The Stone Maps

[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

You are correct about "several sweeping statements". Just trying to find out who's who in the zoo here. I believe I can remain focused now.

If I had said "if you think the markings at Twin Buttes..." instead of, "if the markings at Twin Buttes....", your point would be well taken. I did not make an assertion that you had mentioned the Buttes.
If the Stone Maps are legitimate, it is likely that the markings at Twin Buttes are also legitimate. If Father Rojas made and hid the Stone Maps in his mission, I think we could safely assume he had something to do with the markings at Twin Buttes as well. A foundation of common sense may not have as much stability as a trip to the Jesuit Archives, but it will have to do for most of us. All of the above has absolutely nothing to do with finding the treasure. The entire discussion of Father Rojas has nothing to do with using the Stone Maps to find the Jesuit Treasure. It has, however, been an interesting trip into Jesuit history.

I like all of your assumptions. I may not agree with them all, but I like 'em. You are also very observant. I don't spend any time studying the Stone Maps. Glad you are still working on them.

Joe

[charlie]

Azmula,

I need to clarify somethting. Which Twin Buttes? I noted in some readings about the Peralta mines the North Butte and South Butte were referenced as twin buttes. I also found a Twin Buttes so named east and south of the Santan Mountains.

When looking at the Twin Buttes, having an east and west pair of buttes, I noted some directional "f"'s along the creek to the north of the buttes pointing to go north-east. I also noted a few arrows and other markers pointing to curious marks on the inside of the westerly butte about the bend from north to north-east.

I will try to get a GPS on the location later.

Got to go to make "Tofu and string bean coconut soup". An old Thai favorite of mine.

[Joe Ribaudo]

This year's trip on the Stone Map trail brought more proof we are near the final location. No treasure, but a positive indication it is near.

Our camp was nowhere near any maintained trail, and we had a small stream of water at the edge of the camp. The water was murkey, but we had as much as was needed. You would not believe the menu, so I will not test your credulity. Four days of searching the highs and the lows of my area of interest was more than enough for this old man. Cousin Sam does not like horses and chose to walk out. I don't like to see him do that alone, so I walked out with him. We spent a total of six days in the mountains, one day in, one out and four in camp. Sam and I were going to go in two days early but wimped out because of the storm. All four of us rode in. We had two wranglers (Ron's sons, Jessie and Josh), and they are both hands that would be welcome at any man's campfire. The Feldmans can be proud to have raised such fine sons.

I will tell you this much about the Stone Maps: Like Waltz said, "No cowboy will ever find my mine", I can assure you (despite Father Polzer and any rumors), no cowboy ever made the Stone Maps.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Did Father Rojas author the Stone Maps, as Azmula has hinted? Whoever made the Stone Maps had spent years in the mountains. No one sat down and cobbled them out as a lark. Rojas did not have the time to spend in the Superstitions for such a task. If anyone thinks the Jesuits brought their treasure into the mountains and then made the maps, they have no clue as to the truth of the matter. There are people who did spend enough years in the Superstitions to have the knowledge to put these maps together, but it is unlikely that they (other than the Peraltas) created them. The evidence that Dutch Hunters from the past had nothing to do with creating the maps, has no relation to the Stone Maps themselves. The maps have had things added, but they do not affect the overall picture or where the maps will take us. Those items have been added to confuse the searchers. A new member to our team (this year) has opened my eyes to the value of the Chuck Kenworthy work on the maps and I hope he can narrow our search down to steps rather than area. Working on an old problem with a fresh mind, is seldom a bad thing. If the maps are a hoax, they have more legs than the proverbial centipede.

Bobbie's horse is still waiting for S.C. to arrive with his carrot, but he is nowhere in sight, yet.

Joe

[azmula]

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[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

No Modern-day Jesuit will divulge (even if they have) the information you are seeking. You will have an easier time with the library in Phoenix than any other possible source for this information. Tracy has confirmed that the book does exist, and is in the library. Jesuit studies include the history of the order, so it is likely notes, letters and memorias are part of that curriculum.
Since you have studied "the Mexican Jesuit Archives in Mexico", I believe you have all the information you can reasonably expect to find on Father Rojas. In that endeavor you have a jump on most, if not all, Jesuit Treasure Hunters. I understand why you would be seeking validation of the history of Rojas, but nothing that is available to the general public will take you to the Jesuit Treasure. No one has more evidence that such a treasure exists, or a better idea of where it might be found than the Jesuit Order itself. If historical records could find these treasure locations, the Church would have found and removed them years ago. You are giving yourself a great historical education, but Jesuit records are a dry hole for locating any treasure associated with their tenure in the Southwest. That is, of course, personal opinion and perhaps includes "several sweeping statements", but that is the best I can provide with my limited exposure to the subject.

Nice talking to you again,

Joe Ribaudo

[azmula]

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[Aurum]

xx

[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula and Aurum,

Did the information for finding the Sacambaya River Treasure come from Jesuit archives? It is an interesting story and relates to what we are discussing here; Finding a Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions. Anyone remember what started the Sacambaya search?

Peter,

Did you mean to spell snake thl'iish? I don't recall a "T" being followed by an "H" in any Apache word that I have ever seen. That does not mean much, as I have not seen that many. What dialect did you study?

Azmula,

Good Idea.

Joe

[Peter]

Joe

Western Apache.

The "Thl" is the pronunciation (more or less) of the voiced bilateral aspiration that is common in Western Apache. Apache dictionaries and grammatical texts do NOT use "thl" but rather use an "l" with a slash through the middle of it. Many Anglo authors simply write this as "L"
when writing a word in Apache.

Thus the word for "white" is written as "likoye" or "likai" but an Apache dictionary will write it as " (l -with-the-slash)- ikai. In reality it sounds like
thl or kl depending on the word/speaker.

Thus "horse" (thlii) sounds like "thlee" or "klee" depending on the speaker.

When the voiced bilateral aspiration appears at the END of a word, it almost sounds like the "ch" in a word like "ache".

Thus the Apache word for mountain (written by Anglos as "DZIL"), in reality sounds very much like "deeshk".

I'd chat more, but the dam raven is back and I cant get him to leave.
Cause of last night, I suspect.....lol (one of you knows EXACTLY what I am talking about...help !!!)

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

I had no doubt you knew what you were talking about, despite spelling damn that way, but just wanted to make sure you were still there.
That was some answer, I had a hard time following it in English let alone Apache. Not many white men have taken the time to learn the Apache
language. Most who have done so end up writing a book. I will be the first in line to buy it.

Aurum,

I don't recall hearing that the Plazuela treasure had actually been found. I had read something about a search, but missed the ending it would seem. I am not sure that the book Azmula mentioned exists but it does sound like a heading in a magazine article. Your knowledge has no end.

Joe

[Peter]

Joe

No books from me. Just a small price I am willing to pay for the greater good.

I only know a few words and phrases...just enough to keep me out of (or get me into) trouble, I reckon..lol. Seriously, I have no illusions about learning the language (I have a better chance of finding the mine I think),
but it is an interesting study.

P

[Aurum]

xx

[azmula]

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[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

It would appear that you have a very rare book, which is always rewarding. There are a few books that have told this story that are available to the general public. One, Steps to a Fortune by Mark Howell and Tony Morrison (printed in 1967) is in good supply. Aurum's synopsis of the story, however, did not come from your book. It would be interesting to know his source. There is another written by a lady, but I would have to do more research than is warranted to come up with her name. Who published the Dr. Sanders book?

Aurum,

Other than where the rest of the treasure is buried, I think you have told us everything that is available on this very interesting story. We have come to expect no less.

Joe Ribaudo

[azmula]

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[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

I assumed it was a private publication, but was guessing Germany for some strange reason. All the more reason to treasure your find. I would guess there are not that many copies floating around. I spend a lot of time in old book stores and have never seen it. "Jesuit Treasure' in a title would jump out at me in a heartbeat. how did you find it?

Joe

[azmula]

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[Joe Ribaudo]

Ron,

When you were led north of the Salt River by the Stone Maps, where did you find the matching trail? Since you believe they are a hoax, I assume you would not have a problem letting Azmulla know where he should be looking.
How goes your war with the powers that be? If the OK comes down, will you try to work through this summer? Good luck and good hunting.

Azmulla,

You are so right about "a hundred locations" for each of the clues that have come down through the years. That would be just in the Superstitions. What clue from the Stone Maps really surprised you when you finally figured it out or found it? There were so many for me, but I would probably say the triangle slash, although our find this year was a real shocker. That find makes some of the words stand above the rest, at least for me.
I won't say where the maps are leading us (big surprise), but I have no problem saying what they are leading to: Peralta mines and Jesuit treasure. The newest member of our team is working on the numbers from the maps and I have no doubt he will have it worked out before our next trip.
All of the above assumes the maps are not a hoax, and, of course, there is always that possibility.

S.C.,

Do you think Chuning's Cave, which you mentioned in a previous post, could be the triangle-slash of the Stone Maps? You mentioned that it was sometimes called Triangle Cave. Any similarity in the appearance of the
cave and the symbol on the maps?

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ron, Azmula and S.C.,

I thought my questions in the previous post were fairly innocuous. Why no response? I would think most of the members would be (at the least)
slightly interested in your answers. Since Ron and S.C. do not believe in the authenticity of the Stone Maps, they would be giving away no valuable personal secrets. The three of you brought up these topics and it would be nice to have you elaborate on them.

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Very astute, Rosebud.

I have said over and over again - the stone maps are fakes. But that is only MY opinion. To each, his own. However, even if the maps were real, there is no one map or map of any kind that is going to lead anyone to anywhere.

S.C.,

Do you still believe the Stone Maps do not 'lead anyone to anywhere"? Just curious.

Joe

[azmula]

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[Joe Ribaudo]

Hi Azmula,

I don't remember the discussion that covered your last comments on the "triangle with a slash". How could it only represent a location "after the mine/cave is found..." and how is it possible that it can be "several locations"? Even if you use the numbers to go to several locations from the triangle, the location of the triangle can only be in one place.

Good luck in Sonora. I wonder what part the Peraltas will play in your source. I would definitely read all three of your books.

Thanks for the courtesy of a reply,

Joe Ribaudo

[steve]

I've surveyed the different sites on the web posting photos of the Stone Maps.

I would greatly appreciate if someone could email to me good copies of all sides of the Stone Maps. Perhaps we could make an arrangement.
Thanks for considering this request.

[walker12]

Steve, for your pictures try this link - http://home1.gte.net/ltdan/stones.htm