In a previous post, I alluded to the two different versions I had heard concerning the length of time Waltz was gone when he came back with gold. One version has it that he was only gone a few days; another says he would be gone weeks at a time. It would make a difference as to what it was he was visiting.
Any thoughts from anyone?
Also: Does anyone know of any existing documentation concerning the story where Julia bought the soda fountain, then was deserted by her husband who took all the money and left her broke, and finally that Waltz bailed her out with some gold? Any receipts, records, etc?
Finally: Does anyone have any information about Harry van Sewitt (probably spelled wrong). His name has come up a few times lately, but I never heard of him before that. I know he ran a crew of Dutch hunters back in the 60's or 70's, but nothing else.
Thanks.
Some small issues
Debts
Wiz,
Hi. Regarding Waltz's time away in the mountains... There are many different stories and time frames. This makes it hard to determine if he was consistently gone approximately the same amount of time. Who is to say... But, my gut feel is that Waltz was a wanderer... He could have been away from Phoneix for weeks on end and only been in the Superstitions a week or so.
Regarding the soda fountain... There are indeed records to partially substantiate what Julia told Bark and Ely about Waltz bailing her out. For the time frame in question there are records indicating payment arrangements Julia made towards various creditors. There were more debts that just the soda fountain. (I do not have info here in front of me right now, but tonight I could look up the book numbers and page numbers where these are recorded in Maricopa County records of the time...) While the debts and payment arrangements are verifiable, the actual sale of gold to get Julia the money is not... We have to make a calculated assumption and give Julia the benefit of a doubt. She got money somehow... Julia always said Waltz gave her the money (gold) to help get the creditors off her back and in fact told her what sorts of payment arrangements to make. I am not certain she actually paid everyone off in full. Because the reords show she made hefty partial payments with arrangements to pay the balances. If one takes a calculator and starts adding up the few hundred here, several hundred there, it all adds up to some good sized capital she "all of the sudden" obtained.
Robert Sikorski was one of the first to uncover this information. His interpreatation was that Julia busted her fanny and "all of the sudden" came up with hundreds and hundreds of dollars in a short period of time to pay the debts. While possible, it is very improbable. If she could do that, why was she in debt in the first place? And why was she never able to pull that off again? I tend to believe she indeed received the money as she always said: Waltz gave it to her.
Hi. Regarding Waltz's time away in the mountains... There are many different stories and time frames. This makes it hard to determine if he was consistently gone approximately the same amount of time. Who is to say... But, my gut feel is that Waltz was a wanderer... He could have been away from Phoneix for weeks on end and only been in the Superstitions a week or so.
Regarding the soda fountain... There are indeed records to partially substantiate what Julia told Bark and Ely about Waltz bailing her out. For the time frame in question there are records indicating payment arrangements Julia made towards various creditors. There were more debts that just the soda fountain. (I do not have info here in front of me right now, but tonight I could look up the book numbers and page numbers where these are recorded in Maricopa County records of the time...) While the debts and payment arrangements are verifiable, the actual sale of gold to get Julia the money is not... We have to make a calculated assumption and give Julia the benefit of a doubt. She got money somehow... Julia always said Waltz gave her the money (gold) to help get the creditors off her back and in fact told her what sorts of payment arrangements to make. I am not certain she actually paid everyone off in full. Because the reords show she made hefty partial payments with arrangements to pay the balances. If one takes a calculator and starts adding up the few hundred here, several hundred there, it all adds up to some good sized capital she "all of the sudden" obtained.
Robert Sikorski was one of the first to uncover this information. His interpreatation was that Julia busted her fanny and "all of the sudden" came up with hundreds and hundreds of dollars in a short period of time to pay the debts. While possible, it is very improbable. If she could do that, why was she in debt in the first place? And why was she never able to pull that off again? I tend to believe she indeed received the money as she always said: Waltz gave it to her.
Re: Some small issues
Wiz,Wiz wrote: Does anyone know of any existing documentation concerning the story where Julia bought the soda fountain, then was deserted by her husband who took all the money and left her broke, and finally that Waltz bailed her out with some gold? Any receipts, records, etc?
If you go to the Main Phoenix library downtown, you can search the micro fiche reels of old Phoenix newspapers. You can easily find Waltz' obituary notice. On the same page there is an add for julia Thomas' Ice Cream Parlor. <hiccup>
She advertised every week in the paper. If you search back from there, I bet the addition of the soda fountain would have been big news for the valley at the time, and there should be something about it in the paper. If not, you should be able to see when she started advertising the Ice Cream in her ads. <hiccup> (Soooo glad New Years only comes once a year! )I went down there one time to do that search, but I burned up all my time reading stories about Geronimo. It seems that they were still blaming raids on him long after he shipped out to Florida!
Of course my memory is a bit confused this evening <hiccup>
But I did get all hung up on Geronimo articles... Maybe I was in an out of place reel? LW
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Some Missed the Train
4Ravens and LW,
It was and is, not correct to blame Geronimo for any Apache depredations that took place in the forty years after his final surrender in 1886. He never participated in any raid from that day, to the day that he died.
The Apache who escaped the relocation slipped away to the Sierra Madre Mountains of Mexico, and lived there for the next forty years, or so, very much as they had for generations before. This small group of survivors were said to be "Geronimo's people". There is very good documentation of this if anyone is interested.
Joe Ribaudo
It was and is, not correct to blame Geronimo for any Apache depredations that took place in the forty years after his final surrender in 1886. He never participated in any raid from that day, to the day that he died.
The Apache who escaped the relocation slipped away to the Sierra Madre Mountains of Mexico, and lived there for the next forty years, or so, very much as they had for generations before. This small group of survivors were said to be "Geronimo's people". There is very good documentation of this if anyone is interested.
Joe Ribaudo