That makes me wonder: Did Sheriff Montgomery interview Gideon Roberts? If so, would that deposition still be available? Also, does anyone know what exactly were the circumstances of Gideon Robert's death?LDM wrote:Sheriff Montgomery investigated the incident and after hearing everyones story, decided no charges would be filed against Holmes who was allowed to keep the gold. It appeared that without Waltz to testify to the veracity of Holmes story, there was no witness, and charges could not be filed, for lack of evidence.
Sunset
Joe you bring up a very good point with this post - "Lets suppose that S.C., LDM, or I were at the Waltz deathbed, and he gives us the correct directions to the mine. Do you think any of us would have failed to find it. Now consider the same information in the mind of Julia Thomas. "
Some people just have problems following directions. I cannot tell you how many times people with USGS maps have asked me where they were and how could they get to a certain point on the trail. Alternatively some people cannot give proper directions even if they know where things are. They even confuse their left and right hands. I am married to one of those types.
Thus, even today under ideal conditions it can be hard to get and/or understand good directions to obvious locations. Add to this the confusion of a sick man (or coded maps, or overly crude maps, or vague military trail locations, etc.) trying to descibe how to find a hidden mine in a wild an unfamiliar area and you have the present state of affairs.
Some people just have problems following directions. I cannot tell you how many times people with USGS maps have asked me where they were and how could they get to a certain point on the trail. Alternatively some people cannot give proper directions even if they know where things are. They even confuse their left and right hands. I am married to one of those types.
Thus, even today under ideal conditions it can be hard to get and/or understand good directions to obvious locations. Add to this the confusion of a sick man (or coded maps, or overly crude maps, or vague military trail locations, etc.) trying to descibe how to find a hidden mine in a wild an unfamiliar area and you have the present state of affairs.
sunset
Very good points , you all have made. As far as directions given to the mine , remember not much was named back then, thus it would be very hard to tell a woman and a boy how to go to the mine. I think the most important thing of this particular controversy is the existance of the gold itself. Who and how the ore made it to whoever is not as important , for we can debate that forever. The ore is a verifiable piece of the legend, in a story where not much can be verified. I knew Brownie Holmes , and I personally believe his dad had taken the ore when the Dutchman died. Of course Brownie said he gave it to his dad, but again , who knows. I hang my hat largely on the existance of the ore itself.
LDM,
Very good account of the tracing of what happened to the gold ore after the Dutchman's death.
LDM,
Very good account of the tracing of what happened to the gold ore after the Dutchman's death.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sunset
Ron,
The place name problem you mention is a great point. It really takes us right back to the possible Waltz drawing. Enter the mountains from such and such a place, look for this picture and...............the mine will be there.
All we need to do, is find the correct saddle with the Needle as shown, fill in the dot's and the mine will be there. I have personally taken pictures of a dozen such saddles with the Needle framed in them. Might be a problem. Like Elk hunting, the hunt is the big thrill.
It seems that no one wanted to consider that Holmes might have found it impossible to admit that, he was a thief and a liar to his family and friends.
One thing is certain. He would have spent the rest of his life searching for the source of the gold he liberated from beneath the deathbed. To explain his possession of Waltz's gold, he made up the final words of Waltz, giving him the gold and, good friend that he was, the directions to his mine to boot. Could he ever admit to such a disreputable time in his life?
Joe
The place name problem you mention is a great point. It really takes us right back to the possible Waltz drawing. Enter the mountains from such and such a place, look for this picture and...............the mine will be there.
All we need to do, is find the correct saddle with the Needle as shown, fill in the dot's and the mine will be there. I have personally taken pictures of a dozen such saddles with the Needle framed in them. Might be a problem. Like Elk hunting, the hunt is the big thrill.
It seems that no one wanted to consider that Holmes might have found it impossible to admit that, he was a thief and a liar to his family and friends.
One thing is certain. He would have spent the rest of his life searching for the source of the gold he liberated from beneath the deathbed. To explain his possession of Waltz's gold, he made up the final words of Waltz, giving him the gold and, good friend that he was, the directions to his mine to boot. Could he ever admit to such a disreputable time in his life?
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sunset
Aurum,
Eventually I will disclose everything I have discovered, including the location of the Dutchmans Saddle.
As for Holmes, my opinion was offered as an explanation as to why he searched so persistently and sent his son out as well. If he stole the gold, it follows that he had to lie to explain how he got it. Knowing that Waltz must have found it somewhere, and knowing the Superstitions were the best possibility, he took the information available at the time, some of it possibly coming from Roberts, and went looking for the source. My conclusion that Holmes was a liar, I believe, is well founded.
No arrogance is attached to that hypothesis.
Although new evidence is put forth by the serious researchers in this field, almost daily, it is not information commonly known. Few of us have had the time or resources to find these facts. No information, old or new, indicates that Waltz would have been inclined to give Holmes the gold. The idea put forth that he had a sister, and Holmes was to take care of her, has no basis in any facts yet brought to light. As far as I know, the documents which show any involvment with a sister in LDM lore, are non existent. Statements by various witnesses do not constitute proof, even though they may lend a small portion of credence to the story. What I know about Holmes makes me believe he was a thief and a liar.
Joe[/b]
Eventually I will disclose everything I have discovered, including the location of the Dutchmans Saddle.
As for Holmes, my opinion was offered as an explanation as to why he searched so persistently and sent his son out as well. If he stole the gold, it follows that he had to lie to explain how he got it. Knowing that Waltz must have found it somewhere, and knowing the Superstitions were the best possibility, he took the information available at the time, some of it possibly coming from Roberts, and went looking for the source. My conclusion that Holmes was a liar, I believe, is well founded.
No arrogance is attached to that hypothesis.
Although new evidence is put forth by the serious researchers in this field, almost daily, it is not information commonly known. Few of us have had the time or resources to find these facts. No information, old or new, indicates that Waltz would have been inclined to give Holmes the gold. The idea put forth that he had a sister, and Holmes was to take care of her, has no basis in any facts yet brought to light. As far as I know, the documents which show any involvment with a sister in LDM lore, are non existent. Statements by various witnesses do not constitute proof, even though they may lend a small portion of credence to the story. What I know about Holmes makes me believe he was a thief and a liar.
Joe[/b]
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Sunset
Aurum,KW wrote:Today, for the first time in a long while, the sun once again sets on Jacob Waltz's gold.
-K
Hard to believe that this nice little statement spawned such a lengthy discussion. Some interesting facts, totally new to me, have made for a very interesting topic. I said before that a lot of ink has been set to drying on this subject and you put it all in a nutshell with your last post.
If the mine could have been found with the information that Holmes had, published and unpublished, he would have been walking in tall cotton in short order. His story has proven to be of high interest in starting a debate, but like you, I believe it to be irrelevant.
On the other hand, our slight detour into the saddle zone may be highly relevant. I have seen a lot of saddles that match that drawing, but only one that sets in the middle of so many of the legends, maps and historical events. It's one of those clues that you can find anywhere in the Supes, but not usually in conjunction with most of the stories and cast of characters needed to make you certain you are in the right place. Name your favorite place in the mountains for locating the LDM. Somewhere near that place you can find Waltz's drawing. Almost a sure bet. Trouble is, you can't get there from here....unless here is that very spot that Waltz told you to start from. I am less then certain, I could be wrong here.
Joe
P.S.
Looking back on your past post's, I noticed you intimated you had a plan for finding the LDM. I had no idea you were in the hunt. I thought you were just a casual student of the legend. Had I known you were a serious Dutch Hunter, I would never have continued our discussion.
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sunset
Peter,
Your statement is indeed interesting. The two drawings are similar, only from different directions. Is the Deering drawing your favorite clue? It would be a really good one, since few people have seen it. Would that high point be..........blink?
Joe
Your statement is indeed interesting. The two drawings are similar, only from different directions. Is the Deering drawing your favorite clue? It would be a really good one, since few people have seen it. Would that high point be..........blink?
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sunset
Peter,
How did I know that would be your exact response?
Joe
How did I know that would be your exact response?
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sunset
Peter,
I assume that would be a cookie with nuts.
Joe
I assume that would be a cookie with nuts.
Joe