TED DE GRAZIA

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Joe Ribaudo
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TED DE GRAZIA

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

If you were to hit the search button and type in "de grazia" and then click on the posts tab, your search will find two posts mentioning Ted De Grazia. If you investigate the links in the "Jan" post, you will find some interesting names popping up. In your search of those sites, you will find the allegation that Ted De Grazia may have been the author of the Stone Maps.

As I believe one of the places the Stone Maps show is the Harry LaFrance Cave Of Gold Bars, my research has led me to searching for a connection between De Grazia and LaFrance.

The first, most obvious, connection is Bob Ward. Ward was the first to put Harry's story into print, and Bob claimed a connection to De Grazia. There are other connections.

Ted (Ettore) De Grazia was born in the mining town of Morenci, Arizona. His father was a shift boss at the mine. In 1930, at the age of 20, Ted was living with his parents in Morenci. As I mentioned earlier, Harry LaFrance was living in Tucson at the "El Presidio Hotel".
He was a "Com. Traveler" and dealt in "Wholesale Dry goods". Being only 170 miles from the Morenci Company Store, it is likely he was one of their suppliers.

Ted was in and out of high school, and one could assume he quit to work around Morenci. The same can be said of his years at the University Of Arizona at Tucson, where he enrolled around 1932. He worked at "odd jobs". It would seem that Harry LaFrance and
Ted De Grazia were in the same area, and perhaps the same city (Tucson) in the same time period. There was only one Harry LaFrance living in Arizona in 1930, going strictly by the U.S. Census.

Ted spent a number of years in Mexico and upon his return started a love affair with the Superstition Mountains. He was a Dutch Hunter. As you delve into his history, you will find many interesting stories. It's worth the effort.

The question is: Did De Grazia and LaFrance ever meet? If they did, you have the beginnings of a great story.

I believe I have the answer to that question.

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Connections

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ted De Grazia did have contact with the LaFrances.

The question is: Were the two of them involve in a cooking up a story about a cave of gold bars, and if so, for what purpose......other than as a basis for another book.

One of the mediums that Ted worked in......was gold. 8O He could have manufactured a good looking gold ingot with little effort.

It is rumored that Ted may have come back from mexico with some old treasure maps. His sidekick for his expedition into the Superstitions was about as Mexican as you can get.

Why was the prospector that Harry LaFrance was going into the mountains to help, never named, and why was he not part of the search party? Let's see if I have that right.....You have a friend working in the Superstitions.......prospecting.........you find a cave of gold bars.......and the friend becomes a ghost. :?

Why was Harry's last name changed from LaFrance to France? Where is the record of Harry's death? Did he die in Arizona or Long Beach, California?

There is no doubt that there was a gold bar. There is some doubt at to who's gold bar it was. Harry France, Harry LaFrance or maybe even Ted De Grazia's. 8O

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
buscar
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Post by buscar »

Joe,

Perhaps the real answer to the question, is that some folks unwittingly fuse together certain misleading clues by allowing them to dominate other senses. Sometime we are convinced of the existence of a outlandish tale (not saying this is one of them), because we simply want to believe them without demonstrating our ability to do research.

Oftentimes-even research leaves us without answers.

The ‘vanishing truth’ is possibly the most recognized of the vast number of widely circulated tales. The teller tries to form a kind of fabrication that intertwines with the legends of ancient times.

Man is a teller of tales drawing attention to one’s character. Most frequently, their best-told tales are in reality “TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE?”

buscar :)
Joe Ribaudo
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Truth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

What you say is true, but the one thing we have in the Harry LaFrance story is a gold bar with a crown. That is the one part of the story that was real.

Let's assume that Harry and Ted De Grazia were friends. Ted comes back from Mexico with a map and a story of buried treasure. He searches the Superstitions for that treasure and finds nothing.

Over a few stiff drinks, Ted relates the story to his friend, Harry LaFrance.
They discuss ways to renew the search. What they need is an enthusiastic team of searchers with knowledge of the Superstitions.

A gold bar with the King's mark on it might create the enthusiasm they need. Ted decides he can cast such a bar and has the gold available to create it. They make up a story to go along with the gold bar.

The only one who will be in the search party, who actually knows what they are looking for......is Harry. At some point, he sees what he is looking for. He tells no one.

Harry now needs to get rid of the searchers. He exits........stage left.
The searchers mourn his death and eventually abandon their own searches. They have always looked for the triangle rock with a cave entrance at its base. It does not exist.

The treasure did exist and was removed later. Those who are searching today are still looking for the triangle rock with a small opening at its base.

The only question left.....for me, is: Were there only two treasure caves, or were there more that were left unopened? Do the Stone Maps lead only to the two caves, or are there two more? Someone else will have to answer that question.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
buscar
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Post by buscar »

Joe,

A couple of years ago, I found a triangle rock exactly as described to me by Tracy L Hawkins. However, when I searched beneath it, the cave was empty.

This is just another case of Harry’s rainy-day gold, indicating how arbitrary a tale can be, that sometimes leaves us puzzled. :?

buscar :)
Joe Ribaudo
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Triangle Rock

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

I noticed your picture. Did you take pictures of the cave as well? If not, since it was empty could you descrbe what it looked like inside? Was the rock formation the size of a Baby Grande Piano, or larger? What was the elevation? Where was the cave entrance in relation to the rock?

I understand if you don't want to answer any of those questions..... just ignore them.

Joe Ribaudo
buscar
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Post by buscar »

Joe,

The picture at Member Archive is not of the triangle rock, Harry described to Tracy.

Check your pm for the answers, that you already know.

buscar :)
Joe Ribaudo
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Your Story

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Lawerence,

I believe it's your story and picture. Just trying to give you a little nudge to divulge as much as you are comfortable with. If that's it, no harm, no foul. :)

I will soon have one of Ted De Grazia's books which is inscribed: "To the LaFrance's, Luck, DeGrazia". The book is an "Artist's Proof Edition; 1st Printing limited."

Probably just a coincidence......lots of LaFrance's around this area :wink: , but there are a few more coincidences.

Harry LaFrance, Ted De Grazia and Bob Ward. Could there be a story hidden in there some somewhere? Seems like a good place for someone like Garry to focus his talents. 8O

Joe Ribaudo
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Mexican Sidekick

Post by novice »

Joe,

I had never heard of Ted De Grazia until I saw his name in some of the posts. I know everyone is eons ahead of me on this subject but I did try to do some backfilling and I had a question.

Did the Mexican sidekick of Ted De Grazia also have some ancestral ties to the Tohono O'odham or am I on the wrong path?

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
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Indian Ties

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I would not think you were on the wrong track, if you are looking into Indian ties. Ted was a "blood brother" of a specific tribe. I will tell you the name when I get back home......assuming my computer is back after our power failure last night. :cry:

There were a number of stories floating around during Ted's
"Superstition Mountain" days, dealing with what he knew, who he knew and what he had. (maps)

This is a finely spun web, so you should follow the leads, no matter how small or where they take you. I believe it will be a trip worth taking, just for the history surrounding Ted De Grazia.

Just personal opinion so I could, of course, be wrong.

Our best to Carol. It's not easy......but the results will be like a miracle.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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De Grazia/LaFrance

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Rather than start a "New Album", I scanned the inscription page from the Ted DeGrazia book into the T-shirt album. Anyone who is interested in this "connection" can view it there.

Joe Ribaudo
walker12
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Re: Truth?

Post by walker12 »

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Buscar, . . .

Let's assume that Harry and Ted De Grazia were friends. Ted comes back from Mexico with a map and a story of buried treasure. He searches the Superstitions for that treasure and finds nothing.

Over a few stiff drinks, . . .


Joe Ribaudo[/quote]

What about if he came back from Mexico, or Morenci for that matter, with some gold. IIRC, and have the "discovery" timeline right, gold for private ownership had a some strings attached to it during this period. Finding (i.e.making) a bar or two of "historic" gold could have been a good way to put some questionable gold into legal circulation and/or get top dollar for it.

While certainly not as thought out as Joe's theory this too seems possible to me.
Joe Ribaudo
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Tohono O'odohm

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

When the party reached First Water, there was "trouble" between a wrangler and one of the Indians in De Grazia's group. That "trouble" almost escalated into a gun fight, and required the intervention of Constable Grady Haskins to smooth things out. The Wrangler was fired.

There were four adult Indians in Ted's expedition:

Juan Xavier was a 63 year old Papago (Tohono O'odohm) Indian.

63 year old Jose Compoy was a Yaqui Indian from the Sierra Madre. Ted was said to be "blood brother to the Yaquis". Compoy's son, Juan was also with the group.

63 year old Vincente Garsa and Marko Romero were from Chihuahua. Romero claimed to "have ridden with Pancho Villa".

All were said to be Indians, but that would not mean they weren't Mexican. There were obvious ties to the Tohono O'odohm. Ted also had very close ties, from childhood, to the Apache.

The party spent their first two nights at Weaver's Needle, and then proceeded "deeper into the mountains".

The above information came from two newspaper articles of the day.

You will enjoy the history that this story will lead you into.

Take care,

Joe
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