Maybe not an important subject, but does anyone know what is at the place where the J. Waltz cabin/homestead used to be (just west of the airport)?
I was curious with all the development in Phoenix if its just been paved over. Anyone ever drive by there?
Waltz Homestead Today
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RU Kidding
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Joe Ribaudo
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Arizona History
Aurum,
That's a great piece of Arizona history. For anyone interested in some fascinating reading, outside the LDM, you should try to find "A Little War of Our Own" by, Don Dedera. The Tewksbury-Graham Feud, or Pleasant Valley War reads like a Dime-Store novel. Zane Grey wrote about it in "To the Last Man". The book "Zane Grey: Romancing the West" by Stephen J. May gives a good account of how Grey researched the information for his book. Two other books which give good accounts are "Desert Lawmen" by, Larry Ball and "Tom Horn: Last of the Bad Men". Tom Horn was right in the middle of the action here.
Both families lost many family members in this feud. Only one of the seven brothers from both families survived this war. Two men named Roberts had parts in this war, they were not related, but one has to wonder if either belonged to the Roberts family with ties to the LDM.
Jim Roberts (who was from Missouri) was known as the "Top Gun" in the war and always carried his pistol in his hip pocket. He came down on the side of the Tewksburys. Mose Roberts was a participant in one of the most famous gunfights in western history where one man, Commodore Perry Owens, shot it out with Andy Blevins (Cooper) and several others who were in his house. Owens killed three men in the fight,
one of them being Roberts. Andy Blevins was a Graham man.
Jim Roberts along with Jim and Ed Tewksbury were involved in a shootout at rock Springs. One Graham man was killed and several others were wounded.
The first blood to be shed in this fued, was in February of 1887, when a Navajo sheepherder was murdered on the northern edge of Pleasant Valley. The last man killed was Tom Graham in August of 1892. Graham was unarmed, which had become his habit after moving to Tempe. He was killed from ambush by John Rhodes who was in the company of Ed Tewksbury. John Rhodes who was said to be the triggerman, was never held for trial. Ed Tewksbury was tried twice and then released.
Sorry to carry on so long about this great piece of Arizona history, but you all know I just can't help myself. My apologies to Wiz. This story will keep you awake nights reading about it. Marshall Trimble gives a few pages to the story in "Arizona: A Cavalcade of History".
Aurum, thanks for a little known piece of this history. If you have a class teaching history, I want to sign up for it. If you write a book, I want to be the first in line to buy it. If you speak anywhere, I want to know and I will be there, listening.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
That's a great piece of Arizona history. For anyone interested in some fascinating reading, outside the LDM, you should try to find "A Little War of Our Own" by, Don Dedera. The Tewksbury-Graham Feud, or Pleasant Valley War reads like a Dime-Store novel. Zane Grey wrote about it in "To the Last Man". The book "Zane Grey: Romancing the West" by Stephen J. May gives a good account of how Grey researched the information for his book. Two other books which give good accounts are "Desert Lawmen" by, Larry Ball and "Tom Horn: Last of the Bad Men". Tom Horn was right in the middle of the action here.
Both families lost many family members in this feud. Only one of the seven brothers from both families survived this war. Two men named Roberts had parts in this war, they were not related, but one has to wonder if either belonged to the Roberts family with ties to the LDM.
Jim Roberts (who was from Missouri) was known as the "Top Gun" in the war and always carried his pistol in his hip pocket. He came down on the side of the Tewksburys. Mose Roberts was a participant in one of the most famous gunfights in western history where one man, Commodore Perry Owens, shot it out with Andy Blevins (Cooper) and several others who were in his house. Owens killed three men in the fight,
one of them being Roberts. Andy Blevins was a Graham man.
Jim Roberts along with Jim and Ed Tewksbury were involved in a shootout at rock Springs. One Graham man was killed and several others were wounded.
The first blood to be shed in this fued, was in February of 1887, when a Navajo sheepherder was murdered on the northern edge of Pleasant Valley. The last man killed was Tom Graham in August of 1892. Graham was unarmed, which had become his habit after moving to Tempe. He was killed from ambush by John Rhodes who was in the company of Ed Tewksbury. John Rhodes who was said to be the triggerman, was never held for trial. Ed Tewksbury was tried twice and then released.
Sorry to carry on so long about this great piece of Arizona history, but you all know I just can't help myself. My apologies to Wiz. This story will keep you awake nights reading about it. Marshall Trimble gives a few pages to the story in "Arizona: A Cavalcade of History".
Aurum, thanks for a little known piece of this history. If you have a class teaching history, I want to sign up for it. If you write a book, I want to be the first in line to buy it. If you speak anywhere, I want to know and I will be there, listening.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Waltz home, ... Pleasant Valley War
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Last edited by Aurum on Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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History
Aurum,
For some of our members who might be wondering what Arizona history has to do (specifically) with the LDM or even Jesuit Treasure, you might want to consider a few points.
Aurum has brought up the possibility that there may be gold buried, instead of bodies, in some of the burial sites in the Waltz graveyard. Someone knowing the exact location of that graveyard might be able, with some of the better detectors manufactured today, to find some evidence that it is there. Getting it out is another matter, but not impossible. That ore would be another confirmation that Waltz had gold, perhaps a great deal of gold.
My own team has a detector that would probably work for such a search.
Point here, is that without Aurum's knowledge of a history that seems to have no bearing on the LDM, we might never consider this clue to authenticating the LDM.
Had I not read Martha Summerhays, the possibility that the two soldiers could have used another crossing would never be considered. While that is only likely, it does give us another angle to work on.
The list of players who moved through the legends surrounding the LDM and the Superstition Mountains is rich and far ranging. I believe that Martha's book has a clue which may have a direct bearing on the story of the two soldiers, but that is another story waiting for another historian.
Dr. Glover is someone else who has uncovered many pieces of history (previously untold) that could also lead to the LDM. You do not find that history by reading Dutch Hunter books, unless you read his.
Is "the" clue waiting in some obscure historical book or pioneer manuscript?
Azmula is delving into the mysteries of the Stone Maps and the Jesuit Treasure by looking into archives far removed from the Superstitions. Does anyone doubt that his chances are better than those who have not sought out that history?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
For some of our members who might be wondering what Arizona history has to do (specifically) with the LDM or even Jesuit Treasure, you might want to consider a few points.
Aurum has brought up the possibility that there may be gold buried, instead of bodies, in some of the burial sites in the Waltz graveyard. Someone knowing the exact location of that graveyard might be able, with some of the better detectors manufactured today, to find some evidence that it is there. Getting it out is another matter, but not impossible. That ore would be another confirmation that Waltz had gold, perhaps a great deal of gold.
My own team has a detector that would probably work for such a search.
Point here, is that without Aurum's knowledge of a history that seems to have no bearing on the LDM, we might never consider this clue to authenticating the LDM.
Had I not read Martha Summerhays, the possibility that the two soldiers could have used another crossing would never be considered. While that is only likely, it does give us another angle to work on.
The list of players who moved through the legends surrounding the LDM and the Superstition Mountains is rich and far ranging. I believe that Martha's book has a clue which may have a direct bearing on the story of the two soldiers, but that is another story waiting for another historian.
Dr. Glover is someone else who has uncovered many pieces of history (previously untold) that could also lead to the LDM. You do not find that history by reading Dutch Hunter books, unless you read his.
Is "the" clue waiting in some obscure historical book or pioneer manuscript?Azmula is delving into the mysteries of the Stone Maps and the Jesuit Treasure by looking into archives far removed from the Superstitions. Does anyone doubt that his chances are better than those who have not sought out that history?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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South of Tempe?
Aurum,
Jacob Starrar lived about a mile south of Tempe and I find no evidence in any of the books I have read (no big surprise), that Tewksbury was taken to Jake's for a final resting place. I know they traveled westward from the Starrar home for the burial, so I have no doubt you are correct. It would really be interesting to see the Slosser's letters. While this has nothing to do with the LDM, the history bug has made it's presence known to me again.
Your large collection of historical documents has turned me into "one who chews rocks". Just threw that in for Peter and he may be the only one who understands what it means. Not counting the "Peter's Papago" who watch the forum.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Jacob Starrar lived about a mile south of Tempe and I find no evidence in any of the books I have read (no big surprise), that Tewksbury was taken to Jake's for a final resting place. I know they traveled westward from the Starrar home for the burial, so I have no doubt you are correct. It would really be interesting to see the Slosser's letters. While this has nothing to do with the LDM, the history bug has made it's presence known to me again.
Your large collection of historical documents has turned me into "one who chews rocks". Just threw that in for Peter and he may be the only one who understands what it means. Not counting the "Peter's Papago" who watch the forum.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Clueless?
Peter,
Perhaps I have given you too much (Arizona/Apache knowledge) credit.
Makes me wonder if you understood the rock chewing comment at all.
You recomended to Azmula that he just hit the ignore button on my posts to him. Maybe you should try the same thing. Your childish remarks are good for an occasional chuckle but they remain without thought. I have tried to smooth things over by staying above your petulant behaviour and trying to keep things light but it has become obvious that you can't stand to be corrected on anything and will never get over it. If you knew as much as you think you know, a dumb bunny like me would not need to provide the sources to prove you wrong so often. When you disagree with me, you never back up your arguments with facts or sources. When I say you are flat wrong, I provide a source or sources for my conclusions. You should try that some time, it creates the same type of response that it has in you with many other smart asses who are never wrong.
Life's to short for this. Get over it.
Joe Ribaudo
Perhaps I have given you too much (Arizona/Apache knowledge) credit.
Makes me wonder if you understood the rock chewing comment at all.
You recomended to Azmula that he just hit the ignore button on my posts to him. Maybe you should try the same thing. Your childish remarks are good for an occasional chuckle but they remain without thought. I have tried to smooth things over by staying above your petulant behaviour and trying to keep things light but it has become obvious that you can't stand to be corrected on anything and will never get over it. If you knew as much as you think you know, a dumb bunny like me would not need to provide the sources to prove you wrong so often. When you disagree with me, you never back up your arguments with facts or sources. When I say you are flat wrong, I provide a source or sources for my conclusions. You should try that some time, it creates the same type of response that it has in you with many other smart asses who are never wrong.
Life's to short for this. Get over it.
Joe Ribaudo
Let's be fair, Joe. You were the one who baited Peter with the "Peter's Papago" remark. I think that's what he was referring to when he said you couldn't help yourself.
Maybe both of you could utilize the ignore button, or else start up a separate "Peter and Joe's Bickering" thread that the rest of us could read or not, according to preference.
Maybe both of you could utilize the ignore button, or else start up a separate "Peter and Joe's Bickering" thread that the rest of us could read or not, according to preference.
Wiz
You are, of course, correct in your assumption. As some other folks on the forum have mentioned, Joes modus operandi seems to be to bait people and see what he can come up with. Some think he's after LDM info.... me, I just think he has alot of time on his hands, gets bored and tries to stir up "discussions". Oh well.
The ignore button is the way go.
P
You are, of course, correct in your assumption. As some other folks on the forum have mentioned, Joes modus operandi seems to be to bait people and see what he can come up with. Some think he's after LDM info.... me, I just think he has alot of time on his hands, gets bored and tries to stir up "discussions". Oh well.
The ignore button is the way go.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Peter's Papago
Wiz,
Peter's Papago were not named for our Peter. I coined the name for the two gentlemen who had climbed up the old trail on the east side of Peter's Mesa in a previous topic. We were discussing the Black Legion and it was made obvious that the name was not in favor for some. I can see where Peter would now take offense to my using it in such a light hearted manner, just as he takes offense to hello Peter.
Peter is the one who mentioned that the forum was watched by "others", leaving it up to everyone else to guess who he meant while trying not to mention them by name. It is appropriate that Peter's Papago was applied to these mystery "watchers".
I am glad you have come forward to speak for Peter and his motivations.
I expect you will do a better job of bringing me out of my "clueless" state than Peter is capable of doing.
It is interesting that you defend Peter's childishness by accusing me of baiting him. If you read back through these posts and others, you may find someone else casting some bait here.
If you will post a list of names, words and phrases which I should not use, I promise to be carefull and try not to offend Peter with there use in the future. I understand that "Peter's Papago" is one of the names that Peter should not see here and I promise not to use "Peter's Papago" where another name can be substituted for "Peter's Papago" so as to not get Peter excited in the future with the random "Peter's Papago" references.
Thanks for clueing me in on this "Peter's Papago" thing. I will add "Peter's
Papago" to the (Offending Peter) list alongside "The Black Legion".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Peter's Papago were not named for our Peter. I coined the name for the two gentlemen who had climbed up the old trail on the east side of Peter's Mesa in a previous topic. We were discussing the Black Legion and it was made obvious that the name was not in favor for some. I can see where Peter would now take offense to my using it in such a light hearted manner, just as he takes offense to hello Peter.
Peter is the one who mentioned that the forum was watched by "others", leaving it up to everyone else to guess who he meant while trying not to mention them by name. It is appropriate that Peter's Papago was applied to these mystery "watchers".
I am glad you have come forward to speak for Peter and his motivations.
I expect you will do a better job of bringing me out of my "clueless" state than Peter is capable of doing.
It is interesting that you defend Peter's childishness by accusing me of baiting him. If you read back through these posts and others, you may find someone else casting some bait here.
If you will post a list of names, words and phrases which I should not use, I promise to be carefull and try not to offend Peter with there use in the future. I understand that "Peter's Papago" is one of the names that Peter should not see here and I promise not to use "Peter's Papago" where another name can be substituted for "Peter's Papago" so as to not get Peter excited in the future with the random "Peter's Papago" references.
Thanks for clueing me in on this "Peter's Papago" thing. I will add "Peter's
Papago" to the (Offending Peter) list alongside "The Black Legion".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wiz and Peter,
[Peter]
"Wiz
You are, of course, correct in your assumption. As some other folks on the forum have mentioned, Joes modus operandi seems to be to bait people and see what he can come up with. Some think he's after LDM info.... me, I just think he has alot of time on his hands, gets bored and tries to stir up "discussions". Oh well. (emphasis in bold by Joe)
The ignore button is the way go."
Joe:
I see I was wrong in my attempts to "stir up 'discussions'". What was I thinking?
It is obvious that I have "alot (sic) of time" on my hands. I think I may have said that a few times before.
As for baiting people, Peter is such a "target rich environment" he is hard to resist. I have offered to not make any comments that infringe on Peter's expertise but I am having a hard time narrowing that field down to anything in particular. That's why I have requested a list of verboten names, words and phrases. Perhaps I should add subjects to that list.
Let's just try to return to a topic other than Peter and I. Neither of you seem to be able to take Peter's suggestion and just "ignore" me, so I will take that sage advise and "ignore" the barbs. Since there are two or three of you voicing this opinion, I must assume I am the problem. I can accept that and will change my spots.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[Peter]
"Wiz
You are, of course, correct in your assumption. As some other folks on the forum have mentioned, Joes modus operandi seems to be to bait people and see what he can come up with. Some think he's after LDM info.... me, I just think he has alot of time on his hands, gets bored and tries to stir up "discussions". Oh well. (emphasis in bold by Joe)
The ignore button is the way go."
Joe:
I see I was wrong in my attempts to "stir up 'discussions'". What was I thinking?
It is obvious that I have "alot (sic) of time" on my hands. I think I may have said that a few times before.
As for baiting people, Peter is such a "target rich environment" he is hard to resist. I have offered to not make any comments that infringe on Peter's expertise but I am having a hard time narrowing that field down to anything in particular. That's why I have requested a list of verboten names, words and phrases. Perhaps I should add subjects to that list.
Let's just try to return to a topic other than Peter and I. Neither of you seem to be able to take Peter's suggestion and just "ignore" me, so I will take that sage advise and "ignore" the barbs. Since there are two or three of you voicing this opinion, I must assume I am the problem. I can accept that and will change my spots.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Waltz's homestead - Jacob Starrar
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Last edited by Aurum on Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Still "No Doubt"
Aurum,
Thank you for your reply.
As I said before, "I have no doubt you are correct". I probably should have worded my comment on the location of the Starrer residence a little differently.
I was using "A Little War of Our Own" as a source. The passage is on page 210. "Starrar's house was a mile south of Tempe. The most likely route of the funeral procession to the cemetery would wend westward, passing in front of the Double Butte school. Members of the Tewksbury clan unswervingly counted Jim a war casualty, and as the cortege crossed Priest Road, mourners could glance southward to the columns of smoke raising from brush fires signaling the beginning of a new Tom Graham agricultural empire." The author, who lived in Phoenix, seems to have a fair source for his detailed information. Where Starrar's house was is less than important, except to a few old history buffs.
Don Dedera has been an honorary member of the Don's Club since 1986. As an acknowledged authority on Arizona history, I can't help but wonder if he might have some knowledge concerning the history of the Superstitions that might help some of our Dutch Hunters. That assumes that he is still alive now.
Thanks again for enriching us with your knowledge of Arizona history and the specific history that swirls around Jacob Waltz.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thank you for your reply.
As I said before, "I have no doubt you are correct". I probably should have worded my comment on the location of the Starrer residence a little differently.
I was using "A Little War of Our Own" as a source. The passage is on page 210. "Starrar's house was a mile south of Tempe. The most likely route of the funeral procession to the cemetery would wend westward, passing in front of the Double Butte school. Members of the Tewksbury clan unswervingly counted Jim a war casualty, and as the cortege crossed Priest Road, mourners could glance southward to the columns of smoke raising from brush fires signaling the beginning of a new Tom Graham agricultural empire." The author, who lived in Phoenix, seems to have a fair source for his detailed information. Where Starrar's house was is less than important, except to a few old history buffs.
Don Dedera has been an honorary member of the Don's Club since 1986. As an acknowledged authority on Arizona history, I can't help but wonder if he might have some knowledge concerning the history of the Superstitions that might help some of our Dutch Hunters. That assumes that he is still alive now.
Thanks again for enriching us with your knowledge of Arizona history and the specific history that swirls around Jacob Waltz.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Reading Material
Aurum,
Copies of Dedera's book are fairly easy to find. Signed first editions are somewhat rare and pretty pricey for a book published in 1988.
I thought the same thing about the 1 mile south, but considering the detail
in the passage thought it unlikely. It does present an interesting side bar to known history. I am sure you will find the truth quickly. The Arizona Historical Society would surely have the answer on hand.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Copies of Dedera's book are fairly easy to find. Signed first editions are somewhat rare and pretty pricey for a book published in 1988.
I thought the same thing about the 1 mile south, but considering the detail
in the passage thought it unlikely. It does present an interesting side bar to known history. I am sure you will find the truth quickly. The Arizona Historical Society would surely have the answer on hand.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Web Site for Out of Print Books
One of the best Web sites to search for rare and out of print books is AddAll. They have two copies of "A Little War of Our Own" by Dedera. One is signed for $100 and the other unsigned for $47. Here is the link if you are interested:
Roger
http://www.addall.com/Used/
Roger
http://www.addall.com/Used/