The Black Legion
Lets try this again.
Dzil nchaa si an is NOT n the Supes.
Anyone who would post or publish known (or guessed at) locations of Indeh ritual or burial sites would not only be an insensitive clod, but would anger some folks both red and white (myself among them) who found out about it.
Shi/ si or sh' is possessive...means "my" or "me" in Apache..depending on the dialect (Wht Mtn, Jicarilla, Mescalero, Chiricaha etc...).
One would say"shi ma"
or "sh'ma" to indicate .."my mother". I am hardly an expert and only know a few words and phrases. Athabaskan is extremely difficult for a non-native speaker to pick up, particuarly if they are not conversing with it
on a daily basis. It has taken a long while for me to just get the pronunciation down for the "thl" sound in front of "thlii" (horse) or at the end of "dzil" (mountain).
Thlii sounds almost like "klee" with a bilateral aspiration as the tongue touches the top of the palate.
Dzil sounds a bit like "deeshk".
Dzil nchaa si an is NOT n the Supes.
Anyone who would post or publish known (or guessed at) locations of Indeh ritual or burial sites would not only be an insensitive clod, but would anger some folks both red and white (myself among them) who found out about it.
Shi/ si or sh' is possessive...means "my" or "me" in Apache..depending on the dialect (Wht Mtn, Jicarilla, Mescalero, Chiricaha etc...).
One would say"shi ma"
or "sh'ma" to indicate .."my mother". I am hardly an expert and only know a few words and phrases. Athabaskan is extremely difficult for a non-native speaker to pick up, particuarly if they are not conversing with it
on a daily basis. It has taken a long while for me to just get the pronunciation down for the "thl" sound in front of "thlii" (horse) or at the end of "dzil" (mountain).
Thlii sounds almost like "klee" with a bilateral aspiration as the tongue touches the top of the palate.
Dzil sounds a bit like "deeshk".
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion
LDM,
Thanks for the generalized information you have given us. I believe you have been more then proper in your relating of this information. Since a
Chirachaua Apache is the primary source for this delicate topic, I assume
it's ok to talk about his statements, which are public record. The Forest Service probably has records of exactly where he was found.
Peter,
The question of Dzil Nchaa Si An being in the Superstitions is really unimportant for Dutch Hunters. Since it's location is a secret, we have no way of knowing if we are desecrating an Apache sacred site. We can only respect the Apache's special mountain or valley or mesa, if located in the Supes, by staying out of the mountains altogether. Hikers, and Forest Service personel would be in the same catagory.
Most of our own buriel sites are clearly marked. For an Apache to dig up my Grandfather's bones would be an obvious desecration. If a known Apache grave were to be dug up as you stated, it would be no less of a desecration. Since Apache graves are unmarked and not remembered by most Apaches (they were not known to visit their ancestors' graves or even speak or think of a dead person's name), they run the risk of being violated completely by chance. Also, the Apache have no written history of their own, so no reliable record of such sites exists. Any modern day historical writing by the Apache, would derive strickly from oral traditions, and be subject to skepticism by any serious scholar. The Apache were not well known for long term historical interest in any race, including their own.
This topic is getting a lot of views, but limited replys. What do you suppose is creating so much interest?
Thank you both for the info.
Joe
Thanks for the generalized information you have given us. I believe you have been more then proper in your relating of this information. Since a
Chirachaua Apache is the primary source for this delicate topic, I assume
it's ok to talk about his statements, which are public record. The Forest Service probably has records of exactly where he was found.
Peter,
The question of Dzil Nchaa Si An being in the Superstitions is really unimportant for Dutch Hunters. Since it's location is a secret, we have no way of knowing if we are desecrating an Apache sacred site. We can only respect the Apache's special mountain or valley or mesa, if located in the Supes, by staying out of the mountains altogether. Hikers, and Forest Service personel would be in the same catagory.
Most of our own buriel sites are clearly marked. For an Apache to dig up my Grandfather's bones would be an obvious desecration. If a known Apache grave were to be dug up as you stated, it would be no less of a desecration. Since Apache graves are unmarked and not remembered by most Apaches (they were not known to visit their ancestors' graves or even speak or think of a dead person's name), they run the risk of being violated completely by chance. Also, the Apache have no written history of their own, so no reliable record of such sites exists. Any modern day historical writing by the Apache, would derive strickly from oral traditions, and be subject to skepticism by any serious scholar. The Apache were not well known for long term historical interest in any race, including their own.
This topic is getting a lot of views, but limited replys. What do you suppose is creating so much interest?
Thank you both for the info.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dzil Nchaa Si'an
Peter and LDM,
Peter is correct when he says, "Dzil nchaa si'an is NOT in the Supes." I believe however, that the name means: Big seated mountain. It is rather notorious in Arizona. It's location is public information, available to anyone. The Indians involved are the San Carlos Apache. Peter has expressed some sensitivity to anyone naming it's exact location, so I will not do so. Since it is not in the Superstitions it is of no importance to Dutch Hunters. The Apache believe a great life-giving force exists on Dzil nchaa si'an and the mountain is sacred to them. Normally they would not disclose such a place to the white eyes, but in this case they were forced to do so because of a proposed development on the mountain. Although the Forest Service was involved, it was not the Superstition branch.
Peter,
When Geronimo was told by Yanosha, that he would kill anyone who attemped to shoot the scouts, who was the other warrior you mentioned?
It seems like they were ALL related in some manner.
LDM,
You had me going on this one. Now where were we? Oh yes, the Black Legion.
Joe
Peter is correct when he says, "Dzil nchaa si'an is NOT in the Supes." I believe however, that the name means: Big seated mountain. It is rather notorious in Arizona. It's location is public information, available to anyone. The Indians involved are the San Carlos Apache. Peter has expressed some sensitivity to anyone naming it's exact location, so I will not do so. Since it is not in the Superstitions it is of no importance to Dutch Hunters. The Apache believe a great life-giving force exists on Dzil nchaa si'an and the mountain is sacred to them. Normally they would not disclose such a place to the white eyes, but in this case they were forced to do so because of a proposed development on the mountain. Although the Forest Service was involved, it was not the Superstition branch.
Peter,
When Geronimo was told by Yanosha, that he would kill anyone who attemped to shoot the scouts, who was the other warrior you mentioned?
It seems like they were ALL related in some manner.
LDM,
You had me going on this one. Now where were we? Oh yes, the Black Legion.
Joe
Joe
For a translation of Apache place names you might want to check out
"Wisdom Sits in Places" by Keith Basso. 'The Cibecue Apache" by the same author is also helpful. Problem with translating Apache into English is there are different dialects even amongst the same bands. To a Jicarilla
Apache "dlo" means prairie dog. To a Western Apache dlo" means bird.
Some Apache use the word "Besh" to denote ANY metal tool, some dont etc etc...Bewildering to the white man..but very logical to an Apache.
You are correct in saying it seemed that "they were all related". By the mid-80s Goyathlas group was composed mainly of Bedonkohe and Chihenne Chiricahua (tho Naiche was Chokonnen). Many of them were related by blood or marriage.
The other warrior you speak of was the warrior formerly know as Fun (prounced as a cross between Fawn or Foon). He had a fearsome reputation and was known as Goyathla's bravest and finest fighting man.
Legend has this warrior turning back a charge of Mexican cavalry single-handidly..on foot.
For a translation of Apache place names you might want to check out
"Wisdom Sits in Places" by Keith Basso. 'The Cibecue Apache" by the same author is also helpful. Problem with translating Apache into English is there are different dialects even amongst the same bands. To a Jicarilla
Apache "dlo" means prairie dog. To a Western Apache dlo" means bird.
Some Apache use the word "Besh" to denote ANY metal tool, some dont etc etc...Bewildering to the white man..but very logical to an Apache.
You are correct in saying it seemed that "they were all related". By the mid-80s Goyathlas group was composed mainly of Bedonkohe and Chihenne Chiricahua (tho Naiche was Chokonnen). Many of them were related by blood or marriage.
The other warrior you speak of was the warrior formerly know as Fun (prounced as a cross between Fawn or Foon). He had a fearsome reputation and was known as Goyathla's bravest and finest fighting man.
Legend has this warrior turning back a charge of Mexican cavalry single-handidly..on foot.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Forest
LDM and Peter,
It's true, I assumed we were talking about the Superstitions. A mistake I will not make again. You two obviously have a wide range of knowledge. It would not be prudent to underestimate your comments again, or I might indeed be lost in the forest. The point of Dzil nchaa was not missed completely, as you both outlined it's importance to the Apache rather well. It's importance as an impediment in the search for the LDM was the focus for me.
Peter,
I assumed you were talking about Yahe-chul (Fun) in your previous post. Even though Naiche was actually Chief, Fun was second in command to Geronimo. Interesting battle, Goyathla's life was both saved and threatened during this event. It would appear he showed both bravery and cowardice before it was over. I own and have read, many books on the Apache and "Wisdom Sits In Places" by Basso is one on my bookshelf.
Thanks to you both for helping to stave off the encroaching dementia.
Joe
It's true, I assumed we were talking about the Superstitions. A mistake I will not make again. You two obviously have a wide range of knowledge. It would not be prudent to underestimate your comments again, or I might indeed be lost in the forest. The point of Dzil nchaa was not missed completely, as you both outlined it's importance to the Apache rather well. It's importance as an impediment in the search for the LDM was the focus for me.
Peter,
I assumed you were talking about Yahe-chul (Fun) in your previous post. Even though Naiche was actually Chief, Fun was second in command to Geronimo. Interesting battle, Goyathla's life was both saved and threatened during this event. It would appear he showed both bravery and cowardice before it was over. I own and have read, many books on the Apache and "Wisdom Sits In Places" by Basso is one on my bookshelf.
Thanks to you both for helping to stave off the encroaching dementia.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Fun
Peter,
I was using Apache Voices, by Eve Ball as a reference. In her book she say's Fun was next in command to Geronimo at the surrender. She had pretty good sources, so I don't mind quoting her. Others may disagree with her narrative. Writers of this era, tend to have disparate views of the same events. Spelling is also variable. Many writers of the time, use Mangas and Mangus (son of Mangas) in error.
Thanks for your reply.
Joe
P.S.
Geronimo's brother in law, Perrico as well as the warrior Tsisnah were with him when he surrendered to Miles. I am unsure if Cayetano or Noche were there. Most writers don't give more then a few of the names of the sixteen warriors left in the band. I don't know of any warrior with him at Skeleton Canyon, who would have been a more effective leader. Of course legend has it that Victorio's sister Lozen, who was said to ride with and fight alongside the warriors, was also with the final band and was revered by the Chiricahua. As for a trusted Lt., the most famous would have been Ma-si, but he was not with them when they surrendered to Miles. I give.
I was using Apache Voices, by Eve Ball as a reference. In her book she say's Fun was next in command to Geronimo at the surrender. She had pretty good sources, so I don't mind quoting her. Others may disagree with her narrative. Writers of this era, tend to have disparate views of the same events. Spelling is also variable. Many writers of the time, use Mangas and Mangus (son of Mangas) in error.
Thanks for your reply.
Joe
P.S.
Geronimo's brother in law, Perrico as well as the warrior Tsisnah were with him when he surrendered to Miles. I am unsure if Cayetano or Noche were there. Most writers don't give more then a few of the names of the sixteen warriors left in the band. I don't know of any warrior with him at Skeleton Canyon, who would have been a more effective leader. Of course legend has it that Victorio's sister Lozen, who was said to ride with and fight alongside the warriors, was also with the final band and was revered by the Chiricahua.
As for a trusted Lt., the most famous would have been Ma-si, but he was not with them when they surrendered to Miles. I give.Re: Dzil Nchaa Si'an
[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]
Peter,
When Geronimo was told by Yanosha, that he would kill anyone who attemped to shoot the scouts, who was the other warrior you mentioned?
It seems like they were ALL related in some manner.
[/quote]
Hi...I'm not Peter but I think I can help here....even though he has already answered. The other warrior was in fact Fun and this incident was the SECOND time I know of where the pair threatened to shoot Geronimo for giving a disagreeable order. The other incident was when the Broncos came up from Mexico and raided San Carlos, forcing Loco and his people and the other Apaches there to accompany them back down into Mexico....forcibly recruiting re-enforcements so to speak....anyway, pursued by US troops they managed to cross the border and ran smack into a Mexican Army which turned into a bit of a slaughter of the Apaches. Geronimo at one point suggested that if the women and children were abandoned the warriors could escape. Fun, who had been fighting like a man possessed that day (the event Peter mentioned at the bottom of his post at the top of the page) and he threatened to shoot Geronimo if he dared repeat that suggestion and Yanosha backed him up. Geronimo backed down.
Fun later went into the Florida captivity with Geronimo, and the subsequent re-locations. He even joined the Army. He ended up killing himself after shooting his wife and thinking she was dead. She lived...he'd only shot her in the leg.
.
Peter,
When Geronimo was told by Yanosha, that he would kill anyone who attemped to shoot the scouts, who was the other warrior you mentioned?
It seems like they were ALL related in some manner.
[/quote]
Hi...I'm not Peter but I think I can help here....even though he has already answered. The other warrior was in fact Fun and this incident was the SECOND time I know of where the pair threatened to shoot Geronimo for giving a disagreeable order. The other incident was when the Broncos came up from Mexico and raided San Carlos, forcing Loco and his people and the other Apaches there to accompany them back down into Mexico....forcibly recruiting re-enforcements so to speak....anyway, pursued by US troops they managed to cross the border and ran smack into a Mexican Army which turned into a bit of a slaughter of the Apaches. Geronimo at one point suggested that if the women and children were abandoned the warriors could escape. Fun, who had been fighting like a man possessed that day (the event Peter mentioned at the bottom of his post at the top of the page) and he threatened to shoot Geronimo if he dared repeat that suggestion and Yanosha backed him up. Geronimo backed down.
Fun later went into the Florida captivity with Geronimo, and the subsequent re-locations. He even joined the Army. He ended up killing himself after shooting his wife and thinking she was dead. She lived...he'd only shot her in the leg.
.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Welcome
Lucas,
I am sure that LDM and Peter meant no slight by not saying "howdy". Let me be the first to welcome you to the LDM Forum. It will be nice to have another student of Apache History, but not everyone will appreciate it.
You need to go back and reread Peter's last post on this subject. He did not identify the "other warrior". It seems like a small thing to do, but Peter likes his little mysteries. As far as I know, he is the authority on Apache history here.
The rest of your post seems accurate, as best as I can remember.
Your "post subject" remains a mystery to us all. Perhaps Peter will also explain his "bite" comment to everyone.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I am sure that LDM and Peter meant no slight by not saying "howdy". Let me be the first to welcome you to the LDM Forum. It will be nice to have another student of Apache History, but not everyone will appreciate it.
You need to go back and reread Peter's last post on this subject. He did not identify the "other warrior". It seems like a small thing to do, but Peter likes his little mysteries. As far as I know, he is the authority on Apache history here.
The rest of your post seems accurate, as best as I can remember.
Your "post subject" remains a mystery to us all. Perhaps Peter will also explain his "bite" comment to everyone.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
A few things I wanted to comment on as I follow this and the moderated posting. One is Joe mentioned " Large Apache". I dont know many midget Apaches, My good friend Jack is 6'5 and around 280 pounds solid. I saw him pick up a buddy at 250 pounds and jokingly toss him into the back of a semi trailer without moving his feet. Jack had a round mark below his eye where some cowboys had held a shotgun to keep him down during a fight. Maybe Jack isn't typical, but they do grow them large on the reservation.
I asked Jack and a few other friends about this discussion from 2 different viewpoints. One was whether they knew anything about a Black Legion. They were unaminous on having no idea what I was talking about. Even after giving a brief description, no one had a clue. I believe them.
The 2nd round was concerning a couple of spots in rim country. One was a cult group I had run into. I was told to steer clear of them, they were more than a little nutty, but generally harmless. The other was a place I ran into accidentally. Each in turn told me to forget about it and that I was to avoid that place. One friend told me that we are not welcomed there. When he saw I took offense to the remark, he touched his chest and then mine and said again, We are not welcomed there. In both cases they knew what I was directly talking about.
Afterwards I asked each in turn about whether a group could operate in secrecy in the way the Black Legion supposedly does. They all agreed that this isn't 100 years ago and that politics and such things have changed the way things are done. None of them knew of any such group operating around the Superstitions, but also a few said they would not inquire about such things. Some had family on reservations and didn't want to stir up trouble. I also mentioned the camp out and one guy was interested until he realized he had other commitments. This guy can tell a ghost story that will keep you looking over your shoulder.
All this leads me to believe that general knowledge of certain things still is circulated concerning certain areas. Could the Black Legion exist in some form? I have to change my thought now and say there could be something, though not quite what we probably are guessing at. One problem is I dont know the right question to ask, to get the answers I may be looking for. One last thing that should put a smile on Joes face. One buddy when I asked about this the 2nd time said " Ghosts and men in black, you sound like my grandma". That was intriguing enough to bring up another time over a few rounds of beers.
It doesn't add much to the discussion, but rather than put the question to the past, it should be put through the eyes of the modern Native American. We are talking extreme changes within 2-3 generations of a culture and its mindset towards the society it dwells within. It seems this is a more modern organization, if it exists. Its original purpose a generation or 2 ago may have no impact on its current operation or ideals.
I asked Jack and a few other friends about this discussion from 2 different viewpoints. One was whether they knew anything about a Black Legion. They were unaminous on having no idea what I was talking about. Even after giving a brief description, no one had a clue. I believe them.
The 2nd round was concerning a couple of spots in rim country. One was a cult group I had run into. I was told to steer clear of them, they were more than a little nutty, but generally harmless. The other was a place I ran into accidentally. Each in turn told me to forget about it and that I was to avoid that place. One friend told me that we are not welcomed there. When he saw I took offense to the remark, he touched his chest and then mine and said again, We are not welcomed there. In both cases they knew what I was directly talking about.
Afterwards I asked each in turn about whether a group could operate in secrecy in the way the Black Legion supposedly does. They all agreed that this isn't 100 years ago and that politics and such things have changed the way things are done. None of them knew of any such group operating around the Superstitions, but also a few said they would not inquire about such things. Some had family on reservations and didn't want to stir up trouble. I also mentioned the camp out and one guy was interested until he realized he had other commitments. This guy can tell a ghost story that will keep you looking over your shoulder.
All this leads me to believe that general knowledge of certain things still is circulated concerning certain areas. Could the Black Legion exist in some form? I have to change my thought now and say there could be something, though not quite what we probably are guessing at. One problem is I dont know the right question to ask, to get the answers I may be looking for. One last thing that should put a smile on Joes face. One buddy when I asked about this the 2nd time said " Ghosts and men in black, you sound like my grandma". That was intriguing enough to bring up another time over a few rounds of beers.
It doesn't add much to the discussion, but rather than put the question to the past, it should be put through the eyes of the modern Native American. We are talking extreme changes within 2-3 generations of a culture and its mindset towards the society it dwells within. It seems this is a more modern organization, if it exists. Its original purpose a generation or 2 ago may have no impact on its current operation or ideals.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Death Of A Warrior
Zentull and LDM,
Talk about informative! Those were some great "Apache" posts.
Peter is correct, if he is saying that suicide among the Apache was rare, but it did happen.
We don't have to rely on First Lt. Witherspoon's report for our only account of the death of "Fun". Martine gave this account: "He knew the Apaches would approve but wanted to escape the terrible death and mutilation of hanging....So Fun used his rifle as his means of escaping. He took off his shoes, leaned against a tree and placed the barrel against his head. Unable to reach the trigger with his fingers, he pulled it with his toes." (Apache Voices by, Eve Ball) That seems a bit too detailed to be something the soldiers staged.
It was not something that would be considered that unusual, considering the circumstances. There were a number of good reasons for commiting suicide among the Apache.
Although a bit later in time, 1898, Ales Hrdlicka started extensive research among the Indians of the Southwest, including Northern Mexico. Even at that late date suicide was rare among the Apache. The one exception, considering the diminished numbers, was the White Mountain Apache. They averaged one or more sucides per year.
Respectfully,
Joe
Talk about informative! Those were some great "Apache" posts.
Peter is correct, if he is saying that suicide among the Apache was rare, but it did happen.
We don't have to rely on First Lt. Witherspoon's report for our only account of the death of "Fun". Martine gave this account: "He knew the Apaches would approve but wanted to escape the terrible death and mutilation of hanging....So Fun used his rifle as his means of escaping. He took off his shoes, leaned against a tree and placed the barrel against his head. Unable to reach the trigger with his fingers, he pulled it with his toes." (Apache Voices by, Eve Ball) That seems a bit too detailed to be something the soldiers staged.
It was not something that would be considered that unusual, considering the circumstances. There were a number of good reasons for commiting suicide among the Apache.
Although a bit later in time, 1898, Ales Hrdlicka started extensive research among the Indians of the Southwest, including Northern Mexico. Even at that late date suicide was rare among the Apache. The one exception, considering the diminished numbers, was the White Mountain Apache. They averaged one or more sucides per year.
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Black legion
WELL ALL; After all the spills, I have to say that if something or small group does exist guarding an area; They are probley a family or small clan group. If they were of any size or known quanity then they would be talked about and known of. We all know how it is impossible to keep something like this silent. They could be a small shaman group too! Pete is right there are many sacred sites but they are usually high up and hard to get too. I do not know of the apache having any one grave yard so to speak, I think each member had his sacred or power site that he went to to commune with his spirits. HELL there are probley indians buried all over the sup,s for that matter. I really can,t see them guarding one site unless there was something like med,s and herds that they use in their traditional med,s and ceremonies. While I collect indian artifacts I get mine from plowed fields and streams and the like. I would never take any from a burial site and if I seen that I had did so I would take it back. I think all respectble collecters would do the same. We would help to preserve the site like it was our own. I enjoyed ya,lls post ....bill 
PETE & JOE see how much better we do when we do not get mad and fuss???
PETE & JOE see how much better we do when we do not get mad and fuss???Re: Question.
Actually nothing to do with the post subject (I never noticed it to be honest)... I was googling different Apache warriors as it is a keen interest of mine and has been for years.....when I googled Fun I ended up here (in this thread in fact) and was reading some of the posts. The whole Black legion thing is new to me...so I kept reading. Anyway I saw the question about who the other warrior was that backed up Yanosha when Geronimo wanted to shoot the scouts so I threw in the answer and a couple tid-bits that might prove interesting concerning the two.LDM wrote:Lucas,
Just a question about something I'm not sure of. Enjoyed your post but what does it have to do with your Post subject, Dzil Nchaa Si'an ?
Is there a connection somehow ?
As for Fun's suicide...yeah it does seem out of charactor for an Apache but apparently that is what happened all the same. Can't recall if I read it in Debo's, Ball's or Thrapp's books or some other....but it is out there to be found...and there is precious little info to be found on Fun to begin with so it's fairly easy to remember the gist of what I did manage to find. Now....Fun may have been drunk (that I also can't recall) but he had a fight with the wife....shot her, thought he'd killed her, was over-come with remorse and killed himself. She survived. That stood out to me because at that point of researching Apaches Fun kinda stood out to me....especially the way he and Yanosha would stand up to Geronimo.
I've currently re-read both of Edwin R. Sweeney's books on Cochise and Mangas Coloradas. Great research. Those books also put another notable but fairly obscure Apache into my realm of interest...one of Cochise's mentors.....Miguel Narbona and he was the reason I started googling in the first place.
Anyway....love Apache discussions so hope to indulge again sometime.
.
Oh.....although I'm sure many here are already aware of it.....a great photo of both Fun and Yanosha is the fairly famous photo of Geronimo and three warriors standing four abreast in the desert holding rifles.....Geronimo on the far right, Fun second from right, Chappo (Geronimo's son), and Yanosha on the far left. Like I said.... this is likely common knowledge but thought I'd throw it in there.
Recently bought a T-shirt at a Pow-wow with that picture on it and the text..."Homeland Security....Fighting terrorism since 1492." Mostly bought it for the picture.
.
Recently bought a T-shirt at a Pow-wow with that picture on it and the text..."Homeland Security....Fighting terrorism since 1492." Mostly bought it for the picture.
.
Black legion
Fun should have just settled for beating her with a healthy stick instead! I guess you could say she got her spite to the last! HUH? Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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A Stick In Time
Bill,
That's a pretty good observation. A good beating is actually the first option that was available to Fun.
The leaders would have tried to calm him down, but the final decision would have been his. Mutilation or death would also have been acceptable to the tribe. The man involved could be killed as well.
The Apache took their "fun" seriously.
Respectfully,
Joe
That's a pretty good observation. A good beating is actually the first option that was available to Fun.
The leaders would have tried to calm him down, but the final decision would have been his. Mutilation or death would also have been acceptable to the tribe. The man involved could be killed as well.
The Apache took their "fun" seriously.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Freed Warriors
LDM,
You said:
"When freedom finally came to the Apache at Fort Sill none of the living warriors were allowed to leave, only their families and those who did not fight were allowed to go. After the freedom came it is said that some of the warriors remains who had been hidden, secretly made it back to their homeland and places of spirit power, taken there by family members and friends of the old warriors."
I am not sure what your source is for that information, but I believe it is in error.
The law, releasing the Apache, "was passed by Congress August 24, 1912". I don't believe there was any provision for keeping the surviving Apache warriors captive.
The following is from "Geronimo" by, Angie Debo:
"The personal property of the Mescalero party-horses, mules, wheeled vehicles, household goods-was shipped to the reservation. They themselves were taken there on a special train under the escort of an army officer, arriving on April 4, 1913. Among them was Geronimo's widow with her young grandnephew, Paul Guydelkon, and his father.
All the surviving warriors of the last holdout band that surrendered to Miles were in the party with their familes. There were Naiche, his wife, Ha-o-zinne, and five of his children......Geronimo's "brother" Perico also went there with his stolen wife....." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
I believe there are other sources for this information, but Angie Debo was the first that came to hand.
Respectfully,
Joe
You said:
"When freedom finally came to the Apache at Fort Sill none of the living warriors were allowed to leave, only their families and those who did not fight were allowed to go. After the freedom came it is said that some of the warriors remains who had been hidden, secretly made it back to their homeland and places of spirit power, taken there by family members and friends of the old warriors."
I am not sure what your source is for that information, but I believe it is in error.
The law, releasing the Apache, "was passed by Congress August 24, 1912". I don't believe there was any provision for keeping the surviving Apache warriors captive.
The following is from "Geronimo" by, Angie Debo:
"The personal property of the Mescalero party-horses, mules, wheeled vehicles, household goods-was shipped to the reservation. They themselves were taken there on a special train under the escort of an army officer, arriving on April 4, 1913. Among them was Geronimo's widow with her young grandnephew, Paul Guydelkon, and his father.
All the surviving warriors of the last holdout band that surrendered to Miles were in the party with their familes. There were Naiche, his wife, Ha-o-zinne, and five of his children......Geronimo's "brother" Perico also went there with his stolen wife....." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
I believe there are other sources for this information, but Angie Debo was the first that came to hand.
Respectfully,
Joe