El Sombrero

[buscar]

El Sombrero

Please do not tar and feather me. I wish only to start a thread, where we all can work together in helping explain four of the maps that are reproductions made by Tom Kollenborn.

Here is my rendition to the unexplained.

“El” meaning “the“ and “Sombrero” meaning “wide-brimmed hat.”

In each of the four maps is a drawing that resembles a peak. Three of the peaks are identified as El Sombrero, and the fourth peak, Negro El Sombrero.

The question: Why did the creators of the maps name three peaks El Sombrero and the one peak Negro El Sombrero, when neither of the peaks in the drawings resemble the wide-brimmed hat worn by men in Mexico and some other Spanish-speaking countries?

Note, that the map makers did not call the peak a wide-brimmed hat but the wide-brimmed hat.

El Sombrero in this case appears to be a reference to keep under the wide-brimmed hat the secret (something valuable ) connected to it.

Negro El Sombrero (the wide-brimmed black hat) similar in appearance except for having two stripes thus being a symbol into which normal language is converted to allow information to be communicated.

The hat also means an area of responsibility: used for a single area of interest, knowledge, or responsibility in an individual with many interests and responsibilities.

The conclusion in the explanation appears that the map makers did not intend to draw a peak resembling the wide-brimmed hat. Perhaps however, they were referring to the peak resembling the crown of the wide-brimmed hat. Hmmm!

What about Weavers Needle? It too is often mentioned as being El Sombrero.

(See maps at Member Archive).

Come on all you LDM members. Be part of a causative force in solving a mystery.

buscar

[TGH]

>>The hat also means an area of responsibility: used for a single area of interest, knowledge, or responsibility in an individual with many interests and responsibilities.<<


Now thats a mighty interesting and insightful thing to say...and link it with......El Sombrero.....

[buscar]

The words “El Sombrero” appear to be a code intended to draw attention to the peak in that it resembles the crown of (El Sombrero) the wide-brimmed hat.

Therefore, the coded message is a sign with specific meaning
perhaps the headdress (crown) symbolizing royalty.

And so, the person or persons connected with or participating in something became their responsibility to the king.

buscar

[zentull]

Sombrero doesn't really mean wide brimmed hat. While the term is generally accepted as pertaining to the typical wide brimmed hat worn by mexicans, that would literally be "amplio rebosan el sombrero". Sombrero literally could be translated as shadow hat or hat that casts shadow or even a shade hat. It is derived from the word "sombre" which means shadow. "Sombrero tejano" would be your typical cowboy hat. So in its basic form it would mean hat. "Negro el Sombrero" could mean the black hat or the dark hat.

A number of other clues that refer to the dutchman also allude to an "El Sombrero", but they refer to a pile of stones or boulders. They also refer to a teepee shape.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

That seems to be a pretty fair take on "sombrero".

I have read that "sombrero" is an English word, derived from the Spanish word,"sombra", meaning exactly what you have said.

I assume it was then picked back up by the Mexican people and adopted as their own.

It does seem important to know if and when the term was first used by the Mexicans.

It appears that both buscar and yourself are saying that Weaver's Needle is not "El Sombrero". That would send a lot of folks back to the drawing board.

None of the above should be "taken to the bank", as my memory ain't so good as it usterbe.

Respectfully,

Joe

[djui5]

It appears that both buscar and yourself are saying that Weaver's Needle is not "El Sombrero". That would send a lot of folks back to the drawing board.

Respectfully,

Joe

I know I'm new here so I'm not sure how much "credit" this will have, but I never really did either. It seemed too obvious, and I never really thought weavers needle looked like a "sombrero" like a lot of people say....

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

I have posted a picture of a sombrero in the Rendezvous Album in "Member Archive". I also have pictures of Weaver's Needle which look very much like the crown of that hat, with a fairly flat top mountain in the foreground.

The "Doc" Thorn story comes to mind here also.

The "Priest Map" may also (maybe) come into play, with that pointed crown on his hat. Only problem with that map, is that the maker should have used someone else for his "model".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Randy,

I have posted a picture of a sombrero in the Rendezvous Album in "Member Archive". I also have pictures of Weaver's Needle which look very much like the crown of that hat, with a fairly flat top mountain in the foreground.

The "Doc" Thorn story comes to mind here also.

The "Priest Map" may also (maybe) come into play, with that pointed crown on his hat. Only problem with that map, is that the maker should have used someone else for his "model".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

New pictures!!!

You can have the priest map

I've seen shots of Weavers needle that looks like the crown of a hat, and another "major" mountain peak that looks like one too from a certain angle...

[zentull]

Sometime back I posted concerning a Q source concerning maps. I think that applies here. Maps seem to copy the same routines with an occasional twist based on general clues, rather than actual directions. Its funny when a clue is indecipherable it seems absent from maps or becomes part of a general topography.

2 of the maps are the same map, yet Negro El Sombrero is replaced by El Sombrero. I have seen a dozen variations of the Profile map. All of these are based on the tracing of the original. Were the words El Sombrero part of the original ? It seems El Sombrero becomes a popular term for Peralta maps, but who set the precedence? The 4th map appears to be a collection of clues, discoveries and ideas. El sombrero is drawn in a similar profile yet from different perspectives from map to map. It is not the perspective of Buscar I question so much here, but the authenticity of the maps themselves.

Tex Barkley may have called Weavers Needle "El Sombrero" a time or two, but Tex had a thing for keeping the undesirable people out of the way.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

Got to put my money on P.C. Bicknell as being the first to put "sombrero" in print. That story likely came from Julia Thomas and by extension......
Jacob Waltz.

Next in line is probably Barry Storm. Map's is anybody's guess.

Respectfully,

Joe

[zentull]

Weavers Needle made its earliest appearance in the 1860s if I remember correctly on military maps. Then when is the first mention of the Sombrero mine in relation to the LDM ? P C Bicknell created a lot of confusion ( As did Julia ) concerning the mines possible location. It is odd that Julias maps are geographically incorrect, but can be seen as a basis for later maps that make the proper corrections. I have not found the Greg Davis book on the P C Bicknell/Az Republic articles which may explain a lot. We all seemed to burn the midnight oil on this last night.

Weavers Needle can in the afternoon get that shadow which gives it a dark appearance. But I thought the Sombrero relationship came from the perspective of the Sombrero mine. I guess we would have to see it from that perspective in the early morning. Haven't been there, can anyone give me directions or a map ?

[buscar]

A high school teacher living next door previously mentioned, that the earth revolves around the sun once every twenty-four hours, and a shadow (from a peak) falling on a certain spot one day, would change the following 24 hours, and fall somewhere else.

He stated, that a 4 o’clock shadow to fall ( move downward from a higher to a lower position) on the same place another time in the southernmost part of the hemisphere, could only occur on the shortest day of the year, which is December 21st.

buscar

[zentull]

He meant the earth completes a revolution every 24 hours and the earth completes one cycle around the sun each calendar year.........I hope

I will bring the Heineken if you bring the sandwiches.

[buscar]

Sounds great! But we’ll have to wait until December 21st at 4 o’clock in the afternoon so that we both can find the same shadow (spot) under Weavers Needle. Do you like sandwiches with limburger cheese?

buscar

[Chief Oshkosh]

Bicknell's article says:

"The district designated is not extensive. It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, a prominent and fantastic pinnacle of volcanic tufa that rises to a height of 2500 feet among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock. One can reach its base only after struggling through a network of bowlder-choked canyons and well-nigh impenetrable thickets. In its weird loneliness it seems an index finger marking the location of some hidden mystery. Owing to its resemblance, from one point of view, to a high-crowned pointed sombrero the Mexicans and Indians call it Sombrero butte, or rather El Sombrero, and it is the landmark around which cluster all the tales of treasure referred to, whether Indian, Mexican or frontiersman. Americans have given it the name of Weaver's Needle, in memory of old Paulin Weaver, the well-known trapper and pioneer of the Southwest."

According to him the name was in use before the white eyes arrived.

You guys seem to concentrate on whether Bicknell was telling the truth, spinning a tale, or repeating a lie he was told. In my opinion the important part of his discription is "Owing to its resemblance, from one point of view..."

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chief,

Welcome to the Forum.

Are you from Wisconsin?

Actually, Weaver's Needle looks like a sombrero from a number of places,
not just "from one point of view".

I missed the part where Bicknell said "the name was in use before the white eyes arrived. I believe the word "sombrero", was actually coined by English speaking folks. If that is true, it was in use by Americans before Mexicans.

I don't believe Weaver's Needle qualifies as a "Butte", in anyone's language.

I have a nice copy of a picture of Chief Oshkosh, which was originally painted by Samuel Brookes. Sadly, the Chief was consumed by alcohol.
If you have not seen the picture, I will be happy to post it in the Member
Archive.

Hope you stick around and become a regular. We need some new blood.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

While he looks a little out of place, I put the Chief in with the Apache pictures.

[zentull]

Thought I already went there. No ones given me directions yet, so I guess I have to find it on my own.

I said Bicknell helped to create confusion. He was an early dutch hunter himself. He may have reported the story, but I have no doubt that like everyone else he forgot to mention a few things. Anyone got a copy of Barks 40 questions for Rhiney? I am sure he threw it out with the trash.

While we have maps that reference Weavers Needle back to the 60s, it seems odd that nothing significant was reported in relation to El Sombrero in our time frame, much less El Negro Sombrero. In reference to the maps it is important of the terms familiarity within cetain timelines. It is an important key if related to a particular viewpoint, but when it becomes a generalized term it has a another meaning. Its name could have nothing to do with the Peraltas. If so then the particular viewpoint in relation to any specific area concerning them becomes very coincidental if not a long shot. If the mountains had no particular name and the Peraltas used the peak as a reference as well as the Salt River, then perhaps.....

However..........Butte is a french word. Those crazy Native Americans and their cunning multi linguistical abilities.

Maybe colina aisalada just didn't roll off the tongue or the typewriter.

The topic is good. Everyone is right until someones very right. Then everyone else is wrong. In this case it can make or break a lot of perceptions and/or reasoning. I would rather wake up and find I am wrong tomorrow and know the truth, then wonder if I am right with everyone else.

[Chief Oshkosh]

Are you from Wisconsin?

Guilty as charged. Speaking to you from my humble shack on the shores of Lake Winnebago. Or as it is more commonly known this time of year Lake Winneseptic. Ice shoves, lake flies and stinking algae, it's a lovely spot. If the walleye fishing wasn't so good I would have headed inland years ago.

I missed the part where Bicknell said "the name was in use before the white eyes arrived.

"Owing to its resemblance, from one point of view, to a high-crowned pointed sombrero the Mexicans and Indians call it Sombrero butte, or rather El Sombrero"

I could be wrong but I have always thought the Mexicans and Indians were in Arizona before the anglos. If they called the peak "El Sombrero" and they were there first then wouldn't their use of the term predate the arrival of the anglos? At least that's what I thought. Hence my white eyes comment.

I'm no linguist so I have no idea who invented the word 'sombrero'. I always figured it was Mexican or Spanish. If the anglos invented the word and didn't move into Arizona until after the Mexicans were kicked out at the end of the Mexican-American war, then wouldn't the Mexican name for the peak be something like Picacho instead? And how would the Indians have picked up the name "El Sombrero" since the Mexicans wouldn't have known it when they were in contact with the Indians and the great majority of the Indian's dealings with the anglos was at the buisness end of a rifle? Seems like they would have had little opportunity to sit around and discuss simantics. Then again who knows? Maybe they all just sat around and drank warm beer and played cribbage. Damn makes me homesick for the "Trail's End" (a dive bar here in town on Merritt next to the tracks).

I have some pictures of the old Chief too. I even have a drawing of the old Chief Oshkosh Brewery. Can't figure out how to post them though.

Well, time for me to go and try to kill old Uncle Jack.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chief,

The "Mexicans" were not kicked out of this country. They had the choice of staying or going. Many chose to remain and became U.S. Citizens.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

Joe,

I also believe they invited many back to help populate the territory.

[Chief Oshkosh]

Finally finished killing Uncle Jack. I got that bottle for Christmas and thought I'd never finish it. I'm getting too old to drink that stuff...

I had no idea that some of the Mexicans stayed and others were invited back. I thought all of them were basically evicted after they lost the war. As you can see I'm definately no historian. I hope you all will have patience with my ignorance.

That puts a whole new light on things. So I guess that means the maps must be from the period after the war and before the name Weaver's Needle became popular. Or possibly El Sombrero was used to make them appear to be from that period.

I find the Negro El Sombrero interesting. Once again my ignorance will probably show through so I'm warning you all in advance. Wouldn't the correct phrase be El Sombrero Negro? I'd think that a spanish speaking person who was literate enough to write would be able to put the words in the right order. Another possibility is that the map maker spoke english and was trying to translate his ideas directly into spanish without considering the correct grammar.

[cts49]

Howdy from Washington in south west PA, this is my first post so I hope I don't seem to stupid, but in the Members Archive in the photographs under the Priest and the Heart by Oltimer, on the first page, lower right is a picture of a butte that sure has the look of a sombrero. What is that butte's name. While I am sounding ignorant of things what does anyone think of the Rames book Quest for Peralta Gold? Enjoy this forum, lots of info, can't wait to hike in the Superstitions someday soon. Cal

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chief,

I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating that the Peraltas had no reason to fear losing their mining claims in the U.S.

From the Treaty Of Guadalupe Hidalgo:

ARTICLE VIII.
Mexicans now established in territories previously belonging to Mexico, and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States, as defined by the present treaty, shall be free to continue where they now reside, or to remove at any time to the Mexican Republic, retaining the property which they possess in the said territories, or disposing thereof, and removing the proceeds wherever they please, without their being subjected, on this account, to any contribution, tax, or charge whatever.

Those who shall prefer to remain in the said territories may either retain the title and rights of Mexican citizens, or acquire those of citizens of the United States. But they shall be under the obligation to make their election within one year from the date of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty; and those who shall remain in the said territories after the expiration of that year, without having declared their intention to retain the character of Mexicans, shall be considered to have elected to become citizens of the United States.

In the said territories, property of every kind, now belonging to Mexicans not established there, shall be inviolably respected. The present owners, the heirs of these, and all Mexicans who may hereafter acquire said property by contract, shall enjoy with respect to it guarantees equally ample as if the same belonged to citizens of the United States.

ARTICLE IX.
The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic, conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States, and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without restriction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The entire treaty is not that long and is well worth the effort to read it.

The articles of interest for this conversation can be found on page 544 in the "Encyclopedia of Minorities in American Politics Vol. 2." At the end of the treaty, page 547, you will find an interesting story. It is: "A Mexican Account of the Attack on the Alamo".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Chief Oshkosh]

Mr. Joe,

Wow you really know your history. Thanks for the info. The text of the treaty flies in the face of some of the Dutchman stories I've read. No wonder you discount Bicknell's version. My uninformed opinion has always been that Bicknell's version is the oldest, so it must be the closest to the truth. Guess again!

I've noticed that my posts say "Greenhorn" under my name. It seems truer words were never spoken....

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Joe,

Au Contraire! I have found something different.

Yes this was written in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, however, something different happened. There are endless accounts from New Mexico to California that describe how badly Hispanics were treated. Especially with regards to property, timber, livestock, civil rights, and mineral such as gold. For example: The Foreign Miners Tax was created in California in-order to legally acquire properties and begin a strong constitution to rid the land of Hispanics. Infact after the Gadsden Purchase of Dec 1853 many Hispanics in Tucson gave up trying to register their residencies. It was not until 1863 that the holdouts were rewarded by the U.S., however, many Anglos were in place to acquire those Hispanic properties. No land grants were legalized by the U.S. until the 1890s. The above is a general rule of thumb. There were a few success stories, mostly during the Cal. Gold Rush. This is a subject that can be researched indefinitly. I have left a lot out because I do not want to write a term paper tonight or tomorrow.

And remember, the Peraltas, if they were actually in the Superstitions as legend has it, were in no mans land of Apacheria. A place where no law existed even though U.S. ground. Also, the U.S.-Mexican War had just ended for most, but not all. Many Hispanics were attacked by Americans traveling to Cal. They had reason to worry.

Jesse