Spitzfelsen.....

[Thomas Glover]

Joe,

The answer to your question is: Yes

Peter,

Nothing like converse logic to keep one feeling good.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dr. Glover,

Does "converse logic" mean we all sit around and talk about it?

Slow morning.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Thomas Glover]

Joe,

Converse logic means starting from a firm conclusion and working backward fitting the known facts to the conclusion. (As opposed to taking the known facts and constructing a conclusion based on them.) In the end to no one’s surprise in converse logic the “facts” support or fit the conclusion. It is sometimes called Jesuit logic. An example in society could be racism. A person firmly believes that another race is inferior/slow/whatever and then whenever they come across someone of that race acting to fit their ideas/conclusion they take that as evidence or facts supporting their ideas while disregarding any instances where individuals of the race in question do not fit their preconceived ideas. In the end they end up with a wealth of “Facts” that to them “prove” their original conclusion.

[bill711]

TOM; that,s a very good spill BUT you forgot to give JOE his HORSE Bill PETE; I was going by how the Jake alledgedly left his mine and the 2 soldiers discription of the mine that they came upon in the sup,s. Of course it COULD be a different mine BUT with gold just laying around??? sounds very similier to me. Bill OH hi Joe Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dr. Glover,

I fear I am venturing into deep water on this subject, but as a young boy I was pushed into the deep end of the pool; therefore, I should be able to survive this thread, as I know exactly what you are talking about.

It's interesting that you have used "Jesuit logic" to make your point. It is the type of logic that is common to all religions, that I know of. It is more often described as "reverse logic" rather than "converse logic", but a man of your education would more naturally gravitate towards
"converse". That is said with respect.

For those who use this method to reach their conclusions, you are in excellent company. The list is long and distinguished.

As many here will attest to, logic is not my strong suit. If I were to attribute "converse logic" to a specific religion, I don't know if I would pick Jesuits/Catholics over some that I think might better fit the term.
Latter Day Saints do come to mind for some reason. I could use "converse logic" to explain that statement, but the mind balks.

I would guess that Mohammad Akram Gill would jump into this conversation with both feet, or would that be with two virgins?

Your post was succinct, and I appreciate the effort. I like mine better.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I believe I will hold out for a mule.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; you have to admit that TOM sure has a way with the words !! Bill Pete; when I was talking about how the Jake left the mine; I was talking about the 1st time when he said that he got back and jacob wiezer was missing and he got boogered and scaddoodled out of there. He left the mine with whatever Wiezer had dug out laying around. Bill

[Peter3]

Bill,

That may be true if there was a partner names Wieser. I am still on the fence as to whether he existed or not.

P

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

There are three records of "Jacob Weiser(s)" being born in Germany around the time of Jacob Waltz's birth and immigrating to the United States.

It might be possible to see if there is any record that they were ever in the same area at the same time. That seems like a rather large search for a very small needle.

If there was no partner, why the specific name? Why would someone make up Jacob Weiser?

Bark says there was such a partnership. That information (likely) had to come from Julia or Rhinehart. Did they just make up the entire story, or was it more likely that it originally came from Waltz?

I don't think Holmes ever mentioned Weiser in his tale. Does that give more or less creedence to his story? I guess you have already answered that question.

The fact that there is no official record of Jacob Weiser that can be linked to the history of Waltz, or that the man was ever in Arizona, is not evidence that it was not so. What other evidence is there to support the existence of the "dead letter" Jacob Weiser in Arizona? While the letter came long after the death of Waltz's "partner", someone thought there was a Jacob Weiser, possibly still alive, in Arizona. That seems pertinent.
Don't you wish you had that letter?

Assume the partnership and you can add more "evidence" towards locating the LDM. Assume there was no such partnership, and you may be tossing the baby out with the bath water.

Is there a problem with trying to add that "evidence" into your area of interest?

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

>>Is there a problem with trying to add that "evidence" into your area of interest? <<

Actually quite the opposite. I have found a letter supposedly written by one of Weisers descendants that fit certain close-in topographical features that I am interested in so well that it is scary. Either 1) the letter is factual and simply describes the mine area or 2) the letter is bogus and the hoaxer decided to describe this particular small area in detail.

Interesting that a hoaxer would zero in on this canyon.

Anyway, I am not certain about the validity of the letter, but what it describes and the history it relates are dead on...to my understanding.


P

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

Would that be a letter from Hershell Weiser?

I should think, if he describes your area of interest so precisely, that you would have a hard time staying on that "fence".

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; Good score! here you go, HEEHAW NOW PETE; HERE is another sniff of a clue about wieszer. CHECK what HERMAN insisted WALTZ name was HE was in a dog fight with anyone who said or claimed that Waltz name was not WALTZER? HE wrote to newspapers and all to proclaim this. Did he have the 2 names cofused togather??? HERMAN swore the name was WALTZER... bill ALSO it was pretty common back then for a letter taking several years to follow it,s receiver down. They were usually sent general delivery. OR tobe held until called or asked for...If it was learned by the postal clerck the joe blow had moved to timbucktoo then he would forward the letter to timbucktoo. That,s how things used to be done.

[bill711]

JOE & PETE; We must keep in mind that the town,s or cities were real small back then, The miners all moved from one local to another in droves so it was very common that they all knew one another from some place or other... They all haunted the same places or watering holes and they talked... Bill

[bill711]

JOE; how would you like to try to follow TOM,S foot trail? HE would have your nose going in 3 direction,s all at the same time!! YOU would have to track him by where he isn,t??? bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill

If Dr. Glover wanted to take a little walk into the Superstitions, I might be persuaded to go back in. I would not, however, be going for any reason other than the company. I will not return to my own area of interest again. From now on, I am just along for the ride.

There is no doubt that Herman was wrong about "Waltzer".

Now if Peter could get his hands on, or take a little peek, at Weiser's journal......

This topic has had almost eight hundred views since Friday. What's unbelievable is the small number of replies and the even smaller number of participants in the thread. It seems obvious there is some degree of interest.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

I wouldnt mind taking a looksee at Weisers journal...providing there was a journal and there was a Weiser.

Know what I'd really like to take a gander at? Pankins Map (the part he never showed anyone). Now that would be interesting I think.....

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

In your research, did you find any evidence that Ernest Pankin actually existed in Alaska or Arizona? For that matter, is there any evidence of the existence of a white man named Ernest Pankin ever existing between 1880 and 1960, anywhere in the United States?

Jim Bark did not call the man Pankin, but Blank. Both Bark and Ely each say that the man came to them. Ely said that the man's name was, Ernest Albert Panknin. Now that makes the trail a little easier to pick up. A white servant by that name, did live in Arizona in 1900, and he was born in South Carolina, as Ely states.

Sims Ely says that Panknin showed him a map and told him of a continuation of the map, but did not show it. Bark states he did not see the map. Who knows which story has the "facts". At this point, it seems that Ely has the inside track on telling the truth where this story is concerned. You must also feel that Ely's story is correct, although you used a different spelling for Panknin. Many others have used the same spelling, including Dr. Glover. It's only one letter, but it changes Albert from a white man to a black man. Perhaps one day, he will become a Chinaman.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

I do not really care how his last name is spelled. I would still like to take a gander at the map.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

Perhaps you are right, and it makes no difference if the story is true or not. While there is no evidence that Ernest Albert Panknin was ever in Alaska, what possible difference could that make. It's only having a map that is important.

It seems to me that we had a discussion, some time ago, about researchers getting names and dates wrong in their stories. I am trying to remember which side of that discussion you came down on.

If you would really like to see that map, how would you go about trying to find a distant relative who might have it tucked away in a musty old scrapbook? How far would you follow the Pankin lead? He, after alll, spent at least fifteen years, plus or minus a few years, searching with that map, without finding a thing.

As I remember it, Panknin said that Bark and Ely's search area was about five miles farther west than the area indicated by his map and recolections. Does that come back into your own area? Just kidding, as that would be TMI.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

I have noted that there are several of the dumb looking maps that you can,t make sense of until you realize that they are the first leadin to a smaller area map. sort of like the one Al must have had. bill WHERE is the lazarus?? Is he above ground??

[S.C.]

Ernest Pankinin did exist. I have a copy of his obituary I received from a friend showing that he lived in Arizona.

Whether he really was in Alaska I cannot say. Though, based on discriptions Pankinin gave I would suspect he was there.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,

I don't believe anyone was saying that Ernest Panknin did not exist. What I said was:

"Jim Bark did not call the man Pankin, but Blank. Both Bark and Ely each say that the man came to them. Ely said that the man's name was, Ernest Albert Panknin. Now that makes the trail a little easier to pick up. A white servant by that name, did live in Arizona in 1900, and he was born in South Carolina, as Ely states."

Might just as well add these little pieces of information since we seem to have drifted off the topic. The Panknin name comes from Germany , and there are five Paniknins living in Arizona today. Phone numbers available on request.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

Looks like this topic has run out of gas. Good job of picking a topic of interest. The number of views, compared to the number of replies is amazing. One can only wonder why it turned into, for the most part, a two man conversation. Tremendous interest, no participation.

Maybe "Parking Fees" or Wyatt's investment opportunity thread will catch on.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

I actually believe you are correct when you doubt the existence of Jacob Weiser. It would appear that Helen Corbin is correct when she identifies Waltz's partner as "Jacob Weiss".

The first question that comes to mind, is: If Waltz and Weiss came to this country together with their mothers and fathers, why aren't they listed in the Olbers manifest?

From, "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by, Ely:

"It is now clear, however, that Waltz was , in fact, born in Germany, the only son of Karl and Judith Waltz. With the outbreak of the Revolution of 1848, the Waltz family fled to America, and the Weisers, Franz Weiser and his wife and his son, Jacob, came with them. Both families settled in St. Louis...." pg. 88

While it seems that Ely was wrong here, how did he have Jacob Weiss's father's name correct? Franz Weiss arrived in this country in 1854, at the port of Galveston, Texas. The two Jacob's arrived at the Port of New Orleans on Nov. 17, 1839.

It would seem that Texas played some part in Jacob Waltz's life as well.

Interesting inconsistencies.

You said:

"Interesting that a hoaxer would zero in on this canyon."

What is even more interesting, is that the Stone Maps create a line to the same canyon. Those two lines cross each other at about the 4200 ft. elevation line. There are two small peaks that both lines go through, just before converging. Miner's Needle is in a southern direction from this saddle.

All of this can be found on........Sorry folks. That's just "too much information".

You may be the only one who realizes how close that comment is.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; could franz wiess have been an uncle of the jake waltz or wiesser?? Was the 2 jakes kin folk,s ??? bill