All,
If I were looking for the real story of Adolph Ruth, which trail he took into the mountains, where he camped, where his skull was really found, where his body was found and the true circumstances surrounding his death, I would try to fine the taped interviews that were done with Gertrude Barkley.....if they still exist.
Anyone who has those taped interviews, has a treasure of a different sort.
Joe Ribaudo
Ruth's Trail
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Gene martin
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Grandpa Jacobs not so lost Sombrero Mine
I'm not one to make waves "But" Helen Corbins books are as informative as Bob will allow Her to be and she even states that no one is telling you everything,They believe or hope to find it themselfs! Sim Elys book is a reporters view as he lived it with his friend and didn't want there story forgotten.Like the stone maps say {BUSCA EL COAZON} SEARCH THE HEART!
Each of us should search our own Heart's for Faith and not the greed the our Heart's! "BUSCA EL COAZON DE SANTA FE" [ Search The Heart of the Holy Faith]
Please visit www.elcoazon.com it is yours too.
Gene
Each of us should search our own Heart's for Faith and not the greed the our Heart's! "BUSCA EL COAZON DE SANTA FE" [ Search The Heart of the Holy Faith]
Please visit www.elcoazon.com it is yours too.
Gene
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Gene martin
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Grandpa Jacob's Mine
P.S. Check out YouTube for EL COAZON!
Gene
Gene
How did Adolph Ruth reach Boulder Spring? (Willow Spring)
I had hoped, that along with the newspaper accounts, someone else would tackle this subject but no one seems to be forthcoming so here goes. 
This has previously been a topic of a lot of discussion. Many modern day Dutch Hunters feel the answer is obvious. Ruth, Purnell and Keenan reached Willow Spring via First Water Ranch. A very formidable group which includes Tom Kollenborn, Dr. Glover, Gregory Davis, Steve Creager along with several others have expressed this view.
I didn’t really understand why it was particularly important to the story but recently, while trying to understand the Ruth timeline and events, it has taken on more significance for me.
From my understanding, and I could be wrong, the First Water entry argument revolved around the fact that it is the only “practical” way to reach Willow Springs. I don’t remember seeing anyone on the forum offer contemporary documentation that suggested the First Water route was used? I do know that Barry Storm told the story that Adolph drove around to First Water and talked Keenan and Purnell, who were camped there, into taking him to Willow Spring. Maybe that is where the story springs from?
Gregory Davis did offer some encouragement this spring when I mentioned the topic. He thought it might be worthwhile to revisit.
There are numerous references that refer to the Barkley ranch in the newspapers. They always appear to indicate the “U” ranch and never First Water. First Water ranch is always spelled out.
I have collected several references in newspapers and in Erwin Ruth’s manuscript. To me, they all seem to indicate that Adolph entered the mountains from Barkley’s “U” Ranch.
I will offer only three of the accounts in detail.
This is Erwin Ruth’s account from his manuscript “The Story of the Mexican Gold Mine.”
I’m sure I haven’t convinced anyone else one way or the other. But, in my own mind, until someone offers something more concrete, I’m satisfied they came over the southern route.
I know some have hinted at the possible route from the south but have never gone into much detail. The question I have for them is where, on a topo map, would the party have begun their descent into West Boulder?
Garry
This has previously been a topic of a lot of discussion. Many modern day Dutch Hunters feel the answer is obvious. Ruth, Purnell and Keenan reached Willow Spring via First Water Ranch. A very formidable group which includes Tom Kollenborn, Dr. Glover, Gregory Davis, Steve Creager along with several others have expressed this view.
I didn’t really understand why it was particularly important to the story but recently, while trying to understand the Ruth timeline and events, it has taken on more significance for me.
From my understanding, and I could be wrong, the First Water entry argument revolved around the fact that it is the only “practical” way to reach Willow Springs. I don’t remember seeing anyone on the forum offer contemporary documentation that suggested the First Water route was used? I do know that Barry Storm told the story that Adolph drove around to First Water and talked Keenan and Purnell, who were camped there, into taking him to Willow Spring. Maybe that is where the story springs from?
Gregory Davis did offer some encouragement this spring when I mentioned the topic. He thought it might be worthwhile to revisit.
There are numerous references that refer to the Barkley ranch in the newspapers. They always appear to indicate the “U” ranch and never First Water. First Water ranch is always spelled out.
I have collected several references in newspapers and in Erwin Ruth’s manuscript. To me, they all seem to indicate that Adolph entered the mountains from Barkley’s “U” Ranch.
I will offer only three of the accounts in detail.
This is Erwin Ruth’s account from his manuscript “The Story of the Mexican Gold Mine.”
Phoenix Gazette, July 15 (Excerpt from the caption of a Photo of Purnell and Keenan)So on May 13th, with five burros and two mountaineers as guides, he set out with his “pack” of equipment for the very heart of the Superstition Mountains. His guides, hardened men, were L. F. Purnell and Jack Keenan who had been prospecting in the mountains and doing odd jobs occasionally at the Barkley Ranches.
At an elevation of some 4,000 feet, my father traversed a lofty and very rugged pass over the highest of the Superstition Mountains. From this roof of the world, the panorama spread before him, resembles a veritable paradise, the ever changing color of the peaks as the clouds rolled before the exceedingly bright sun penetrates the terra, revealing to the eye every color through the shadows of the deepest canyons. The tall spiral peak of “El Sombrero” or Weaver’s Needle as it was later named, rising to a height of 4,535 feet dominates the view from this elevated pass.
A thousand feet below, Boulder Spring was reached, situated in the deep and boulder choked, West Boulder Canyon, about seven miles north and east of the “U” ranch. Here, father made his camp.
Prescott Courier July 17 (Dispatch from First Water Ranch)Lower, left, L. F. Purnall and, right, Jack Keenan, cowboy prospectors who packed Mr. Ruth over southern pass to the water hole in the canyon where the camp was made.
There are at least half dozen other contemporary accounts which imply, to me at least, that Adolph Ruth entered from the “U” ranch and none that I can find indicating otherwise.Ruth is last known to have been seen alive on June 14, by L. F. Purnall and Jack Keenan, who left him at his camp near Weaver’s Needle after packing in his supplies from the Barkley ranch, across the Superstition range from here. On June 15, he left his last mark in his diary…………
I’m sure I haven’t convinced anyone else one way or the other. But, in my own mind, until someone offers something more concrete, I’m satisfied they came over the southern route.
I know some have hinted at the possible route from the south but have never gone into much detail. The question I have for them is where, on a topo map, would the party have begun their descent into West Boulder?
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Ruth And Where He Danced.....
Garry,
Hope all is well with you and Carol.
Actually, I have never believed the First Water story. I have written that opinion here, and elsewhere.
I believe all First Water accounts originate with Tex Barkley. If Keenen and Purnell made such a statement, I believe it was at the suggestion of Tex. They were in a bit of a pickle at the time, and would have done or said whatever they were told.
They both seem to have dropped off the face of the earth during the subsequent events. (Search)
I was told by Greg Davis that Tom Kollenborn, who was a good friend of Tex, asked him directlly about Ruth coming in from First Water, and Tex swore to Tom that's the trail they took.
The first question that comes to mind is: Why was there a question???
There are some obvious answers as to why the way they got to Willow Spring might be a "sensitive" topic.
At this point in time (kind'a late) it's all conjecture and opinion, but like you, I saw the evidence that is making you wonder.
Don't let anyone talk you out of pursuing this line of research. It will be coming, but probably in private. My making a comment like this may cause a delay in that happening.
Good hunting.
Take care,
Joe
Hope all is well with you and Carol.
Actually, I have never believed the First Water story. I have written that opinion here, and elsewhere.
I believe all First Water accounts originate with Tex Barkley. If Keenen and Purnell made such a statement, I believe it was at the suggestion of Tex. They were in a bit of a pickle at the time, and would have done or said whatever they were told.
They both seem to have dropped off the face of the earth during the subsequent events. (Search)
I was told by Greg Davis that Tom Kollenborn, who was a good friend of Tex, asked him directlly about Ruth coming in from First Water, and Tex swore to Tom that's the trail they took.
The first question that comes to mind is: Why was there a question???
There are some obvious answers as to why the way they got to Willow Spring might be a "sensitive" topic.
At this point in time (kind'a late) it's all conjecture and opinion, but like you, I saw the evidence that is making you wonder.
Don't let anyone talk you out of pursuing this line of research. It will be coming, but probably in private. My making a comment like this may cause a delay in that happening.
Good hunting.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Which Way????
Garry,
Years ago, I discussed this subject with Uncle Chuck. He told me he had ridden over Freemont Pass, worked his way west, onto the ridge that seperates East and West Boulder Canyons, and down off the ridge into West Boulder. You would end up just south of Willow Spring.
It's also possible to reverse that ride. Tracy Hawkins has confirmed that he and Ernie Provence had also made that same trip, more than once. You would travel a little over 5 miles, but it would have seemed much longer to Ruth. It would also closely follow Ruth's description of his ride.
I have hiked it with a pack on my back. Seemed like a logical way for them to go. That was over thirty years ago.
I believe Ruth also made that ride.....once. In the process, I believe, he saw what he believed he was looking for. That ride would have taken him very close to the 4,000' elevation that Erwin Ruth mentions. Try getting close to that elevation coming in from First Water.
Why would they say he came in from First Water?????
If they believed Ruth actually had something worth being killed for, and if he was a little too verbose about what he saw on the ride, perhaps they did not want subsequent searchers.....for the body as well as the LDM, to pay close attention to Ruth's real trail.
What he saw, may very well have been of little or no worth, but his killers may have had no way of knowing that. History may have been changed one word, one article and one story at a time.
Take care,
Joe
Years ago, I discussed this subject with Uncle Chuck. He told me he had ridden over Freemont Pass, worked his way west, onto the ridge that seperates East and West Boulder Canyons, and down off the ridge into West Boulder. You would end up just south of Willow Spring.
It's also possible to reverse that ride. Tracy Hawkins has confirmed that he and Ernie Provence had also made that same trip, more than once. You would travel a little over 5 miles, but it would have seemed much longer to Ruth. It would also closely follow Ruth's description of his ride.
I have hiked it with a pack on my back. Seemed like a logical way for them to go. That was over thirty years ago.
I believe Ruth also made that ride.....once. In the process, I believe, he saw what he believed he was looking for. That ride would have taken him very close to the 4,000' elevation that Erwin Ruth mentions. Try getting close to that elevation coming in from First Water.
Why would they say he came in from First Water?????
If they believed Ruth actually had something worth being killed for, and if he was a little too verbose about what he saw on the ride, perhaps they did not want subsequent searchers.....for the body as well as the LDM, to pay close attention to Ruth's real trail.
What he saw, may very well have been of little or no worth, but his killers may have had no way of knowing that. History may have been changed one word, one article and one story at a time.
Take care,
Joe
The First Water Angle
Joe,
Thanks for the references to the actual trail. Heck, Chuck Ribaudo might have been able to take his car in from Barley’s Ranch to Willow Spring for all I know. Carol and I hiked from First Water to Second Water (Boulder Creek), and your story was in the back of my mind all the way!
I see no indication at all that Keenan and Purnell ever suggested to anyone that they came in through First Water. All of the newspaper accounts are contemporary and all either state or strongly imply it was from the south. The First Water angle seems to have come later? Barry Storm, in his 1939 book, seems to be the one who, at least publically, stated that Ruth entered from First Water.
Another newspaper entry that was interesting refers to Keenan’s camp. It implies that Keenan had some semblance of a permanent camp at the “U” Ranch. Adolph must have had his own camp set up there also. I didn’t get the idea that any of them would have been staying in the ranch house.
Arizona Republic July 10
One of the things that gives me pause when you suggest that Tex Barkley was the source of the First Water route is that, apparently, both Bark and Ely wrote that Ruth entered from the south and Bark, at least, had talked directly to Tex shortly after the Ruth incident. This would have been about 1932.
Also it would seem rather late for Tex to be trying to mislead someone like Kollenborn. (Tex died in 1955.) Tom worked the summers of 53, 54 and 55, apparently while in high school, and by his own account was a greenhorn?
You wrote;
Garry
Thanks for the references to the actual trail. Heck, Chuck Ribaudo might have been able to take his car in from Barley’s Ranch to Willow Spring for all I know. Carol and I hiked from First Water to Second Water (Boulder Creek), and your story was in the back of my mind all the way!
I see no indication at all that Keenan and Purnell ever suggested to anyone that they came in through First Water. All of the newspaper accounts are contemporary and all either state or strongly imply it was from the south. The First Water angle seems to have come later? Barry Storm, in his 1939 book, seems to be the one who, at least publically, stated that Ruth entered from First Water.
Another newspaper entry that was interesting refers to Keenan’s camp. It implies that Keenan had some semblance of a permanent camp at the “U” Ranch. Adolph must have had his own camp set up there also. I didn’t get the idea that any of them would have been staying in the ranch house.
Arizona Republic July 10
I added [Adolph Ruth] for clarity.The prospector [Adolph Ruth] entered the mountains from Keenan’s camp on the south side and pushed on to his own camp in a direction, which if continued would have brought him out on the Apache highway, near Goldfield.
One of the things that gives me pause when you suggest that Tex Barkley was the source of the First Water route is that, apparently, both Bark and Ely wrote that Ruth entered from the south and Bark, at least, had talked directly to Tex shortly after the Ruth incident. This would have been about 1932.
Also it would seem rather late for Tex to be trying to mislead someone like Kollenborn. (Tex died in 1955.) Tom worked the summers of 53, 54 and 55, apparently while in high school, and by his own account was a greenhorn?
You wrote;
There are references to both aiding in the search for Ruth. They were certainly there for the photographs with Erwin, In fact, I believe that Erwin obtained much of his detailed information from the pair. I suspect he grilled them pretty hard?They [Keenan and Purnell] both seem to have dropped off the face of the earth during the subsequent events. (Search)
That certainly isn’t my first question, but I can’t even imagine what the implication might be. I guess it’s just not obvious to me that people have all of these hidden agendas.The first question that comes to mind is: Why was there a question???
Joe, I am not wondering anymore! I am satisfied they came in from the south!At this point in time (kind'a late) it's all conjecture and opinion, but like you, I saw the evidence that is making you wonder.
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Which Way Did They Go????
Garry,
Neither Jim Bark or Sims Ely "wrote that Ruth entered from the south".
Jim Bark wrote: [...Tex's first inquiry was, "Where is the Doctor?" The prospectors replied they had packed the old fellow and his outfit over the mountain as he had asked them to do so,......." I believe the part I highlighted is important. Thought so thirty-five years ago.
Jim Bark continues: "He ordered them to ride right over and bring him back to the house. They left for over the mountain......"
No mention is ever made of First Water Ranch, but that can be explained by some very knowledgeable men. Interestingly enough, Bark writes "Half Circle U" throughout his account. I assume that is a mistake made by someone making a copy of the manuscript, and that's the copy I have.
Ely does write this: "In making his way to this ranch, Ruth was but following the route of gold-seekers before him. Located on the westerly edge of the Superstitions, in a valley some two miles wide by five miles long, the headquarters of this ranch is the likely take-off point for all who would enter the mountains from the south."
While they don't say so directly, it seems likely they thought Ruth rode out of the Quarter Circle U and north into the mountains. I have believed that since Hector was a pup.
Take care,
Joe
Neither Jim Bark or Sims Ely "wrote that Ruth entered from the south".
Jim Bark wrote: [...Tex's first inquiry was, "Where is the Doctor?" The prospectors replied they had packed the old fellow and his outfit over the mountain as he had asked them to do so,......." I believe the part I highlighted is important. Thought so thirty-five years ago.
Jim Bark continues: "He ordered them to ride right over and bring him back to the house. They left for over the mountain......"
No mention is ever made of First Water Ranch, but that can be explained by some very knowledgeable men. Interestingly enough, Bark writes "Half Circle U" throughout his account. I assume that is a mistake made by someone making a copy of the manuscript, and that's the copy I have.
Ely does write this: "In making his way to this ranch, Ruth was but following the route of gold-seekers before him. Located on the westerly edge of the Superstitions, in a valley some two miles wide by five miles long, the headquarters of this ranch is the likely take-off point for all who would enter the mountains from the south."
While they don't say so directly, it seems likely they thought Ruth rode out of the Quarter Circle U and north into the mountains. I have believed that since Hector was a pup.
Take care,
Joe
Entered from the South
Sorry about that.
Now if my geography is correct, that should mean the same as "rode north into the mountains?"
My point is that the First Water entry story doesn't seem, to me at least, to have come from Tex Barkley. Otherwise Bark and Ely should have picked up on it? Also it didn't come from Keenan and Purnell.
Barry doesn't tell us where his story came from? If we discount Barry as a non player, then it would be anybody's guess what the story's origin was 25 years later?
I'm happy with my timeline and how Ruth reached Boulder Spring and not terribly interested in the hidden agendas.
My "next" question would be much more mundane. When was Adolph Ruth's camp dismantled at Willow Spring, and by whom?
Garry
I would have been better served to say, "both Bark and Ely implied that Ruth entered the mountains from the south"Neither Jim Bark or Sims Ely "wrote that Ruth entered from the south".
Now if my geography is correct, that should mean the same as "rode north into the mountains?"
My point is that the First Water entry story doesn't seem, to me at least, to have come from Tex Barkley. Otherwise Bark and Ely should have picked up on it? Also it didn't come from Keenan and Purnell.
Barry doesn't tell us where his story came from? If we discount Barry as a non player, then it would be anybody's guess what the story's origin was 25 years later?
I'm happy with my timeline and how Ruth reached Boulder Spring and not terribly interested in the hidden agendas.
My "next" question would be much more mundane. When was Adolph Ruth's camp dismantled at Willow Spring, and by whom?
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Hidden Agenda.....
Garry,
I agree 100% with your conclusions about what took place. Always have.
The fact that we have concluded that Ruth came into Willow Spring by another route than what has been attested to, by all who were there at the time, is of little or no importance whatsoever.......without considering why the story was changed.
Without exploring "hidden agendas" we are left with nowhere to go with our theories. Our careful research is really pointless. Can we solve the mystery of it all....probably not.
Have we reached the end of the story? I would tryto encourage you with my favorite quote: "Let the journey be your destination". If there is to be no "end place", so be it.
It seems to me, considering we both accept the trail that Ruth took into the mountains, that the only question that remains (for us), is why is there another story? If Tex moved the body and laid down a smokescreen, who or what was he protecting?
Perhaps the answer has nothing to do with Keenen or Purnell.
Take care,
Joe
I agree 100% with your conclusions about what took place. Always have.
The fact that we have concluded that Ruth came into Willow Spring by another route than what has been attested to, by all who were there at the time, is of little or no importance whatsoever.......without considering why the story was changed.
Without exploring "hidden agendas" we are left with nowhere to go with our theories. Our careful research is really pointless. Can we solve the mystery of it all....probably not.
Have we reached the end of the story? I would tryto encourage you with my favorite quote: "Let the journey be your destination". If there is to be no "end place", so be it.
It seems to me, considering we both accept the trail that Ruth took into the mountains, that the only question that remains (for us), is why is there another story? If Tex moved the body and laid down a smokescreen, who or what was he protecting?
Perhaps the answer has nothing to do with Keenen or Purnell.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Entered from the South
novice wrote: My "next" question would be much more mundane. When was Adolph Ruth's camp dismantled at Willow Spring, and by whom?
Garry
And more importantly, like Zentull said, "why isn't there any pictures of Ruth's camp?"
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Randy,
I guess what’s “important” is in the eye of the beholder or what you are looking for.
Why would you suspect that there would be pictures of an empty camp site? Probably not very newsworthy and it would have been quite an effort to obtain those pictures. It took a single pack animal just to carry Newcomer’s photo gear. I believe you can speak from experience in respect to the effort required to reach Willow Springs?
There is in fact a picture of the campsite, but it was taken from an airplane about 2,000 feet plus above the site.
Some more of the types of questions I personally would like to have answers to.
1. Why would Adolph need 50 pounds of flour?
2. What would we expect to happen to a camp which had food and that was left unattended for several days at Willow Springs?
3. What did Adolph mean when he said; “I made a shelf of sticks wired together and tied them with the axe.”?
4. I still can't get a picture of what Adolph meant when he said there is water in front of me and water behind me?
5. Etc.
Garry
I guess what’s “important” is in the eye of the beholder or what you are looking for.
Why would you suspect that there would be pictures of an empty camp site? Probably not very newsworthy and it would have been quite an effort to obtain those pictures. It took a single pack animal just to carry Newcomer’s photo gear. I believe you can speak from experience in respect to the effort required to reach Willow Springs?
There is in fact a picture of the campsite, but it was taken from an airplane about 2,000 feet plus above the site.
Some more of the types of questions I personally would like to have answers to.
1. Why would Adolph need 50 pounds of flour?
2. What would we expect to happen to a camp which had food and that was left unattended for several days at Willow Springs?
3. What did Adolph mean when he said; “I made a shelf of sticks wired together and tied them with the axe.”?
4. I still can't get a picture of what Adolph meant when he said there is water in front of me and water behind me?
5. Etc.
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Water Front & Back....
Garry,
"I still can't get a picture of what Adolph meant when he said there is water in front of me and water behind me?"
I placed a picture in "Old Pictures". Many will recognize the spot. It's possible they dropped him in a place like that. Just after some rain, the water is all over West Boulder.
Joe
"I still can't get a picture of what Adolph meant when he said there is water in front of me and water behind me?"
I placed a picture in "Old Pictures". Many will recognize the spot. It's possible they dropped him in a place like that. Just after some rain, the water is all over West Boulder.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Ruth's Trail/Map
Since the topic is "Ruth's Trail", what if Adolph Ruth was on his "trail" all along. What if he had another map, which is what Erwin hinted at? If that's true, who has it now? If Holmes and Barkley burned the one they took from Ruth's remains, is it lost forever?
I believe it's possible that someone may have seen a copy of that map, and may have reproduced it. Not that many people had that kind of access.
Not only is it possible, I believe it's likely.
Joe Ribaudo
I believe it's possible that someone may have seen a copy of that map, and may have reproduced it. Not that many people had that kind of access.
Not only is it possible, I believe it's likely.
Joe Ribaudo
IF ruth had another map....IF ruth was on "his trail"...IF barkley and holmes burned the the ones they took from ruth....IF someone may have seen that map(IF it existed) ..IF it was reproduced...a lot of IFS there,too many to come to any realistic conclusion. anything is possible.....but likely?
Don update your email address
Joe,
Thanks for the Photo. I keep envisioning a spring with a pool of water.
By the way, who told the story that Brownie and Tex removed a map?
Garry
Thanks for the Photo. I keep envisioning a spring with a pool of water.
When were Barkley and Holmes supposed to have taken a map from Ruth’s remains? Surely anyone who has thought this whole scenario through can offer an approximate date. Seems like that would be important? Then we will at least have a starting point. The devil is usually in the details.If Holmes and Barkley burned the one they took from Ruth's remains
By the way, who told the story that Brownie and Tex removed a map?
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Who????
Morning Garry,
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Gregory E. Davis
Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tempe, Arizona, I am in the phone book
Posts: 74
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Good afternoon Aurum: Providing the following is true???, Here is what I understand to be the maps that Ruth had with him when he went into the mountains in 1931. 1. A topographic map of the area. 2. A map which the sheriff took from the body of Ruth and later used to try to find the mine. 3. A map which Barkley and Holmes found on the body and used for awhile to search for the mine. Realizing they would be prime suspects if they were caught with the map in their possession, they eventually burned it. 4. Pernell and his partner were also supposed to have a map that they either obtained from Ruth or got off his body. During a conversation with Richard Peck a number of years ago, he told me of a visit he had with Erwin Ruth. During that visit, Peck spread out on the floor a large number of maps and asked Erwin to select the maps he currently had or received from Mexico. Erwin picked out seven maps and said that these were the ones he had. I will have to look it up in my notes to see if Erwin indicated to Peck if they were the ones his father obtained in Mexico only, or were a combination of those and ones he (Erwin) had received after l931. One other item, which again I will have to look up in the Peck File, is a statement that Erwin made to Peck. It was either Erwin saw a map in the group that Peck had and stated that if he knew where that map came from, he would then know who killed his father or that there was one more map not in the group on the floor and he told Peck that if the missing map were found and who had it, he would then know who killed his father. I will get back to you on this when I get a chance to futher research these comments. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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If the comment in bold above is true, it seems obvious that Holmes and Barkley found the body....first. It seems unlikely that Tex is the "Barkley" mentioned.
There is a rumor, that Brownie mentions this story (in bold) in a tape recording. I still assume that Greg Davis has heard or has this tape....if it exists. While I believe it exists, I have not heard it myself.
Considering the history that has been presented on the death of Adolph Ruth, such a tape would place a sizeable speed bump in the story. I understand why the story would be buried.....along with Ruth, but it has more to do with respect for people who are still living, than it does with exposing the truth of the matter.
Others will have to make that judgement call, as I have little to no evidence of the facts. What I have said here is based on opinion formed from facts available to everyone and statements from reliable sources that should know.
In that, my story/opinion is no better or worse than what has been written.
Take care,
Joe
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Gregory E. Davis
Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tempe, Arizona, I am in the phone book
Posts: 74
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Good afternoon Aurum: Providing the following is true???, Here is what I understand to be the maps that Ruth had with him when he went into the mountains in 1931. 1. A topographic map of the area. 2. A map which the sheriff took from the body of Ruth and later used to try to find the mine. 3. A map which Barkley and Holmes found on the body and used for awhile to search for the mine. Realizing they would be prime suspects if they were caught with the map in their possession, they eventually burned it. 4. Pernell and his partner were also supposed to have a map that they either obtained from Ruth or got off his body. During a conversation with Richard Peck a number of years ago, he told me of a visit he had with Erwin Ruth. During that visit, Peck spread out on the floor a large number of maps and asked Erwin to select the maps he currently had or received from Mexico. Erwin picked out seven maps and said that these were the ones he had. I will have to look it up in my notes to see if Erwin indicated to Peck if they were the ones his father obtained in Mexico only, or were a combination of those and ones he (Erwin) had received after l931. One other item, which again I will have to look up in the Peck File, is a statement that Erwin made to Peck. It was either Erwin saw a map in the group that Peck had and stated that if he knew where that map came from, he would then know who killed his father or that there was one more map not in the group on the floor and he told Peck that if the missing map were found and who had it, he would then know who killed his father. I will get back to you on this when I get a chance to futher research these comments. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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If the comment in bold above is true, it seems obvious that Holmes and Barkley found the body....first. It seems unlikely that Tex is the "Barkley" mentioned.
There is a rumor, that Brownie mentions this story (in bold) in a tape recording. I still assume that Greg Davis has heard or has this tape....if it exists. While I believe it exists, I have not heard it myself.
Considering the history that has been presented on the death of Adolph Ruth, such a tape would place a sizeable speed bump in the story. I understand why the story would be buried.....along with Ruth, but it has more to do with respect for people who are still living, than it does with exposing the truth of the matter.
Others will have to make that judgement call, as I have little to no evidence of the facts. What I have said here is based on opinion formed from facts available to everyone and statements from reliable sources that should know.
In that, my story/opinion is no better or worse than what has been written.
Take care,
Joe
Did Adolph Make The Diary Entry?
I have been working on the details of a speculative scenario that I would like to offer as food for thought. It is not offered with tongue in cheek but in dead seriousness. The references have not been gathered and the research is not complete but you can get the gist of it. It could start with any number of questions but I have chosen the 50 pounds of flour.
QUESTION: Why did Adolph Ruth need 50 pounds of flour at his camp at Willow Springs?
ANSWER: He didn’t.
QUESTION: Given his documented meticulousness, why did he write as much in his diary?
ANSWER: He didn’t.
QUESTION: If Adolph didn’t make the diary entry, who did?
ANSWER: His son, Erwin Ruth.
QUESTION: Why would Erwin have created the entry?
ANSWER: The search for his father had lost steam and he needed to infuse fresh life into the search. He conveniently found the diary in his father’s camp under the pillow on his camp cot. For almost three weeks the other searchers had missed this piece of evidence. Erwin was a showman and one thing he understood was the value of publicity.
QUESTION: Did Erwin have the facts to forge such a note?
ANSWER: Yes, Erwin had been in Arizona for over a week and been in contact with all of the major players, including Keenan and Purnell. Much of the story could have come from them.
QUESTION: Did Erwin’s ploy have any unforeseen results?
ANSWER: He may have unwittingly aided in providing a portion of the alibi for Keenan and Purnell. The note indicates that they arrived at the camp on June 13, left Adolph and returned to the “U” ranch. The Ruth family certainly wasn’t satisfied with their alibi (Erwin still suspected they were somehow involved when he met with the DONS in 1946) but given the fact that Adolph had written the note stating that Purnell and Kennan had left and then Adolph spent the whole next day in camp placed the disappearance on or after June 15. It wouldn’t make much sense for them to return 2 days later?
There are a lot of other things in the note that give me pause.
Still in work,
Garry
QUESTION: Why did Adolph Ruth need 50 pounds of flour at his camp at Willow Springs?
ANSWER: He didn’t.
QUESTION: Given his documented meticulousness, why did he write as much in his diary?
ANSWER: He didn’t.
QUESTION: If Adolph didn’t make the diary entry, who did?
ANSWER: His son, Erwin Ruth.
QUESTION: Why would Erwin have created the entry?
ANSWER: The search for his father had lost steam and he needed to infuse fresh life into the search. He conveniently found the diary in his father’s camp under the pillow on his camp cot. For almost three weeks the other searchers had missed this piece of evidence. Erwin was a showman and one thing he understood was the value of publicity.
QUESTION: Did Erwin have the facts to forge such a note?
ANSWER: Yes, Erwin had been in Arizona for over a week and been in contact with all of the major players, including Keenan and Purnell. Much of the story could have come from them.
QUESTION: Did Erwin’s ploy have any unforeseen results?
ANSWER: He may have unwittingly aided in providing a portion of the alibi for Keenan and Purnell. The note indicates that they arrived at the camp on June 13, left Adolph and returned to the “U” ranch. The Ruth family certainly wasn’t satisfied with their alibi (Erwin still suspected they were somehow involved when he met with the DONS in 1946) but given the fact that Adolph had written the note stating that Purnell and Kennan had left and then Adolph spent the whole next day in camp placed the disappearance on or after June 15. It wouldn’t make much sense for them to return 2 days later?
There are a lot of other things in the note that give me pause.
Still in work,
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Seem's Right To Me.....
Garry,
Can't find much wrong with you scenario. Hard to find out the truth after this many years. Have to admit......it's fun trying.
I have it on good authority, that there were questions about how Ruth was taken into the mountains.....early on. Tex was asked and swore it was out of First Water.
Take care,
Joe
Can't find much wrong with you scenario. Hard to find out the truth after this many years. Have to admit......it's fun trying.
I have it on good authority, that there were questions about how Ruth was taken into the mountains.....early on. Tex was asked and swore it was out of First Water.
Take care,
Joe
"Good Authority" and "Early On"
Joe,
I don’t think there’s much left, for me, to add to the Adolph Ruth entry into the mountains story unless you are prepared to go into much greater detail on your “good authority” and the meaning of “early on”.
I mentioned earlier that I have no desire to change anyone else’s mind and that I am perfectly satisfied with my version. I have collected nine references that suggest Adolph used the Southern Route. I have collected zero references suggesting the First Water Route.
The reference to Tex telling someone “early on” is an interesting consideration. Exactly who can we identify that Tex would have been telling that particular piece of information? Certainly no one associated with the search because they would have already been aware of the route. Three, possible, names come to mind that arrived on the scene later.
Erwin Ruth: He certainly was talking to Tex along with several other people after his arrival. It’s obvious to me that he was told his father came in from the “U” ranch. Perhaps not by Tex directly but that was certainly the accepted version when he arrived.
Jim Bark: He arrived in Arizona in 1932 and he talked to Tex extensively. Apparently that’s where the story of the college student driver came from, along with the gunny sack story. Bark does not address the route specifically but it seems to me he indicates that the southern route was used. Ely, later on, repeats the implication. They certainly don’t leave any indication, in my mind at least, that they were told that Ruth came in from First Water.
Barry Storm: Barry is very clear in his story in 1939 that Ruth came in from First Water. Since Barry knew Tex, we might suspect he got his information from Barkley. This is far from a certainly as he could have gotten it from other sources or since it might have seemed to be the logical route to Barry, he simply made up the story? Whatever the case we are getting away from the reference “early on.”
It makes no sense to me, why people would be reluctant share the details, they perceive as absolute proof that Ruth entered the Superstitions from First Water. Now if it is something that is fourth or fifth hand information, I can understand why they would not offer it up for scrutiny.
Garry
I don’t think there’s much left, for me, to add to the Adolph Ruth entry into the mountains story unless you are prepared to go into much greater detail on your “good authority” and the meaning of “early on”.
I mentioned earlier that I have no desire to change anyone else’s mind and that I am perfectly satisfied with my version. I have collected nine references that suggest Adolph used the Southern Route. I have collected zero references suggesting the First Water Route.
The reference to Tex telling someone “early on” is an interesting consideration. Exactly who can we identify that Tex would have been telling that particular piece of information? Certainly no one associated with the search because they would have already been aware of the route. Three, possible, names come to mind that arrived on the scene later.
Erwin Ruth: He certainly was talking to Tex along with several other people after his arrival. It’s obvious to me that he was told his father came in from the “U” ranch. Perhaps not by Tex directly but that was certainly the accepted version when he arrived.
Jim Bark: He arrived in Arizona in 1932 and he talked to Tex extensively. Apparently that’s where the story of the college student driver came from, along with the gunny sack story. Bark does not address the route specifically but it seems to me he indicates that the southern route was used. Ely, later on, repeats the implication. They certainly don’t leave any indication, in my mind at least, that they were told that Ruth came in from First Water.
Barry Storm: Barry is very clear in his story in 1939 that Ruth came in from First Water. Since Barry knew Tex, we might suspect he got his information from Barkley. This is far from a certainly as he could have gotten it from other sources or since it might have seemed to be the logical route to Barry, he simply made up the story? Whatever the case we are getting away from the reference “early on.”
It makes no sense to me, why people would be reluctant share the details, they perceive as absolute proof that Ruth entered the Superstitions from First Water. Now if it is something that is fourth or fifth hand information, I can understand why they would not offer it up for scrutiny.
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sources.....
Garry,
Originally I heard this story from someone who has no problem sharing whatever he learns (in confidence) from others, if he feels it will further his own agenda. That does not mean he is not an excellent source.
I went directly to the person who asked Tex the question, and he confirmed it. His reason for asking was because there were some doubts being voiced about which way Ruth entered the mountains.
My direct source is no longer available to question. I am as sure as I can be, under the circumstances, that the two sources backing up this story indicate it is truthful.
I am able to tell you more, and I will do so in a private email. You may decide if it is something worth knowing, but will not be able to pass that information along. If I did not trust you, this is as much as you would get.
Wishing you and Carol a Very Merry Christmas,
Joe
Originally I heard this story from someone who has no problem sharing whatever he learns (in confidence) from others, if he feels it will further his own agenda. That does not mean he is not an excellent source.
I went directly to the person who asked Tex the question, and he confirmed it. His reason for asking was because there were some doubts being voiced about which way Ruth entered the mountains.
My direct source is no longer available to question. I am as sure as I can be, under the circumstances, that the two sources backing up this story indicate it is truthful.
I am able to tell you more, and I will do so in a private email. You may decide if it is something worth knowing, but will not be able to pass that information along. If I did not trust you, this is as much as you would get.
Wishing you and Carol a Very Merry Christmas,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Authenticity......
Don,
Nice to see you are still lurking around out there.
It would be interesting to see the original letter, or even a picture of it. There are other letters out there to, at least, try and make a comparison of the handwriting and signature.
Wishing you and yours a Very Merry Christmas,
Joe
Nice to see you are still lurking around out there.
It would be interesting to see the original letter, or even a picture of it. There are other letters out there to, at least, try and make a comparison of the handwriting and signature.
Wishing you and yours a Very Merry Christmas,
Joe
hi joe,
tks for the xmas wishes(or should it be "winter celebration" wishes in the present day? } I hope you and your family also enjoy xmas,and indeed the rest of the forum members.
It seems to me ,and i may be wrong here, that the authenticity of ruths letter was attested to by the same people who felt ruths death was attributable to natural causes. funny how people can be very selective in what they believe,or rather who they believe,in particular circumstances.
it seems to me that there always has been,and still is a measure of disinformation in evidence. recently its been posted here that holmes was barry storms mr x. that is not how i heard it,its not how my parents heard it,or indeed how countless others heard it either. whenever certain issues are brought up,there is either a barrier of silence or someone gets a snit on. .........ill say no more,but nobody will get to the heart of the ruth issue without exploring ALL the issues,rather than just a few of them. honesty ,gentleman....please.
merry xmas all
tks for the xmas wishes(or should it be "winter celebration" wishes in the present day?
} I hope you and your family also enjoy xmas,and indeed the rest of the forum members.It seems to me ,and i may be wrong here, that the authenticity of ruths letter was attested to by the same people who felt ruths death was attributable to natural causes. funny how people can be very selective in what they believe,or rather who they believe,in particular circumstances.
it seems to me that there always has been,and still is a measure of disinformation in evidence. recently its been posted here that holmes was barry storms mr x. that is not how i heard it,its not how my parents heard it,or indeed how countless others heard it either. whenever certain issues are brought up,there is either a barrier of silence or someone gets a snit on. .........ill say no more,but nobody will get to the heart of the ruth issue without exploring ALL the issues,rather than just a few of them. honesty ,gentleman....please.
merry xmas all
Don update your email address
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Mr. X........
Don,
I believe the reasoning behind the "guarded" discussions, is that the families of Holmes and Barkley are still around and, I have been told, do look in on the LDM sites.
That does tend to make any public research into Ruth's death rather focused.......on old ground and conclusions. Since the rumors have been around for many years, you would think by now that the families would want the "facts" to be examined and let the chips fall where they may.
I doubt very much that a "smoking gun" would turn up, but the circumstantial evidence should, at least, be discussed. I am positive that Adolph Ruth knew exactly where he wanted to go, and it was Bark's intention to put the old man at Willow Spring......long before he arrived in 1931.
If that's true, the final location of Ruth's remains fades farther into the realm of cover-up and nearer to death at the hand's of "others". It also brings the focus of Ruth's maps (2), back to where they belong. That would be West Boulder and the Willow Spring area, to the exclusion of any other place.
If Ruth had wanted to be anywhere near Black Top Mesa, he would not have camped at Willow Spring. Those who believe he did not know what he was doing, and was just a foolish old man, don't know the entire story.
I believe a book will soon be brought to publication, that will open the Ruth case to some new areas of research. The information that will be revealed will explode the known/accepted story into a thousand pieces.
Just remember that you heard it first, here on the LDM Forum.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
I believe the reasoning behind the "guarded" discussions, is that the families of Holmes and Barkley are still around and, I have been told, do look in on the LDM sites.
That does tend to make any public research into Ruth's death rather focused.......on old ground and conclusions. Since the rumors have been around for many years, you would think by now that the families would want the "facts" to be examined and let the chips fall where they may.
I doubt very much that a "smoking gun" would turn up, but the circumstantial evidence should, at least, be discussed. I am positive that Adolph Ruth knew exactly where he wanted to go, and it was Bark's intention to put the old man at Willow Spring......long before he arrived in 1931.
If that's true, the final location of Ruth's remains fades farther into the realm of cover-up and nearer to death at the hand's of "others". It also brings the focus of Ruth's maps (2), back to where they belong. That would be West Boulder and the Willow Spring area, to the exclusion of any other place.
If Ruth had wanted to be anywhere near Black Top Mesa, he would not have camped at Willow Spring. Those who believe he did not know what he was doing, and was just a foolish old man, don't know the entire story.
I believe a book will soon be brought to publication, that will open the Ruth case to some new areas of research. The information that will be revealed will explode the known/accepted story into a thousand pieces.
Just remember that you heard it first, here on the LDM Forum.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo