Bill,
You raise some interesting questions that should have been asked, I doubt they were. It would be interesting to know what claims either one of them filed after ruths death, for that matter Tex Barckley as well.
Lets say Purnell and Keenan were involved, could they have pulled it off by themselves? If not who would their accomplice have been? If Tex was involved it would have been after the fact.
When did this information about Tex telling Gassler about him finding the body surface? Why would Tex tell him that?
Rochha
Purnell and Keenan….what ever happened to them?
To answer rochha's question: Tex told Walt Gassler that back in the 1940s. That appears in Gassler's manuscript - which is available from the Superstition Mountain Museum bookstore. Helen Corbin also used sections of Gassler's manuscript in her first book, "Curse of the Dutchman's Gold." And her book had that part in it about Tex telling Walt Gassler he had moved the body.
Why? Because Tex supposedly found the body up on Peter's Mesa - and he had cattle up there. If the body were found, the authorities would be all over the place and cause his cattle to run off. Believe it or not. That is what Barkley told Gassler. Why did Tex say anything? Because according to Gassler, Tex liked him (Gassler) and shared much information with him.
Why? Because Tex supposedly found the body up on Peter's Mesa - and he had cattle up there. If the body were found, the authorities would be all over the place and cause his cattle to run off. Believe it or not. That is what Barkley told Gassler. Why did Tex say anything? Because according to Gassler, Tex liked him (Gassler) and shared much information with him.
S.C.
Thanks for the response.....Ok, I can see that about the cattle, makes sense. So, Tex found the body of Ruth, did he say that he had been murdered? And did Tex have an idea as to who did it.? I assume that his head was still attatched and that happened afterwards? Wasn’t Tex the
one that actually found Ruths other body parts?
Did he collect the reward that was offered?
I was at the museum that other day and bought some books, Helens was not one of them. I will get that one soon and read it as well.
Rochha
Thanks for the response.....Ok, I can see that about the cattle, makes sense. So, Tex found the body of Ruth, did he say that he had been murdered? And did Tex have an idea as to who did it.? I assume that his head was still attatched and that happened afterwards? Wasn’t Tex the
one that actually found Ruths other body parts?
Did he collect the reward that was offered?
I was at the museum that other day and bought some books, Helens was not one of them. I will get that one soon and read it as well.
Rochha
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bill
i repeat i did not attack hrdlicka, iwasrepeating merely what was in a short reviewof abook called"the larsen r bay repatriation project"as i remember the title. itcentredaroundallegations ifi recall correctly that he"repatriated" theremains ofnatives ,some whodsay illegally, although that viewwas disputed, but apparently without villagers permission anyway. some of his colleagues described him as notonly arrogant, but slipshod too. now i didnt writethe book i knownot whether its true or not, but all i can say is that it wasnt a dime novel kind of book. thereason i mentioned it in first place is that hrdlickas verdict is considered sacrosanct, and never seems to be questioned. remember it was even questioned at the timewhether or not it was even ruths skull. arizona republic dec14th 1931readsthus in part "pheonix patholiogists yesterday continued examinations of skull and comparisons with photos ofruth butlast night had reached no more def conclusions than they offered saturday night"itwent on"the consensus was that skull had enough determinable points similarity to ruths, yet conditions were such that it might be of considerabley more age than couldpossibly be that ofruth"
i fail to see EWHY these pathologists,the coroner, thepolice, their underlings,overlingsand a few more inbetween would embark on a"cover up" of the factsof the "bullet holes" in ruths skull. butnot only that, after the authorities have cometo theirdecision i.e deathby natural causes" lo andbehold along comes one ofthe countries most eminent authorities in that department andsays yourewrong ruth was shot (probabley lol) what happens then? another enquiry? no! nothing! nothing at all! some verdict! some conspiracy!
but theorists always look for the complicated explanation when the simple one will suffice.itsells papers...itsells books.
enough of the fantastic has been written and said about both ruth and the mine,how about alittle sensible thought? if all the hyperbole wasextracted theredbe not a great deal to talk about. any treasure story is like a seed, plant it and in 50 years the plant hasgrown into a giant tree. according to family members the story in the 40s wasmerely 3 sacks of gold ore waltz had stashed in the hills, now look at the story!
rocha
the innuendo questionu asked i cant answer ,but its no secret i assure you.
i repeat i did not attack hrdlicka, iwasrepeating merely what was in a short reviewof abook called"the larsen r bay repatriation project"as i remember the title. itcentredaroundallegations ifi recall correctly that he"repatriated" theremains ofnatives ,some whodsay illegally, although that viewwas disputed, but apparently without villagers permission anyway. some of his colleagues described him as notonly arrogant, but slipshod too. now i didnt writethe book i knownot whether its true or not, but all i can say is that it wasnt a dime novel kind of book. thereason i mentioned it in first place is that hrdlickas verdict is considered sacrosanct, and never seems to be questioned. remember it was even questioned at the timewhether or not it was even ruths skull. arizona republic dec14th 1931readsthus in part "pheonix patholiogists yesterday continued examinations of skull and comparisons with photos ofruth butlast night had reached no more def conclusions than they offered saturday night"itwent on"the consensus was that skull had enough determinable points similarity to ruths, yet conditions were such that it might be of considerabley more age than couldpossibly be that ofruth"
i fail to see EWHY these pathologists,the coroner, thepolice, their underlings,overlingsand a few more inbetween would embark on a"cover up" of the factsof the "bullet holes" in ruths skull. butnot only that, after the authorities have cometo theirdecision i.e deathby natural causes" lo andbehold along comes one ofthe countries most eminent authorities in that department andsays yourewrong ruth was shot (probabley lol) what happens then? another enquiry? no! nothing! nothing at all! some verdict! some conspiracy!
but theorists always look for the complicated explanation when the simple one will suffice.itsells papers...itsells books.
enough of the fantastic has been written and said about both ruth and the mine,how about alittle sensible thought? if all the hyperbole wasextracted theredbe not a great deal to talk about. any treasure story is like a seed, plant it and in 50 years the plant hasgrown into a giant tree. according to family members the story in the 40s wasmerely 3 sacks of gold ore waltz had stashed in the hills, now look at the story!
rocha
the innuendo questionu asked i cant answer ,but its no secret i assure you.
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Ded,
Thanks for the advice and the response, I dont entirely believe everything that I read in the newspapers, remember they are in the business to sell them. As I recall I believe that I read other Doctors as well looked at the skull and determined to that it was a gun shot wound.
It would appear on the surface maybe Hrdlicka was trying to make a name for himself who knows, I don’t think one would put his reputation on the line just to make a headline, or would he?
I f eel if animals had made the damage to the skull there would be bite marks, but none of the Doctors that examined the skull ever described that.
Ruth very well could have been killed due to unwanted publicity to the Superstitions, and not for a map. After all many people had claimed to have a map and they weren’t killed. I think this goes beyond what we all see on the surface.
Still can’t help but feel that Purnell and Keenan had something to do with it, has anyone ever heard of Antigua tunnels before? They supposedly are located at the back end of Bluff Springs.
Rochha
Thanks for the advice and the response, I dont entirely believe everything that I read in the newspapers, remember they are in the business to sell them. As I recall I believe that I read other Doctors as well looked at the skull and determined to that it was a gun shot wound.
It would appear on the surface maybe Hrdlicka was trying to make a name for himself who knows, I don’t think one would put his reputation on the line just to make a headline, or would he?
I f eel if animals had made the damage to the skull there would be bite marks, but none of the Doctors that examined the skull ever described that.
Ruth very well could have been killed due to unwanted publicity to the Superstitions, and not for a map. After all many people had claimed to have a map and they weren’t killed. I think this goes beyond what we all see on the surface.
Still can’t help but feel that Purnell and Keenan had something to do with it, has anyone ever heard of Antigua tunnels before? They supposedly are located at the back end of Bluff Springs.
Rochha
ruth map
DED; I wonder why you keep throwing smoke on the ruth investigation? I looked and seen the hole so I know it was murder..For some reason you do not like for us to dwelve into this matter, WHY? is some of them KIN to you? ROCHHA; We have 9 who died by gun shot wound,s out there in the sup,s And in every case it would be ruled a suicide or accident. ONE man was shot in the top of his head and it was ruled an accident?? Everyone who died was from out of state and ruled accident or suicide. Very peculier to me?? READ all the info on the sup,s that you can get your hand,s on. It may be right or may be wrong but you have a brain to reason out what does not make any sense. RUTH; was not killed for what had BUT for what they thought he had..SOME of those people at the time had looked all their lives for the mine and they just was not going to allow some one from who knows where come in and take it, They feel like it belong,s to them.. Bill
Actually DED has made a good point about things not being hashed out in full (on this forum at least) about the Ruth killing. Seems that if questions are asked about seemingly logical candidates for shooters or accomplices...certain folks get themselves into a snit.
Simply look at the actions of folks after the killing and then dig into what local law enforcement officials said or thought afterwards. Thats an interesting road to go down......
Simply look at the actions of folks after the killing and then dig into what local law enforcement officials said or thought afterwards. Thats an interesting road to go down......
Bill,
Why yes indeed it would in interesting reading about what you just described. I think it would also be neat to see if any of these people filed claims after his death and where. I have read a lot about maps Ruth had, has anyone ever postivily been able to determine which one Ruth supposedly had with him?
I know this subject has been pounded a lot from previous posts, I should have read some of the other posts before starting this thread because some of my questions were answered. I feel kinda bad for the Ruth family, it seems no one took them seriously when he was murdered. At least that is how I see it.
Knowing who all was at the ranch the time Ruth was there may provide more clues as to Mr. “ x “.
I think his actual time of death in this mystery is the real clue, he was alive up until the 18th. If he was killed between the 18th and 20th. Purnell and Keenan are ruled out, along with Tex Barckley because of their alibi’s. I think Purnell and Keenan were involved with a third party. What an easier target than Adolph Ruth out of his element and maps that he says lead to a gold mine during the depression time!
There does seem to be a lot of suicides out in those Mountains for some reason, I read about them in the book “ The Treasure of the Superstion Mountains “ by Gary Jenkins.
P,
I take it you have been down that road before?
Rochha
Why yes indeed it would in interesting reading about what you just described. I think it would also be neat to see if any of these people filed claims after his death and where. I have read a lot about maps Ruth had, has anyone ever postivily been able to determine which one Ruth supposedly had with him?
I know this subject has been pounded a lot from previous posts, I should have read some of the other posts before starting this thread because some of my questions were answered. I feel kinda bad for the Ruth family, it seems no one took them seriously when he was murdered. At least that is how I see it.
Knowing who all was at the ranch the time Ruth was there may provide more clues as to Mr. “ x “.
I think his actual time of death in this mystery is the real clue, he was alive up until the 18th. If he was killed between the 18th and 20th. Purnell and Keenan are ruled out, along with Tex Barckley because of their alibi’s. I think Purnell and Keenan were involved with a third party. What an easier target than Adolph Ruth out of his element and maps that he says lead to a gold mine during the depression time!
There does seem to be a lot of suicides out in those Mountains for some reason, I read about them in the book “ The Treasure of the Superstion Mountains “ by Gary Jenkins.
P,
I take it you have been down that road before?
Rochha
Rochha,rochha wrote: ... I have read a lot about maps Ruth had, has anyone ever postivily been able to determine which one Ruth supposedly had with him?
...Knowing who all was at the ranch the time Ruth was there may provide more clues as to Mr. “ x “.
... Purnell and Keenan are ruled out, along with Tex Barckley because of their alibi’s.
...There does seem to be a lot of suicides out in those Mountains for some reason, I read about them in the book “ The Treasure of the Superstion Mountains “ by Gary Jenkins.
Just to interject a little mystery:
- There is someone whom I believe does know which map Ruth had with him.
- There is also someone whom I believe knows who killed Ruth.
- Keenan and Purnell's alibi's don't mean anything. They could have easily ridden back in, capped Ruth, and ridden out, in plenty of time to meet their girlfriends for partying. In fact, that would be a good plan.
- Yeah, a lot of suicides. One kid killed himself by shooting himself in the forehead with a gun of a much larger caliber than the one he actually had, if I recall correctly.
Everyone is a suspect! It was Col. Mustard in the Library with the Gun!
>>I take it you have been down that road before?<<
Well lets just say I have done a heap of pondering on this subject. To me, the identity of the shooter is obvious, logical and fills in all the blanks. Course, I could be wrong as all hell (am I allowed to say that on this forum?)...and will never know for sure.
I believe your Keenan/Purnell- 3rd party theory has merit.
Peter
Well lets just say I have done a heap of pondering on this subject. To me, the identity of the shooter is obvious, logical and fills in all the blanks. Course, I could be wrong as all hell (am I allowed to say that on this forum?)...and will never know for sure.
I believe your Keenan/Purnell- 3rd party theory has merit.
Peter
ruth map
WELL , acording to walt when he had got disgusted enough to quite looking. TEX wanted him to stay with it, He started to show walt something BUT BROWNIE and his son BILL came up close to them at the time and he changed his mind and said he would show him later. SO who was it that TEX didn,t trust ?? his son BILL or BROWNIE ?? or BOTH ? I think that a third party maybe incouraged Parnell and Kenan to take the RUTH to the camp where he would be alone. The third party went across to the camp by horse. Where they took RUTH by horse looking for the mine. I think they made him go because he didn,t take his teeth, Hiking boot,s or water bottle, He just had on thin slipper,s or town shoes. I don,t know about the gun. He had to go by horse because he was found too far away for a man his age and condition and foot wear. That rough ground would surely chew light shoes up real fast. good question boys WHEN TEX took out to where RUTH was camped he said he had bad feeling,s about it so he already suspected what he would find when he got there. Then there was the heat of the summer, would he delibertly leave his water behind? Bill
ruth map
PETE; remember all of us do not have your paper work so we are limited as to what we have or someone like you tells us. DED; When TEX found the body of ruth the 1st time he said that ruth had been shot while he was sitting on a rock and the force of the bullet just knoxed him off and on his side. I beleive this is one of the true points that we do have about the murder. I feel like TEX would recognize a gun shot wound and he had another man with him so for my part this leaves no dought as to murder. BILL
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bill,
im not throwing smoke on anything,im not trying to stop discussion on this subject as uyuou suggest,in fact i welcome it. and no im notrelated to any ofthe participants either,that ispretty preposterous. the truth is surely,that NONE of the so called alibis mean a thing do they? because nobody knows the exact date whenruth died,its just conjecture based primarily (but not exclusively) on ruths (supposed) last diary entry.or rather adatedletter to his wife.
gasslers document ,whereherelates barkleys removal of body etc i dont believe is a reliable source. if the re was indeed a "cover up" by the authorities as some suggest,the questionwouldneed to beasked just who was the cover up designed to protect? purnell and keenan? i doubt whether either of them would be regarded as important enough,or have any "pull" in high places.so the question remains who? werethe authorities incompetent? not able to discern the differencebetween a bullet hole and a natural injury? werethey corrupt? and if so ,what purpose did their corrupt actions serve?
looking from another viewpoint as far as"alibis" are concerned,some people have said ,not without some justification, that "certain alibis" werent what they seem. so anybody who subscribes to themurder theory i feel should not cross ANY suspect offtheir list basedpurely on any "alibis presented. i suspect peter at least,judging from what hes said,would agree with that statement.
can anyone perhaps give their opinions as to why the authorities( if ruths skull had such obvious bullet holes aswere told) came to their death by natural causes verdict?
im not throwing smoke on anything,im not trying to stop discussion on this subject as uyuou suggest,in fact i welcome it. and no im notrelated to any ofthe participants either,that ispretty preposterous. the truth is surely,that NONE of the so called alibis mean a thing do they? because nobody knows the exact date whenruth died,its just conjecture based primarily (but not exclusively) on ruths (supposed) last diary entry.or rather adatedletter to his wife.
gasslers document ,whereherelates barkleys removal of body etc i dont believe is a reliable source. if the re was indeed a "cover up" by the authorities as some suggest,the questionwouldneed to beasked just who was the cover up designed to protect? purnell and keenan? i doubt whether either of them would be regarded as important enough,or have any "pull" in high places.so the question remains who? werethe authorities incompetent? not able to discern the differencebetween a bullet hole and a natural injury? werethey corrupt? and if so ,what purpose did their corrupt actions serve?
looking from another viewpoint as far as"alibis" are concerned,some people have said ,not without some justification, that "certain alibis" werent what they seem. so anybody who subscribes to themurder theory i feel should not cross ANY suspect offtheir list basedpurely on any "alibis presented. i suspect peter at least,judging from what hes said,would agree with that statement.
can anyone perhaps give their opinions as to why the authorities( if ruths skull had such obvious bullet holes aswere told) came to their death by natural causes verdict?
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wiz
it was a serious question,no one seems able to give a reasonable and believable answer to it. your reply shows youre unable to either...tis a pity cos its a valid question. if your reply to that (if indeed there is one) is a prelude to another flame war, im sorry but i wont respond.
....but then again i might
it was a serious question,no one seems able to give a reasonable and believable answer to it. your reply shows youre unable to either...tis a pity cos its a valid question. if your reply to that (if indeed there is one) is a prelude to another flame war, im sorry but i wont respond.
....but then again i mightruth map
DED; as for the verdict on his death; If he was murdered they have to have an investigation, if he died by natural causes they could all go back to sitting in the shade and pick their noses and in a little while things would settle back to normal. Bill
I know it was a serious question, and I know no one has answered it. I don't have an answer either.dutch elm disease wrote:wiz
it was a serious question,no one seems able to give a reasonable and believable answer to it. your reply shows youre unable to either...tis a pity cos its a valid question. if your reply to that (if indeed there is one) is a prelude to another flame war, im sorry but i wont respond.
It was a joke. Unclench a little. Have a laugh, or else ignore it.
But as you already know, I'm not inclined to take any crap from you. So let's both back off.
ruth map
Rochha; acording to ramases when ruth came to tex at the ranch there were 3 people with tex at the time that ruth begain talking about a map from the paralta,s to the mine. This was supposedly the first true map to surface on the mine. The 3 men were the 2 jailbirds and brownie holmes!!! Bill
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