LDM Mine Descriptions - Your Favorite Clue

[Roger]

For those that have done a considerable amount of research on the Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, you have undoubtedly collected what you consider the most legitimate descriptions of what the immediate mine area of the LDM looks like from the mass of information and "clues" that are out there. I propose a Round Robin by each of those interested to post what they consider the most legitimate "clue" they have found that describes what the LMD mine looks like. Only one clue per posting and you can't post again until at least 3 others have posted their clues.

I"ll begin the process with my favorite clue that creates a unique description of the LDM mine area:

In the Bark Notes published by Thomas Probert on pages 77-78, Bark tells the story he got from a man named Forebach who had been told the following story by a Pima Indian, Wat, about a fight he participated in against the Apaches in the Superstition Mountains:

"That they had jumped some Apache Indians and defeated them and the Apaches went up a canyon. The Pimas felt sure they had them blocked, as they did not think they could get out of the canyon on account of it being boxed above. To avoid an ambush, Antonio sent Wat and another Indian up on the side of the canyon and told them to keep abreast or just ahead of the main body down in the canyon.

Wat said tht there were no warriors need on the other side, as it was a straight cliff, and it was pretty rough going on the other side.

All at once he saw where there had been considerable mining work done. He picked up a piece of rock, weighing about a pound, and it was full of yellow stuff. He called down to the main bunch in the bottom of the canyon, that he had found a rich gold mine. Just then the Apaches began shooting. Wat does not know what he did with the rock.

The Apaches got out of the canyon but none of the Pimas knew how, as they had to go back down. ....."

This is about as good a description as I have seen of the actual canyon the LDM is located in including the fact that the Apaches got out of the top of a boxed canyon - is this the "trick on the trail" as Deering said that they used to get out??

Tag - your're it!! Who"s next??

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,
Very nice. A fresh approach. For me, if legitimate, the Waltz drawing from page 87 in Helen Corbin's first book. What could be better then a Dutchman drawing showing the area of his mine? I believe it's legit because of artifacts found just off the crest of the saddle, which are identical to objects which would have been carried by Jacob Waltz. In addition to that would be the monuments I found twenty-five years ago very close to the same saddle. Still trying to find out if the copy of that drawing came from Bark. Seems like I read that someplace. Thanks for asking the question.
Joe

[old7up]

In the Sims Ely book the Dutchman was saying that to find his mine you needed to find his cache. It said that there were three caches, two small ones and one large one and that he made them close to where his camp was -away from the mine. One small one he took when his partner left and the other small one he went back for years later. The large cache at that time of his death was never found by anyone. " IF you find my cache you will find my mine!"" If you don't find my cache you won't find my mine!".

[S.C.]

I am somewhat surprised this topic has not generated more discussion. Other "treads" have - in spirit - covered the notion of our "favorite clues." Though, within the context of other topics. Then again, perhaps it is not surprising as many hold their favorite clues as guarded - secret - information and are reluctant to discuss things. It is the nature of Dutch hunting.

Roger brought up one my favorite Indian stories related to the Superstitions: the Apache-Pima "confrontation" in the Bark Notes. And Joe mentions his obvious favorite, the Waltz Drawing. And old7up mentions the idea of the mine being close to Waltz's caches. All these are good, valid bits of information.

But, there were also comments made under other topics stating the obvious - no one single clue is going to help one find anything. It is a body of clues - a body of information. Some believe their own set of information - whereas other do not, having their own different body of data. Again, it is the nature of Dutch hunting. We all have our own paths to follow.

I am a firm believer in the "body of evidence" school of thought. Actually, the standard Jacob Waltz aspect of the LDM (either the Thoams Petrasch side - or the Holmes side) is the weakest of all. A good friend of mine once said (and I paraphrase...) "you can throw out the whole Jacob Waltz legend and still have enough information by other supporting tales to come to the conclusion there was a mine somewhere in the Superstitions..." This is true.... When one thinks about it....

So, this gets back to the question the question "what is your favorite clue?" Well... I have to say a body of things. Not one in particular. But, I agree with my esteemed friend. One does not even have to look at Jacob Waltz. There are the tales of the Two Soldiers and Joe Deering, and a slew of indian stories that all support the notion of a mine somewhere in the Superstitions.

The question is... where? And that goes back to interpretation. What I see in the Two Soldiers tale and the other stuff is different than what others might see.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
Nice job of dancing around this topic. It would seem that the only clue which you might not want to disclose as your favorite, would be one that is unknown to the public. The overall body of evidence is not a clue. It is hundreds of clues. You, as well as the rest of us, have a favorite clue out of those hundreds. I gave my own favorite two, one unknown to other Dutch Hunters, without disclosing anything specific. Both of my clues were things, not stories. If you were to say, my favorite clue is the Fish map, would that give something away? Ron has found that map located North of the Salt River. Many place it on Black Top Mesa. Others think it shows a mine on Black Mountain. The Stone Maps have been placed in even more locations then that. Pick a clue and give us your reasons, even if it's only to lead us away from your area of interest. At least that will give us all something to think about. With your knowledge you could give a valid argument for any clue in the legend. The rest of you could come out of hiding and tease Rodger with some kind of answer.
Joe

[S.C.]

Joe,

I do indeed like to dance.... Especially the waltz.... ; )

A favorite "anything" is hard to pick. I believe in a large body of evidence. Okay... here you go... A "firm" set of clues...

The Two Soldiers story. The trail they followed - note the description of what they encountered. And then what they found.

Next... the "swamper" who followed them.

Then where their bodies were found.

Lastly, to round it out... the story of Ernest Pankinin. And his tale of a club foot man in Alaska giving him directions to a mine. And how that meshes with the Two Soldiers.

All of these to me - through MY interpretation - seem very sound. And make me think that what they found was not on the west side of the range nor the east side. But instead, in the middle of what people might think is standard Dutchman territory. However, give the same info to someone else and they might come to a different conclusion.

I also like - as a "firm" clue - the story that Walt Gassler relates about Tex Barkley and an Indian friend going up a canyon and the Indian getting nervous. The Indian flees and waves up canyon and say there's a gold mine to the first canyon to the right.

Then - as another "firm" clue - there is the good old Apache Jack story. I really think there is something to it.

And Brownie Holmes, the old Pima, and three water tanks or pools.

Those are a few of my favorites.

HOWEVER, the following are things I do NOT think are very important at all:
The Stone Maps (sorry folks...)
The Perfil Mapa (sorry again...)
References to THE Three Red Hills (Red knolls, yes. THE 3 Red Hills, no.)
Shadows of Weavers Needle...


S.C.

[Peter]

Folks would probably be more amenable to telling you what clues they DONT beleive in, rather than what they do beleive.

SC made some good comments, and I am in agreement with some of the points he raises. Not too sure about the Soldiers story, but I generally feel the same about the clues he mentioned.

In addition I wouldnt put too much faith in maps...those on paper, leather or parchment. Entire books have been written on various maps and bogus clues such as:

Killer Mountains (Perfil Mapa)
Treasure Secrets of Lost Dutchman (Weedin-Walker Map)
IN search of he Clues...(WeaversNeedle at 4 o'clock)

I guess when your favorite map/clue doesnt work out, its time to write a book....lol

There are maybe 4-5 maps that show the possible location of the LDM
as my understanding of the clues goes. A couple of them are posted on this web site...so they are not super secret stuff.

And no Joe, I do not care to elaborate on the maps.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C. and Peter,
I am sure this is exactly what Roger was looking for when he created this topic. Hopefully, more members will contribute in the same vein. I also am partial to the two soldiers story. I don't think their story describes a trail six or seven miles long, worn into solid rock. Such a trail would not be difficult to find, even now. There are many clues in that story which ring true.
As for Peter's comment about writing a book: So far the only serious money made in the Superstitions has been derived from writing books. Unless someone in the forum has made a killing with a treasure found and kept seceret, we can accept that as a true statement. Films and packers are excluded from that statement. He is fairly close on his statement about the number of maps which might show the LDM. If we accept that as the truth, then you can not discount the Stone Maps, as they show the same location.
Peter,
I don't think I asked you if you cared to elaborate on any maps. I do concede that you should not elaborate on the location of the mountain we were discussing. The Apache have no room for argument if we tread on their sacred locations. How would we know?
You have both given us food for thought and discussion.
Joe

[S.C.]

Ahhh... This forum is so fun! We get to "waltz"and "dance around the issues"...

I guess I might seem to be a spoil-sport to some. And I do not mean to brust anyone's bubble. Also, I appreciate Joe's comments and respect his views and opinions. To each, his own. We all believe in different things and have different priorities and agendas. That makes Dutch hunting interesting. But, I personnally just cannot accept the stone maps in any way, shape, or form. That is just me. But, if someone else believes they show something, then power to them.

I still think no one map or group of maps are going to find anyone the mine. They might indicate a general area. But, not an exact location. Like Peter, I think there are a handful of good maps. To be honest, I think the Fish Map is one. But neither the Stone Maps or the Ruth-Gonzales Perfila Mapa are in that group of "good" maps. That is just my opinion.

"Clues" go back to the arena of guarded secrets. To ask what someone's favorite clue is - to some - getting into jealuously guarded areas. It is almost like asking someone like Clay Worst to post the Holmes deathbed instructions passed on from Waltz to Dick to Brownie to Clay. I doubt he (Clay) would give out such precious information. So, I suppose we all can see why all we get are the "dancing around the issue..." the "hem -hawing"... and the "vague answers". There is only so much one can talk about without giving away too much or violating a trust. And, in the Dutch hunting world, there has been a lot of violating of trusts.

But, to me, the most significant clues are those that come from the oriignal source(s) as early as possible. I think clues given to Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch are important. Unfortunately, they themselves, over time, distorted the clues - as did others in later years. Thus, we have these clues with a life of their own that never came from Waltz such as the Three Red Hills, the shadow of Weavers Needle, window rocks, horseheads, etc. I also have faith that Waltz told Gideon Roberts and Dick Holmes something. And, he could have talked to others as well - such as Charles Roberts and cohorts as Milton Rose thinks. Now, since Rhiney and Julia are no longer with us and never directly put anything to paper we have to look at secondary sources. These would include people such as Hermann Petrasch. I think he had valid information he gathered from the two. Also, PC Bicknell. And Jim Bark. And John Mitchell. All three talked to both Rhiney and Julia (though, at different times). Of the three, I trust Bark to have received the most info, at the earliest date. I am sure there are also others involved with them early on that got good info. Such as Jim Hatt's great great grandfather who accompanied the Petrasches on very early expeditions. Other than that, we have the Holmes family information. They were tight lipped and jealuosly guarded their information. Even though we have the Holmes Manuscriot, many clues or directions are still shaded to protect the truth. However, some are as appears and are - in my opinion - signifcant.

If you go much beyond this, you have distortions. The one thing that always impressed me was that the Holmeses doggedly held to their story unwaveringly. Some say this was to protect and hide a "lie"... Maybe. But, I tend to think they thought they had unique - and special - information they thought important enough that they needed to keep it guarded and away from others.

So, what does this mean. To me, I put credence in the clues (the "public clues") presented by the Holmes family in Brownie's manuscript. Are they my favorite? No. But, they are up there high on the list.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
Nice reply. Since you don't accept the Stone Maps, " In any way, shape or form", why not give your reasons? I know the arguments against them, but perhaps you have a unique perspective about them. I personaly don't base my conclusions on them, but there are to many coincidences to dismiss them entirely. Having followed the maps and found many of the things depicted on them, including the circle in a circle at the end of the trail, I think they have some validity. If you use them with the body of evidence available to everyone, you might find a little truth along with the portions which are obviously a fraud. The maps which are frequently shown, do not appear to be the originals, much like every other map in this legend.
I find Julia to be important because of what she did not say more then what she personaly said to the Dutch Hunters of the time. She may be the most important clue in finding the LDM. In my opinion, Julia's story is more important then any other in the Dutchman's story.
A lot of speculation in this reply, so I could, of course be wrong.
Joe

[S.C.]

Joe,

I have stated in other posts why I feel uncomfortable with the stones maps. But, I will go over them again. Basically, I think they are fakes. So, I cannot put any credence into them. I know to you they are not the soul-single "pointer" to the LDM. But, they do support other information you have. And, I have to say the circle of stones is indeed interesting. But, I think they are created in recent times and represent nothing more than "wishful thinking."

Every other week I check ebay for antique coloring books. Why? A long story. But, I am looking for something. Call me a fool. But, I once saw a coloring book that had a little boy named "Bobby" - I believe - feeding a horse a carrot. It was called "Animals on the Farm" and was from the 1930s. The horse in the picture looked exaclty like the horse on one of the stone tablets. I hope to find that coloring book one day. So, that is MY unique perspective.

However, in principle, I agree with your statement that there might be a small bit of something that is true in the maps and to not totally dismiss them.

I do agree about Julia Thomas. She should have received some really important infortmation. But, what ever became of it is the mystery.

[Ron]

S.C.





I would say I agree with your total opinion of the rock maps, but who can say, as Joe said? What I don't put alot of stock in is the Holmes manuscript. This is largely do to the times I was able to talk to Brownie Holmes , and what I got from what he said. The most important thing in the Holmes story , is the exixtance of the ore.

I'm from the Petrasch camp, and like Joe feel what Julia and Rhiney knew was probaly the closest to the truth. However , how does anyone really know what they knew?
Luckily we do have some written interviews and info from Herman Petrasch. As an example, the interview of Mary Bagwell, in Desert Magazine, back in the 50's, with Herman. Read that again , it speaks volumes. This man, to me, was of anyone in so called recent times ,the closest link we had to the mine. Maybe we should all learn a lesson from loosing these people of history , before information is lost forever. I realize noone is going to record everything they know , before they check out though. More has been taken to the graves than is available to us now.
To pick a favorite clue, is as some have indicated a difficult job, but it will be only one or a handful of clues that will be found when the mine is found. Certainly the whole body of clues won't all fit. One of my favorites , is the two room house in a cave. They're of course many versions of this clue , but I feel it will be found when the mine is located. The clues that I believe S.C. said were bogus, I must agree with. One of the books that I put stock in, is John Mitchell's information. This was a real treasure hunter that collected and wrote about the stories with some degree of authenticity.
This may be an appropiate time , while talking of the clues, books, maps, and information to give credit to a man that has done more for most Dutchman hunters than most, and that is Greg Davis. Thank you for your help.

[S.C.]

I agree about Greg. A lot of credit has to go to Greg for all the work he has done for decades researching the LDM and Jacob Waltz.

[Peter]

Ron

I'd second the motion on the Mitchell information. His clues, if I recall correctly, derive from both Petrasch and Ballesteros. Mentions a rock house (two actually), a north running canyon filled with potholes,etc...
Good stuff.

I too appreciate Greg's help (and collecton). So much so that I had a couple of nice surprises for Greg last time I visited with him...didnt I? lol

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
The reason for this forum and this particular topic, is precisely what just took place. You are not alone in the search for that picture. Sadly, Bobby has nothing to do with the horse map, so you and others are wasting valuable time. I said before that I thought the horse and the priest map were fakes. The horse is not a copy of a picture in a coloring book, although it may, by coincidence, look the same. You could probably search for a hundred years and not come up with the real model for that picture. It is in the Superstitions.
Glad to hear you feel what happened to the information Julia possesed is a mystery. Makes me feel warm, fuzzy and.......secure.
Ron,
Nice to hear from you again.
Herman Petrasch was indeed as close as it comes to what might be considered, best evidence by most Dutch Hunters. What evidence do you believe he provided us? Do you think it would be reliable? Would you follow in his footsteps to find the LDM? If not- why not?

I have just given this forum information concerning the horse map, that I believe to be totaly unknown, except to the maker of that map. I have said before, that I will not say anything here that is not a known fact to me, unless I say otherwise. My comments concerning the horse are factual.
I have seen a shadow image of the priest on the South side of Weavers Needle, which was pointed out to me by my uncle. He took a picture of it. Neither of these will lead to a mine or treasure. Good luck looking for that horse. Finding Bobby's book will be child's play compared to finding the Stone Map horse in the Superstitions.
Joe

[S.C.]

Ron,

Your statement about not having too much faith in the Holmes manuscript interests me. What did Brownie indicate to you when you spoke with him to make you think that way?

S.C.

[Ron]

S.C.

It was the feeling I came away with ,after talking to Brownie. He withheld , I felt , much, and in the manuscript itself he told me , as I remember, that it was tampered with , so I always felt uncertain to put much stock into it, but remember, that was over 35 years ago. More than that , as I said I have come to believe more in the Petrasch stories, which then kind of negates some of the things in the Holmes manuscript, doesn't it?

Joe,

I stated that for those that have not , to read the interview of Herman in Desert Magazine. I can give you dates if need be. It speaks reems of information, but much more it is the information I gleaned through Ted Cox, and what he said about knowing Herman and his brother. I have researched much on that information , to find that it was correct. Most of what I wrote on the Petraschs in " Crooked Mountain" was not made up , even though in some places I may, as someone noted , thrown a wide loop. I absolutely believe that Herman Petrasch knew where the mine was. Why that information didn't precipitate down to the general knowledge , I will let you deliberate on.

[señor x]

Ron: I'd be interested in knowing the year/date of the article in Desert magazine. Does anyone know where back issues are available? I see that www.desertusa.com has some back articles of Desert on its web site, but not very many.

Sorry, got that web site wrong. The one I meant was: http://www.usdesertsearch.org/.

[S.C.]

senor x,

long time, no see... glad to hear from you again.

The Hermann Petrasch interview was in the following:

"The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Mary Bagwell
in Desert Magazine
Jan. 1954

While I agree with Ron and others that we should not forget about Hermann Petrasch and what he tried to piece together - as sense - out of what Rhiney and Julia heard from Waltz, we must still take what he says with a grain of salt. Hermann said things over the years that just could not have been true. Especially regarding his "personal" knowledge of Jacob Waltz.
[/u]

[Joe Ribaudo]

senor x,
I had the same results as you did. Maybe we just need Ron to scan and
e-mail the article. It's a little hard to swallow that Herman knew the exact location of the mine. Seems like a lot of people connected to the Superstitions, just can't use the millions. Waltz, Petrasch and of course, Bob Ward and the eighteen million dollars worth of Ted DeGrazia's pictures.
Just when did Herman go insane, and why did he keep looking? Good story though.
Joe

S.C.,
You little devil. You slipped that in while I typing my own reply.

[S.C.]

It was Gottfried Petrasch - father of Hermann and Rhinhardt - who went "insane." Not Hermann. Actually, Gottfried had a nervous breakdown and tried to kill himself or something. At the time, there was no other place to care for such a person, so he ended up at a state mental asylum. He really wasn't "insane."

Hermann kept "looking" until the 1950s. His brother Rhiney went blind and commited suicide - more for that reason than that he couldn't locate the LDM. That was in 1947, I believe.

Julia Thomas did not die the penniless destitute person Ely made her our to be. (Selling maps and living on hand-outs.) She died with several thousands of dollars in personal property. She had converted to Judaism and was befriend by a Phoenix family in her final days. She was hardly the occult visionary throwing colored powders into fires and forcasting the end of the world. True, she might have been very spiritual and thus was led to various religious pursuits. But, she was of sound mind during her final days - having found solace in Judaism.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
Tongue in cheek question, but thanks for taking it seriously. I had originally put a wink in there, but thought it might be misconstrued, so I removed it.
The stories concerning Julia Thomas suit me just fine. It makes a lot of Dutch Hunters pass over her importance. That won't change because of my comment, and I like that just fine as well. I don't put a lot of stock in the Petrachs's theories. They could not even agree with each other, and they all must have had the same information. It is difficult to believe Julia had bogus directions, or that she was to dense to understand what she was told, or shown. Once she got off trail, they were all in the same sinking boat.
Seems like a lot of folks are missing from the forum. Glad to see a few oars back in the water.
Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ron,
I don't think for one minute you made up that part of your story out of whole cloth; however, if Ted Cox gave you that information, I think, perhaps, maybe, just possibly, he was throwing a mighty wide loop. Good story though.
I don't disbelieve the Petrasch stories, it just stretches credulity a mite, to believe he found the mine, and just sat around cackling about it. It's much
easier for me to believe in the Stone Maps. Now there's a story with some weight to it. Two or four stone, depending on what you personally believe.

S.C.,
In a previous post, you mention Clay Worst would not want to be giving out precious information. None of us would. The question here was, what is your favorite clue? Most of us would use a clue that is published and well known. In those mountains, such a clue can take you anywhere. The Fish map took Ron North of the Salt River. That map is one of my favorite clues and it does not take me out of the Superstitions. The Priest map would take me to the South side of Weavers Needle. Others have found it to be many miles from there. If I believed it was authentic, I would be going down a rope, inside the Needle.
Joe

[Roger]

Here is my 2nd favorite clue to the LDM that continues a set of clues on the description of the canyon that the mine is located in:

Bark Notes Page 36 (Thomas Probert published version): Dr. Thorne said as the Indians unblindfolded his eyes at the mine -

"I was standing on the edge of a deep and very steep canyon, high up. To my left was a spur and on the spur was a light-colored ruin of an old stone corral - not an Indian ruin, but very old and it looked as though it was Aztec.

"We went carefully down the trail on the side of the canyon and when we got down onto a little flat, there was an inclined pit. Quite a lot of work had been done, and the gold could be seen lying around in the quartz that had been brought up out of the pit, and evidently discarded as not being rich enough."

..."as I looked off toward the south, and about five miles away (just a guess as to time and distance), was a sharp peak that looked like a Mexican Sombrero".

...."We started back, but they did not blindfold me until we got to the horses. In the meantime, we walked through a hole or cave, and it had a lot of old Mexican mining tools such as screens, etc. Horses could not go through."

Combining this set of information with that of Wat which I posted at the beginning of this subject, the canyon with the mine in it could be described as follows:

The canyon is very steep and high up. As you stand at the top of the canyon and look down, there is a small spur on the left side of the canyon which might still show signs of the old corral on it. This is probably where the Mexicans kept the mules that were used to carry the ore from the pit mine up to the entrance to the cave that was the exit at the top of canyon. The mules could not go through and the ore was hand carried through the cave to be loaded on other mules on the other side for transport to the arrastras in Marsh Valley or at the Salt River. The left wall of the canyon other that this spur is mostly a vertical wall. The right side of the canyon is not as verticle as the left and there is/was a small trail that leads down the canyon wall to a small flat with a pit mine in it. This has undoubtedly been filled in over the past 100+ years. This is the small flat that Thorne went down to and collected his gold and the same one that Wat climbed up to from the lower canyon to find the gold laying around on the ground. As reported by both Throne and hinted at by Wat, there is a cave at the top of the canyon that leads to the other side and gives the canyon the appearance of being boxed at its head.

The next question in order is:

1) Which way does the canyon run?

There have been a good number of postings to my 1st request on LDM clues, but the responses have been a little light on content. You don't have to say where it is - offer some other input regarding the LDM that you think is important. Tag - you're it!!

Roger

[Peter]

Sorry Roger, but both clues are most likely bogus. Heres why:

1) The Wat story is interesting, but the idea of the Pima (who were a desert people) trailing an Apache war party into the Superstitions (mountains that they absolutely dreaded...and with good reason) stretches credulity a might.
I have researched the story extensively and now beleive it is unlikely to have occurred as set down by Bark.

2) The Thorne story simply did not occur as outlined by Bark. Thorne most
likely came upon his gold outcrop while out hunting while in Apache captivity. The location of his find probably east of the 4 Peaks. No Apache "chief" would reward a white-eyes by taking him
to a gold mine. This simply goes against everything I have learned about Apache ways and customs.

Makes a nice story though.