responsible for defining his symbol, if so how? Take any map such as the "Ortiz" or the trail map(Stone Maps) any other that you want are the symbols for distance the same?

I guess you can tell from this post that I want to get on in LDM, Respectfully, RVReclus

[rvreclus]

To all,
The subject I have proposed isn't difficult, it does require some thought. To add to what I have already posted, vara's are a Spanish/Mexican measure of distance which was done by survey(straight line determinations between previously established points). How does this distance determination translate to today? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I guess what I am really asking are C Kenworthy, Robinson, B Ward, Storm, J Ribaudo, and some I can't remeber right now the only one's who have been able to take maps and actually find/locate areas that are depicted on maps. I hope this will stimulate the thinking! Respectfully RVReclus

[Mike McChesney]

Hey RV,

There were actually several "VARA" distance measurements. The exact distance can only be determined by knowing when the particular vara reference was made.

If it was after Mexico won it's independence from Spain, the official Mexican Vara was 32.8 inches.

If it was during Spanish rule, there were two varas:

Measured Vara= 33 inches

Walking Vara= Was the average stride of a Spanish Soldier (approximately 33 inches (but could be anywhere from 32 to 39 inches).

Best,

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

Almost forgot,

Don't forget the "Estado". This was the equivalent of the height of a man (5'7" at the time).

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

RV,

Mike is correct. As you research, you will find a number of variations in Spanish/Mexican measurements. It's a crap shoot at best.

Good Luck,

Joe Ribaudo

[Mike McChesney]

Hey RV,

I think though, that if you use 33" as a general rule for Vara, you won't be far off for short distances.

For longer distances (1 mile or more), that 1/2" may easily add up to you being WAAAAAAAAAAAAY OFF!

Your best bet, is to grab a unit, and stick to it. Find two monuments, and measure the exact distance. See how that works with what you've got.

Best,

Mike

[rvreclus]

Mike,Joe-
If as you say the value for the distance of a vara varies dependent on the map makers, dot to dot trail maps such as the Ortiz map must have another component that identitfies locations on the trail. I am going to assume that these type of maps were surveyed using instruments to align specific points, the dot to dots, rather than walking a specific distances and other markings on the maps, Topo outlines?,from these points are verification that you are proceeding in the correct manner. This must seem simple for you guys, but I,m trying to see all the possibilities. With that said would you agree that Spanish/Mexican maps could be, techincally more sophisticated, because of the use of instruments than one would assume based on the fact that they were drawn in the wilds during the 1700's and 1800's.
I see what you mean by the crap shoot. Too much thinking it,s probably much simpler. Respectfully RVReclus

[Joe Ribaudo]

RV,

All maps from that era could be wonderfully accurate and woefully inaccurate.

The question is: Could the Stone Maps be reproduced today, without using scientific/surveying instruments? The answer is.......easily.

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

I believe we could use Geronimos cave as a good reference. A dozen of us could give concise directions relating distance and markers and probably few of those directions would match up well. Distance is a funny thing. My perception of distance would vary a great deal from Joe's even if we follow the same route.

One Dutch Hunter wondered why I would consider the Barks canyon route to Black Top over First Water, but to me Barks canyon is a quick easy route, to others it would be a more difficult and time consuming route. Varas would be the same for me. Joe and I may have the same general idea, but someone from the outside looking in would have a very different idea.

I am sure the mountains were very different and perhaps in some cases routes were more easily accessible. Very hard today to make that judgement call.

[rvreclus]

Joe,
I agree completely with your last post. The maps are as you say either they can be incredibly accurate or inaccurate and can be produced without the aid of instruments. The Stone Maps, have led you to Little Boulder Canyon, in the very near future I will be visiting my parent's in Gold Canyon and have translated and transposed 3 of my favorite LDM maps to clear vinyl sheets. Along with your information on the Stone Maps and a new collection of Topo's, I want to see were they take me. Joe and Mike thanks for your input, respectfully RVReclus

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen and RV,

I have spoken with many old timers who used to take horses many places in the mounatins that are no longer possible to ride.

A few places that come to mind are: Hieroglyphic Canyon, Carney Spring to West Boulder Pass and over the ridge that seperates West Boulder from East Boulder Canyon. You used to be able to ride up the north end of Bluff Spring Mountain in two seperate places. I am not certain that is still possible today. Two people who used to ride the
"imopssible" trails that are still alive, are Tracy Hawkins and Tom Kollenborn.

Another (younger) hand, who still makes those types of rides, is a knife maker named....... A few well known riders would not go where he rides. His animals are not abused in any way, he just has the talent to get where he wants to go.

I have been on a number of trails that were once very good and are now impassable. Who knows what it was like 200 or so years ago.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Carney Spring to West Boulder Pass and over the ridge
Joe Ribaudo

Even though I've been told differently, I still feel that this is the route they took Ruth in.

[zentull]

If not here, then please elaborate in the Ruth topic why Randy.