The Stone Maps

[Joe Ribaudo]

Hound Dog,

Absolutly. If you see a good sized area for a camp, let me know. If you have a GPS, so much the better.

Respectfully,

Joe

[hound dog]

Joe,
Got one and will keep my eyes open, If you know of a place in the area you or anyone else might like let me know. I have never been in that area before, that I remember anyway.

Hound dog

[hound dog]

Hay Joe,
Just got back in from the out-back. Keep an eye out for a place to set camp. I think the area around Cochran would be our best bet. However this was my first time to the area. The train tunnel, coke ovens, and a couple of mines were all cool, and lets not forget all that water, were does it all come from? Will pass along more in a PM


Hound dog

[Joe Ribaudo]

Hound Dog,

I have taken your suggestion and moved this topic to the "Moderated" forum.

Thanks for eyeballing Cochran. Sorry if I sent you on a "Wild Goose Chase".

Respectfully,

Joe

[hound dog]

No problem it was a good trip anyway.

Hound dog

[Wyatt Westwood]

You can count me and my small group of Dutchhunters in. Five in all.
We all love to camp and talk about the dutchman.

That is if your all serious? I know the area your in very well.

Wyatt

[Knun]

This could be fun.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wyatt,

Would that be five more than the five of you?

Joe

[Wyatt Westwood]

Hey there Joe, I guess wee will all be joining you, all five of us.

Looks like no one wants to go on your moderated forum and make plans for it so I guess were are all you got.

Wyatt, Bill of 711, TGH, Joe Jr, & Johnny Quest

Oops, never mind, looks like the trips over.

Soooo sorry,
poor old pitiful Joe.

[azdave35]

hey wyatt...you gonna bring doc holliday with you?

[bill711]

If JOE has anything todo with it; It will be a great WINGDING!!!!! bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wyatt........,

You are correct, sir. The trip is "over". That is, for the five or however many there are of you. I want to spend the time with like-minded friends, not multi-minded clowns.

"poor old pitiful" Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

Anyone who plans on making it to the "Rendezvous" will need to send me their name, phone number, home address and e-mail address.

I understand if anyone wants to back out with this much information required, but that information will not be given to anyone else.

I will call each of you to confirm your identity, and all information concerning the event will be individually transmitted.

Sorry for the paranoia, but I like to keep things as smooth as possible.

Send your information to:

[email protected]

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[JIM HAMRICK]

I have been recovering from a hip replacement and other related work upon my body and am hoping to be able to explore some places that I know about or have been told about. I have promised a friend of mine to take him to and old mine site where in the fifties you could pick up nuggets of turquoise. The mine is located off the Box Canyon Road and if we would be welcomed at your encampment we might come by for a while.

Has a firm date been set?

Thanks--------Jim Hamrick

[Joe Ribaudo]

Jim,

You would be welcome in our camp.

The date and exact location will be set after I make a pre-run into the area as soon as the temp's drop a bit.

I will give everyone ample time to make their arrangements. Send me your personal information by e-mail. I will give you mine in return. On the other hand, maybe Wyatt will just stop pussy-footing around and let everyone know.

I hope to have a pretty good sized camp, but there will be room for as many as want to attend. So far, all of the people who have expressed a desire to be there, are well spoken, intelligent and have a great deal of knowledge (excluding myself, of course) in the lore of the LDM, the Stone Maps and Jesuit History.

I have no doubt that some will be somewhat tight-lipped, but I happen to know that a few may be willing to share some of their research. The one thing that I am sure will happen, is that people will meet, like some, dislike others and probably make some life long friends. If anyone believes that won't or can't happen, don't bother coming.

No one knows all there is to know in the above mentioned fields, but if we put fifteen or twenty of these people in one place, there won't be much that is a mystery to the group as a whole.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]

[WyattWestwood]

Deleted......

[Knun]

This relates to another post as well as this one.

Didn't John Kochera spend some time working on the stone maps?

I believe he ended up on Black Top.

No disrespect to the Stones but it almost seems as though he went through the "larger and larger circle" phase.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Knun,

It would appear that the man who knows the true story of the Kochera brothers, prefers to keep the information to himself. Not always a bad idea.

The first question that comes to mind, is: Why would the Kochera's need to use anything except the information provided by Haywood? Are we to believe that Haywood sent them to find a bit of ore that, at one time, he had seen by a trail?

Dr. Glover say that he has seen two letters from Kochera, that contradict each other. That seems to make the entire story suspect, at the very least.

Did Kochera end up on Black Top Mesa? A lot of people did. He said in a letter to Ron Feldman: "The gold ore specimens, now in possession of Ron Feldman, were found by my brother joe and I in April 1962.....It had been in an old rotten leather or rawhide bag. There was 24 pounds of it. We searched all around but could find no more, nor was there any bones or skeletons. We thought that there must be a mine nearby where it came from, but after years of searching we never could find it....."

The above information came from page 360 and 361 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" by, Dr. Glover. He also states that Ron paid more for the sample than it was worth, and that he also paid Ron more than it was worth when he acquired it. It is not unusual for ore samples to be bought and sold for a lot more than they are worth. One needs a "story" to inflate the real value.

Respectfully,

Joe

[kk]

Joe,
Unless I am mistaken (which could highly be likely), the contradition that Dr. Glover talks about with the Kochera letters comes from the direction to the location of the fiind..not of the find itself.
Dr. Glover's passage from page 361 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" states that he ommitted part of the letter because it contains directions that are self contradictory and they are at a variance with the directions given in the one other Kochera letter that he had read. He goes on to state that while treasure hunters may trust you with many things, they like to keep locations to themselves. The other parts of the Kochera letter seem to be consistant in content.
Now since the locations contradict themselves, you feel the whole story is "suspect"? At the time of the sale to both men, the comparison to the dutchman's ore was not known, so why would someone need to invent a story to inflate anything. I believe at the time of the sale to Ron, all Kochera knew was that the gold was found by him and his brother in the superstitions and was unaware that it would be later found (after Dr. Glover aquired some) to match that of the dutchman. Or am I wrong?
thank-you
kk

[Joe Ribaudo]

kk,

There is an old legal principle which says: False in one thing, false in all things.

The one thing that I know for sure, is that if Dr. Glover says he has two letters, both from the same man, and they contradict each other as to a material statement, then a lie has been told.

Despite what has been written on this site, the truth is very important to me. I despise people who knowingly lie.

What I believe to be a fact (the lie) has to do with my trust in the character of Dr. Glover. That being said, one must guess as to the reason for the "contradictions". Your reasoning, as well as Dr. Glover's, seems reasonable. I did not make the same leap, as to explaining the differences as the two of you have.

I believe there is good reasoning on my part, as well as yours.

When people lie, and then try to tell the same lie later, it is often difficult, if not impossible to tell the same story. This would be especially true for something like complicated directions. On the other hand, the Haywood story would be fairly easy to repeat.

Not having seen the two letters, I can only make a judgement as to what Dr. Glover has presented us. That judgement is that a lie was told, either in the first letter, the second letter, or in both. The conclusion, for me, that flows from that judgement is: Falsis in unum, falsis in omnibus.

"I believe at the time of the sale to Ron, all Kochera knew was that the gold was found by him and his brother in the superstitions and was unaware that it would be later found (after Dr. Glover aquired some) to match that of the dutchman. Or am I wrong?"

I believe you are wrong.

"Concerning the unusual fingerprint we found in the jewelry and Superstition ores, and the tentative conclusion that this fingerprint is almost unique for ores from central Arizona, we need to briefly dicuss ore deposits in terms of what I'll call their 'broadness'. Many of us think of a precious metals deposit as a local event, one confined to a specifiic mine or closely related group of mines. But, precious metal deposits can cover wide areas in terms of the gangue elements associated with the gold and silver. Thus, a map of precious metal deposits may show bands stretching hundreds of miles where gold ores occurring within the band will share a certain combination of trace elements. Such bands may stretch from Colorado to California, for example."

I suppose, if one wanted the gold "to match", an argument could be found in favor of that conclusion.

What Dr. Glover has done in this statement, from page 361 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz", is what any prudent man of science would do. He has not made the "match" that you have concluded. I considered highlighting all of the wriggle room words in the above quote, but you do not need me to point them out.

In another comment towards the top of the same page, Dr. Glover concludes: "However, the consistency of the results and their similarity to other Superstition ores and only those ores, argue very strongly for the conclusions drawn."

The word "match" does not appear in the notes for Chapter 21.

Any collector would be willing to pay more for "Superstition" ore. It is really pretty rare, perhaps, non-existant. I don't believe anyone can disprove that statement. The story that may have been invented to inflate the value of the ore, is that it came from the Superstition Mountains, and was very rich. A short leap, for a Dutch Hunter, to think it could be from the Lost Dutchman Mine.

All of my opinions are just that.

Respectfully,

Joe

[kk]

Joe,
If you want to call John Kochera a liar, that is certainly your choice. Easy to call a dead man a liar…you get no arguments back from him.
Me, I’m not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bath water because of a few farts.
What with the likes of Crazy Jake (and others) around, ready to blow Weaver’s Needle into another state if he thought there was gold under it, I think it was very prudent of the likes of Kochera to not give the location of anything . And if that meant for him to give several different locations to hide the vicinity, well so be it.
Doesn’t sound to me that he got rich off the find either, unless you have proof that he did profit in some way other than the money he received from his ore samples. $500.00 (if that is indeed the correct figure) doesn’t seem to be a lot for a lifetime of Dutch hunting. I have not heard any stories of him trying to fraud people out of money like many others. (Crazy Jake comes to mind).
And, if he did it for the fame…where are the books he wrote, the testimonials he received or attended, or any transcripts from the lectures that he gave. Is there even a picture of him with the find? Men calling you a liar after your death also seems a great reason to seek fame! Perhaps, there is more info on the man in the Superstition Mountain Museum, but unfortunately I have never been there. The only info I have on the man is what I have read in books and was told from people who knew him. I guess, I just don’t see a sinister motive for his story, like you evidentially do. But, you are most certainly entitled to your opinions. Just as everyone else is, also.
Perhaps, it’s a man thing..sort of like penis envy? (something I just can’t relate to) Since I have never heard of your Uncle Chuckie providing you with any “Ribaudo Gold”, perhaps it’s a case of “Ore envy”! I could very well be wrong about your uncle though, and would gladly look at the ore specimen sample analysis, if you would provide a book name and page number that I could reference to. Perhaps the case is you wanted the Ribaudo name to be famously connected to the lost Dutchman’s mine legend…you have succeeded in your own right, Joe. One only needs to google it and you can come up with at least 1760 hits from this site alone…making you one of the leading “authorities” on the matter. Congrats, hope it make you a fortune!
I do agree with you about one thing, though, I too despise people who knowingly lie…that’s why I never did like “Heidi”, the --“girl” from Ramona, CA that is. Kinda despised her from the get-go!
But, these thoughts are just my opinions.
Sincerely,
kk

[Joe Ribaudo]

kk,

I learned a long time ago, never get in a pissing contest with a "gal". You will always underestimate their abilities.

My answer to you was opinions, as I noted. You have chosen to make a personal attack in response. It is obvious you are not who you claim to be, but one of the little people, trying to continue the destructive dialog.

You are now playing with the big boys, not me, because I willl no longer play your game. Have a good time.

Joe Ribaudo

[Wiz]

kk,

FWIW, I may be remembering wrong, but I think the $500 was what Dr. Glover paid for the sample he bought from Ron Feldman. Which brings up an interesting question - what happened to the other twenty-odd thousand dollars that the gold was worth? That's probably a non-question; $20,000 isn't that much and it likely went fast.

I would think that Kochera was at least thinking about the Dutchman connection by the time he sold the ore to Ron; however, when he and his brother first came looking for it they may have never even heard of the LDM. I have never heard that Kochera was an experienced geologist; the idea of the ore sample matching LDM ore might not have occurred to him. He may not have even known there was a surviving sample of LDM ore to compare with.

I also suspect you're dead on about his reasons for (allegedly) providing different directions. However, until someone produces the letters, we only have Dr. Glover's assertion that the directions ARE contradictory. Possibly they are to him, not to someone else. You quoted "He goes on to state that while treasure hunters may trust you with many things, they like to keep locations to themselves." I suspect this may apply as much to Dr. Glover's reticence to print the directions, as to the directions themselves.

-W

[TGH]

Just cant help yourself can you , Ribadope?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

I can, and will help myself. I did not address you, or did I? This will be the end of our conversation, at least from my side.

Joe Ribaudo