Bob Corbin - The FBI - The Stone Maps

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

You are correct....."....they are real maps". That does not mean they lead to a treasure. They are every bit as real as P.C. Bicknell's directions, which are an accurate map into the mountains, but don't lead anyone to the LDM.

On the other hand.....enjoy the adventure.

Joe Ribaudo

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

I am not making direct quotes out of Glover's Book, but I am using some of the information contained in it. Some of my information is the same as in Glover's book, but came from other sources. After finding the mistakes in Glover's Book, the only time I use his information, is when I have another source that backs his book up.

I have stated very clearly in the past, that there are several BIG inconsistencies in the story that Glover tells (on purpose OR by accident).

Not casting any aspersions on Apache Junction, Az, or Hood River, Or, but Tumlinson couldn't have gotten many appreciable investors in 1949 there. The only reason for telling anybody there, would be to enlist their help.

I know there were at least six or seven people who claimed to have either or both found the stones, and/oir sold them to Tumlinson.

Best,

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

Oh, and about the last statement. Funny thing is, not one of the people who claim to have found/made/sold the stones originally, have ANY pictures of them with the stones before Tumlinson. We have to take everybody's word for it.

As we know with some people already, there are some kookoos out there who will do anything to have their names associated with the stones and/or LDM. Unless somebody shows a picture of themselves standing with the stones in that time period, I will continue to take Tumlinson's story on face value (even though I believe Azmula's version is also VERY likely).

Best,

Mike

[djui5]

They are every bit as real as P.C. Bicknell's directions, which are an accurate map into the mountains, but don't lead anyone to the LDM.

Joe Ribaudo

Oh, I don't think they'll lead you to the LDM either. I think that is where most people go wrong. The maps are not a map to the LDM. They are from a different time period, leading to something far more important than some shaft of gold.

I looked in Kollenborns book, and on page 26 he's talking about the Reavis Ranch. I didn't see anything related to the stone maps, other than a reference to a house being built out of adobe brick and red flagstone. If that is what your refering to, then I really can't see how that would be enough evidence to suspect someone of fradulently creating the maps. If anything, it supports evidence that the stone type that the maps were made on does exist in the Superstitions. I don't need a book to tell me that though, as someone and I walked right past some of the stuff a few days ago.

Another issue is that I wouldn't believe a thing written in "Kollerburns" books, and have been avoiding reading that book. It was a gift

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

Let's try this again.

Read the chapter on Chuck Aylor in "Superstition Mountain....A Ride Through Time". See if you can find a connection in there with the Stone Maps.

[Another issue is that I wouldn't believe a thing written in "Kollerburns" books, and have been avoiding reading that book. It was a gift]

Don't know why you would make such a public statement about Tom Kollenborn, but he has been pounding around the Superstitions longer than you have been alive. He has know and been close to more "old time" Dutch Hunters than most of us have even heard or read of.

The man is an authority on the legends and the area. That means he know his history. He has ridden a horse into places where many hikers would hesatate to go. When you think you are in a place that has seldom held the gaze of another white man, it's likely you are standing in Tom Kollenborn's footsteps.

While I might repeat stories I have heard about the man, to someone in a private conversation, I would never dismiss his knowledge. Are you receiving calls from organizations asking you to speak to their members?
Why do you feel you are qualified to make such a statement?

It really says much more about Randy Wright than Tom Kollenborn.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Randy,

Let's try this again.

Read the chapter on Chuck Aylor in "Superstition Mountain....A Ride Through Time". See if you can find a connection in there with the Stone Maps.

I read it and found the quotes you are referring to. The chapter starts on page 129 I still don't see how this is a definitive connection to the stone maps. It mentions the heart, and stops, etc, but is this proof that Chuck and Tom were involved in creating the maps? I'd like to think not personally. A connection worth further investigation? Yes.

[Another issue is that I wouldn't believe a thing written in "Kollerburns" books, and have been avoiding reading that book. It was a gift]

Don't know why you would make such a public statement about Tom Kollenborn, but he has been pounding around the Superstitions longer than you have been alive. He has know and been close to more "old time" Dutch Hunters than most of us have even heard or read of.

The man is an authority on the legends and the area. That means he know his history. He has ridden a horse into places where many hikers would hesatate to go. When you think you are in a place that has seldom held the gaze of another white man, it's likely you are standing in Tom Kollenborn's footsteps.

While I might repeat stories I have heard about the man, to someone in a private conversation, I would never dismiss his knowledge. Are you receiving calls from organizations asking you to speak to their members?
Why do you feel you are qualified to make such a statement?

It really says much more about Randy Wright than Tom Kollenborn.

Joe Ribaudo

I know Joe. He probably knows more about those mountains than anyone, arguably, but you took what I said out of context. I said:

I wouldn't believe anything written in Toms books.

Authority he may be, and full of vast amounts of knowledge about the history of those mountains, and the terrain, maybe so. Willing to share that knowledge? No. I'm highly inclined to believe he wouldn't.

These damn books are driving me crazy. "Buy a book, buy that book, buy this book". They all say the same shit over and over essentially. Besides, how to wade through the BS when your swimming in an ocean of it?

[djui5]

Are you receiving calls from organizations asking you to speak to their members?
Joe Ribaudo

No. What makes you ask this? I'm not working for anyone, anywhere.

[Mike McChesney]

No Randy,

I think Joe is being sarcastic. Tom K. is always speaking to one group or amother. He is indeed, one of, if not THE, most knowledgeable people on both the Supers, and their history in the world.

I have spoken to quite a few people who know him well, and without exception, they have said that what he says in public, isn't what he necessarily thinks in private, for whatever his reasons.

As is the case with most LDM book writers. Some of the books I have seen are waaaaaaaaay off on many aspects of the story. Many times, it is on purpose. They want to let you know what they think, but not give out all the correct information.

Best,

Mike

[djui5]

As is the case with most LDM book writers. Some of the books I have seen are waaaaaaaaay off on many aspects of the story. Many times, it is on purpose. They want to let you know what they think, but not give out all the correct information.

Best,

Mike

Exactly, this is what I was referring to, not trying to attack someone's character.

[TC ASKEY]

Joe,


Novice mentioned in an earlier post that Dr. Elizabeth Miksa (research geologist) could provide a very educated guess as to the formation of the soft red sandstone maps were taken from the Mogollon Rim or northern Arizona.I do not know if this was a response to something you may have stated. Is this the basis for your statement concerning pg.26 of Kollenborns book ?

Personally, I would be more interested in the "portraits" that Azmula mentioned (on the other website ) that he viewed at the Dutch Hunter Rondevouz gathering last month. You were also there. Did you by any chance get to view what he was refering to?

I am sure that those of us that were unable to attend would like to know the differences that he refers to. Were the portraits more along the lines of the stones in the Az.Mineral Museum or the photo on the bumper of the old car in Tom Glovers book?

A response would be greatly appreciated.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

I have two copies of "....A Ride Through Time". One is a signed first edition hardback. The other is the paperback edition. Both start the 15th. chapter, which is about "Caballo Camp: The Aylors", on page 123 and end it on page 126. I have no idea what book you are looking at.

"I know Joe. He probably knows more about those mountains than anyone, arguably, but you took what I said out of context. I said:

I wouldn't believe anything written in Toms books."

Actually this is what you said:

[Another issue is that I wouldn't believe a thing written in "Kollerburns" books, and have been avoiding reading that book. It was a gift]
It is never a good idea to "partially" quote anyone, especially yourself.
When you do that, you are in danger of taking your own words "out of context".

Your statement, taken in context, implies that you don't believe you could learn anything from Mr. Kollenborn's book. While that may be true,
because you don't have enough information about Mr. Kollenborn or Chuck Aylor, you make statements like this:

"I read it and found the quotes you are referring to. The chapter starts on page 129 I still don't see how this is a definitive connection to the stone maps. It mentions the heart, and stops, etc, but is this proof that Chuck and Tom were involved in creating the maps? I'd like to think not personally. A connection worth further investigation? Yes."

While you are "avoiding" learning about the man, you are unable to connect his history to the Stone Maps. I believe the evidence points in their direction, but that and five bucks will get me a fair cup of coffee.
That matches up with Mr. FBI saying that they believe the Stone Maps are at least 100 years old.

It appears that Mr. Kollenborn is incorrect when he talks about the Aylor's home in LaBarge Canyon. That does not negate his knowledge and experience.

Because I know the history, the quotation from Hamlet is an important link in joining those two men to the Stone Maps. Without the rest of my research.....it's only mildly interesting. I believe that would best describe how you found it.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Terry,

Hope all is well with you, and the trout get dumber each year.

I did not make any statements concerning page 26.

Here is the quote, once again, from page 126 of ".....A Ride Through Time":

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps one of Chuck Aylor's favorite quotes best describes the Aylors and their quest for gold in the Superstition Mountains: "You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife, Cousin Sam and his wife Mary, all three stopped in at Peter's camp at the Rendezvous. They introduced themselves to Peter, who did not have the courtesy or manners to lift his fat ass out of his chair and welcome them into his camp. He only came into our camp to pass out his fliers and throw one of his "friends" under the bus.

When he walked close to our camp, I tried to welcome him and he grunted while waving me away. At that point, I had no desire to enter the vipers nest.

Greg Davis spent a good deal of time in that camp. He would be the one to comment on "Azmula's portraits". Maybe he took some pictures.

Sorry I can't be of more help. "Azmula" looks in on this site often. Perhaps he will share the information with you in private. I doubt he would post it here.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Randy,

I have two copies of "....A Ride Through Time". One is a signed first edition hardback. The other is the paperback edition. Both start the 15th. chapter, which is about "Caballo Camp: The Aylors", on page 123 and end it on page 126. I have no idea what book you are looking at.

Well I have the bright yellow one. Maybe it's different than the one you have. I'll be happy to take a picture of it if you wanna see it. Like I said, it was a gift.

"I know Joe. He probably knows more about those mountains than anyone, arguably, but you took what I said out of context. I said:

I wouldn't believe anything written in Toms books."

Actually this is what you said:

[Another issue is that I wouldn't believe a thing written in "Kollerburns" books, and have been avoiding reading that book. It was a gift]
It is never a good idea to "partially" quote anyone, especially yourself.
When you do that, you are in danger of taking your own words "out of context".

Your statement, taken in context, implies that you don't believe you could learn anything from Mr. Kollenborn's book. While that may be true,
because you don't have enough information about Mr. Kollenborn or Chuck Aylor, you make statements like this:

Well Joe, I still fail to see how the 2 quotes differ at all. One says "Another issue is that I wouldn't believe a thing written in "Kollerburns" books" and the other one says "I wouldn't believe anything written in Toms books." How are those different? Aside from the "Kollerburn" thing, they're the same in my book. The Kollerburn thing is an inside joke, you wouldn't get it. Just being silly. Hope I didn't offend anyone, I got enough people following me around those mountains

BTW, that was another joke...

"I read it and found the quotes you are referring to. The chapter starts on page 129 I still don't see how this is a definitive connection to the stone maps. It mentions the heart, and stops, etc, but is this proof that Chuck and Tom were involved in creating the maps? I'd like to think not personally. A connection worth further investigation? Yes."

While you are "avoiding" learning about the man, you are unable to connect his history to the Stone Maps. I believe the evidence points in their direction, but that and five bucks will get me a fair cup of coffee.
That matches up with Mr. FBI saying that they believe the Stone Maps are at least 100 years old.

It appears that Mr. Kollenborn is incorrect when he talks about the Aylor's home in LaBarge Canyon. That does not negate his knowledge and experience.

Because I know the history, the quotation from Hamlet is an important link in joining those two men to the Stone Maps. Without the rest of my research.....it's only mildly interesting. I believe that would best describe how you found it.

Joe Ribaudo

Well Joe I said that because I know exactly what you were directing me to. We've talked about it before. I was trying to tell you that unless you know something you didn't discuss with me, I'm not sure I'm connecting all of this to the stone maps, personally. Even despite the "profile" and horse. It's all quite compelling though, and would surely warrant more investigation. Personally, I wouldn't spend too much time trying to figure that out though, as I'm confident enough that the stone maps are real, and do lead to treasure, if you can figure them out. See, that's the hard part, people have pre-conceived notions and ideas. It's too hard to let go, and have an open mind

Maybe someday I'll have the pleasure of another cup of your coffee, and we can hash this out in more detail. I would enjoy that. I do agree with you on some things though.

Tell the family I said hello. Sammy the Bull is quite a character.

[TC ASKEY]

Joe, Not sure if you were refering to me or the trout with your opening comment in your last post. But yes, the trout are getting a lot dumber. The day Flowing Springs is first stocked each week.

No criticsim intended but your original post at 6:24 this morning did quote Pg. 26.

I have to honestly say that I did not understand Aylors quote,although I did read that as well. I do not know if he was quoting Hamlet, Shakespeare or something in Aylors and yourselves area of interest. Hopefully Azmula will be looking in and answer my question concerning the portraits he refered to.

I am suprised that everyone did not camp in the same location during the rondezvous. I thought all the animosity would have been overlooked for at least one weekend. Sorry I was not able to be there. It would have been a treat for me.

I have understood your problem with "Lumpy" for sometime now. Peter has caused a great deal of problems on this forum and I still do not comprehend the reasoning.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Terry,

You are quite right. A typo on my part, but a mistake none the less. The management has rightfully taken away the ability for people to work an agenda and then deleat the evidence.

Should have been page 126.

"you would pluck out the heart of my mystery" seems a a bit too much of a coincidence, since you also pluck the heart out of the Stone Maps. The fact that the map includes "Caballo Camp" is, no doubt, also by chance.

Peter's "reason" became clear when he passed out the flyers announcing the start-up of his new, and improved version of Ron's Forum. A lot of members rushed right over to join a "moderated" LDM Forum.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

I am sure you are correct.

Joe Ribaudo

[rvreclus]

Gentlemen,
To let you know in advance I'm new to this particular subject and have my own thoughts. I was reading all the recent postings and this came to mind. I read the chapters Joe refered to and a few others. Looked at some of T Kollenborns other writings. Joe, I don't know what you've got but the connections you alude to present food for thought. That being said, I have asked myself why 4 maps? The 4 maps were found together, but does this mean they are to be used together? Or are they really 2 sets of maps, 1) the trail maps to a specific place, 2) Priest/Horse map to something else? Where they made at the same time or was 1 series done as follow up to something that was found.I can't continue my thoughts right now, family matters. Respectfully RV Reclus

[djui5]

Good questions!!!!

[TC ASKEY]

Reculus, Joe could be correct in what he feels pertaining to the Stone Maps. Aylor and Joe's area of interest are in the same area. Those who believe the Stone Maps are of another area will probably agree with Azmulas version.

" IF " the Stone Maps Are authentic, it is also possible that the Horse/Priest Map could refer to Eusebio Francisco Kino.

When Azmula refers to a creator of the Maps,my guess would be that he is speaking of Father Carlos Rojas.

Kino began his ministry in Pimeria Alta with support of Father Antonio Roxas in 1687. Kino made a series of 40 explorations into Arizona starting in 1691. He was known to be as far north as Casa Grande in 1694. If Kino had gone any further north of the Gila River, I was unable to find a refrence. However, a Map dated 1701 that was made by Father Kino, clearly shows the course of the Salt River beyond the Superstitions. Kino died in 1711 and the last few years of his diaries were never found.

Father Carlos Rojas was in Arizpe(Arispe) from 1727 until the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767. Rojas was shipped out of the Port of Guaymas on the Principe during theJesuit expulsion.He was also listed as shipped out of Vera Cruz on the Princessa Ulrrica.
Carlos Rojas(Roxas) Born in Mexico 11/4/1702
Place of Death: Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz Espana 1/3/1773.

The mission in Arizpe came under the contol of the Franciscian Order from 1768 until 1780 under the care of Fray Juan Domingues when he was replaced by a Secular Priest by the name of Miguel Elias Gonzales(Gonzalez).

Dose the name Gonzales ring any bells?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Terry,

There not much of a chance that Father Rojas had anything to do with the Stone Maps. If Azmula ever brings his book to press, I doubt he will be able to back up that claim.

Anyone able to point out the historical document that puts him close to the Superstitions for any length of time?

I know that many people believe the maps end up in another area of the Superstitions. Every single theory has to move parts of the maps out of place......except mine.

The fact that Bob Brady and Harry LaFrance's caves of gold bars both are in "my area", turns out to be one hell of a coincidence. Harry's cave is marked on the Stone Maps, so I assume Bob's is as well.

If I were to list the names of "Dutch Hunters" who believed there was a treasure or mines on the Stone Map Trail, as I have laid it out, it would be one hell of a list.

Unless Azmula's Stone Map Trail ends up in Little Boulder Canyon, he is as wrong as the rest.

Your information is without fault, except that Father Rojas died on 1/30/1773, rather than on the third. I assume that was a typo. He was visitador general from 1763 to 1766. During most of those three years, he was quite ill, and did not do much traveling at all.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

I want to thank Greg Davis for the help with the Bob Corbin Note. After is was deleted by krf, I wasn’t having much luck and Greg shared the handwritten note from Bob along with the Paul Dean articles and the story on the first public showing of the stones in 1970. I have been “cautioned” about those articles but they certainly contain “some” useful information.

In Bob’s note, he stated “it was approximate in the late 1960’s, I believe, that I was at the US Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy U. S. Attorneys told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was in their office.. Apparently the Phoenix office had obtained the stone maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were recent fakes.”…….”I spoke with the agent and asked him what they had found analyzing the stone maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred years old. To my recollection that’s all he said about the maps.”

My speculation:

In my mind, this encounter in the late 1960s, certainly occurred and it suggests that public authorities were somehow involved with the stone maps in this time period. This episode is completely separate from the SEC and MOEL Inc. trial in 1964 which seems to have had nothing to do with the maps. There was a lot of speculation on the forum that these events were connected.

If Bob’s recollections are correct, it seems that the FBI never considered the maps as anything but fakes and the question they were trying to answer was whether they were recent. Did they have a history before Clarence Mitchell or had he or someone created the maps and they were being used fraudulently?

I certainly have a lot of questions about the time period before the maps were turned over to the museum. Other than me wanting cleaner story, it could also impact the theory that some or all of the maps owned by the museum are replicas. The answers may be out there but for now the "documentation" is not public? Guess I’ll keep looking.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

If the Phoenix office of the FBI ever had possession of the Stone Maps, for any reason, there would be a paper trail. Letter or no letter, chances are this is just another urbin legend.

If anyone with any credentials ever tested those stones, and came up with the right answer.......there would have been a band playing, flash bulbs popping and dogs barking at the (very) public announcement.

Joe

[novice]

Joe,

Urban Legends have no source. It seems to me we have an awfully good source here. It's just too hard for me to explain away with the wave of a hand. It's not something someone would easily be mistaken about.

I believe there was much more going on than meets the eye in the 1968-1969 timeframe. I can't even make up a good story at this point and I really haven't even seen much speculation. Except, "Bob Corbin is simply pulling everyones leg?"

Do you believe that every time the FBI investigates something, they call a news conference?

Garry

P. S. Testing the stones are your words and not Corbin's. He said analyzed. I'd like to see us get rid of the word testing in regard to the stones.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I have no problem with either word. I doubt the FBI would have the expertise to analyze or test the authenticity of the Stone Maps.
It also seems unlikely they would even take on the task, as it would not seem to be something that would come under their purview.

I don't believe I said the "FBI" would "call a news conference". On the other hand, there are a number of groups, with a vested interest" who would seek out and publicize any positive results.

Bob and Helen Corbin had a "vested interest" in the results of that alleged FBI analysis. They have sold a number of books concerning the stories and legends that find a home in the Superstition Mountains. As you may have noticed, the Stone Maps are, by far, the most popular subject on this Forum.

Can you tell me how much space Mrs. Corbin dedicated in her books to the Stone Maps and her husband's "inside information"? Like the "manifest", this "letter" has a bad, bad smell.

If the FBI was involved, in any way, with the Stone Maps, we are being given the smallest tid-bit of positive information, which was:
"they believed the maps were at least a hundred years old."

You have been left with eleven words to vouch for the authenticity of the Stone Maps. The strongest word of endorsement is, "believed". It seems obvious that if there were anything positive to be found, it would be found in "The Bible".

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

Hey Joe,

Don't forget Professors Martin, Stout, and Dana. They examined they examined the stones long before the SEC Trial in 1964.

Best,

Mike