I like to get out in the hills and look around a bit and recently
ran across some flat rocks that look like they may be maps of
sorts.
Some lines, crosses and hearts on them.
Did a search and ran across your forum and it seems that the Lost Dutchman may have also had some 'stone maps'
associated with it.
I am a little familiar with the ldm story and will read this forum for more
particulars, but was wondering if someone could give me a basic
background on the ldm stone maps.
Where were they found-are there any pictures of them available-are
they real or fakes-is there like 1 'Master' Map and a whole bunch
of 'Baby' maps???
Has anyone heard of any other rock maps being found anyplace?
Are there sometimes old carvings on trees or drill holes in
rocks associated with them?
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Randy-New Mexico.
Rock Maps Found
Randy,
Hi. I assume the rocks that might be maps were found in New Mexico. Rock maps are an interesting topic. Perhaps you did find something that was intended as a map. However, one should aways keep an open mind. Such things might not necessarily be treasure maps. They could be showing a source of water. Where someone's ranch was. Where a telegrapgh line was to go, etc. It is hard to say how old they might be. They could be someone's idea of a "hoax" and be fairly recent in origin - or could be old enough to be from the 1800s or earlier and might actually indicate something.
I suppose rock maps are as valid as anything else in the world of mines and treasure. Maps were made on cowhide, parchments, wood - you name it. There are books on treasure signs and markings. Some include how maps are put together. Good points of reference are the books of Charles Kenworthy. His books are easy to find from many sources. I do not necessarily agree with a lot of what he writes about, never the less his works are entertaining.
The thing is, I would think that a map - even on rock - would be something someone could carry. I just cannot see - nor have I heard of any cases - where stationary maps were made. There were trail markers and stuff like that. But not maps left carved into a cliff or something. Even in all of Kenworthy's books there are no references or indications the Spanish or Mexicans ever did that.
That bring us to the so called Master Map. I think most would agree that the Master Map is nothing more than an Indian petroglyph. However, there are those that think otherwise.
I personally have not heard of any rock maps like the Master Map anywhere else. But, that is not to say that there aren't any. There very well might be one. But, I still think someone would make something one could carry.
The stone maps associated with the LDM are often called the Peralta Stones Maps. If you did a web search using that terminology I am sure you would get several hits. I have stumbled across several that discuss the history and interpretation of the maps. This could provide you with some basic info. There are also many books specifically on the stone maps. Check out Doug Stewart's web site on LDM books. There you will find info on many books about the LDM and the stone maps.
His site is: http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/dutch.shtml
Many of the books Doug lists are still available. His site can guide you as to what you might want to try to buy so you read more on the topic. Doug does not sell books. He only provides a reference as to the books that have been written. You'd have to find the books elsewhere like Amazon.com or something.
Treasure markers take many forms. You asked about carvings on trees. I suppose there could be such things seeing how markers took many forms. Also, drill holes seem to be present on the Peralta Stone Maps. However, do they apply to other maps - to to other stone maps? I do not know.
For what it worth, what you stumbled on in New Mexico is probably a whole lot more interesting and relevant than the Peralta Stone Maps.
My personal opinion of the stone maps is that they are fakes. Others have different opinions.
My opinion is based on the horse-witch stone. I swear that when I was a kid I saw that same horse in a coloring book. A boy named "Bobby" or something was handing the horse a carrot and the caption said "Bobby feeds the horse." The coloring book was something like "Animals on the Farm." I saw the coloring book in a bunch of stuff an aunt had in her garage. The stuff had belonged to an older cousin. The coloring book dated from the 1930s - when my cousin was a kid. It very well could have been the "model" for the horse on the stone. If so, that means the stone is questionable. One of my pet projects is combing through ebay auctions periodically looking for similarly titled "antique" coloring books being sold. Believe it or not, there are many auctioned off from time to time. So far, I have not found what I seek. But, I keep trying. I encourage others to keep their eyes open. Because I am sure that coloring book will turn up one day. Again, others feel differently and put much significance upon the stone maps. I personally cannot.
S.C.
Hi. I assume the rocks that might be maps were found in New Mexico. Rock maps are an interesting topic. Perhaps you did find something that was intended as a map. However, one should aways keep an open mind. Such things might not necessarily be treasure maps. They could be showing a source of water. Where someone's ranch was. Where a telegrapgh line was to go, etc. It is hard to say how old they might be. They could be someone's idea of a "hoax" and be fairly recent in origin - or could be old enough to be from the 1800s or earlier and might actually indicate something.
I suppose rock maps are as valid as anything else in the world of mines and treasure. Maps were made on cowhide, parchments, wood - you name it. There are books on treasure signs and markings. Some include how maps are put together. Good points of reference are the books of Charles Kenworthy. His books are easy to find from many sources. I do not necessarily agree with a lot of what he writes about, never the less his works are entertaining.
The thing is, I would think that a map - even on rock - would be something someone could carry. I just cannot see - nor have I heard of any cases - where stationary maps were made. There were trail markers and stuff like that. But not maps left carved into a cliff or something. Even in all of Kenworthy's books there are no references or indications the Spanish or Mexicans ever did that.
That bring us to the so called Master Map. I think most would agree that the Master Map is nothing more than an Indian petroglyph. However, there are those that think otherwise.
I personally have not heard of any rock maps like the Master Map anywhere else. But, that is not to say that there aren't any. There very well might be one. But, I still think someone would make something one could carry.
The stone maps associated with the LDM are often called the Peralta Stones Maps. If you did a web search using that terminology I am sure you would get several hits. I have stumbled across several that discuss the history and interpretation of the maps. This could provide you with some basic info. There are also many books specifically on the stone maps. Check out Doug Stewart's web site on LDM books. There you will find info on many books about the LDM and the stone maps.
His site is: http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/dutch.shtml
Many of the books Doug lists are still available. His site can guide you as to what you might want to try to buy so you read more on the topic. Doug does not sell books. He only provides a reference as to the books that have been written. You'd have to find the books elsewhere like Amazon.com or something.
Treasure markers take many forms. You asked about carvings on trees. I suppose there could be such things seeing how markers took many forms. Also, drill holes seem to be present on the Peralta Stone Maps. However, do they apply to other maps - to to other stone maps? I do not know.
For what it worth, what you stumbled on in New Mexico is probably a whole lot more interesting and relevant than the Peralta Stone Maps.
My personal opinion of the stone maps is that they are fakes. Others have different opinions.
My opinion is based on the horse-witch stone. I swear that when I was a kid I saw that same horse in a coloring book. A boy named "Bobby" or something was handing the horse a carrot and the caption said "Bobby feeds the horse." The coloring book was something like "Animals on the Farm." I saw the coloring book in a bunch of stuff an aunt had in her garage. The stuff had belonged to an older cousin. The coloring book dated from the 1930s - when my cousin was a kid. It very well could have been the "model" for the horse on the stone. If so, that means the stone is questionable. One of my pet projects is combing through ebay auctions periodically looking for similarly titled "antique" coloring books being sold. Believe it or not, there are many auctioned off from time to time. So far, I have not found what I seek. But, I keep trying. I encourage others to keep their eyes open. Because I am sure that coloring book will turn up one day. Again, others feel differently and put much significance upon the stone maps. I personally cannot.
S.C.
Master Map
Wow!
Lots of areas for me to pursue some research into these things.
Thanks!
They were found in NM in the Burro Mountains South of Silver City.
I found some pictures of the Peralta Maps, but mine are not so good-
Mainly lines, crosses, a heart, numbers and symbols-nothing like the Witch or the Horse on them.
-Though on one smaller map it does look like some of the lines match pretty close to the one called the heart map (but without the heart on it).
interestng, huh? and this is over here in NM!!!
Small enough to be carried.
By a Master map I meant that it is a larger flat rock, about
2' X 2', but it is a duplicate of each of the 8 smaller ones I found,
but all in one piece. (what I mean is that if I place each of
the 8 smaller ones on top of the large master rock, the markings
match up between the large and small ones)
It was like the smaller ones were meant to be carried and the larger
one to remain in place???
I actually found them by following the carvings on the trees; very old
carvings and overgrown, but still visible. Even 1 of the trees had fallen
over, but I was able to continue in the direction indicated to find
the next one.
By looking at the tree rings my guess is that the carvings are around 150-175 years old, but it's kind of hard to tell.
Various carvings-a picture of a hand with finger outstretched, an arrow,
a large E, which I took for East? a circle with a dot in the middle and
a wavy end which I followed and I think a tortoise with one long foot.
I'll see if I can find that Kingworthy book and see what he has to
say about some of the symbols and such.
Led me right to the steep ledge where I found them and the drill
holes.
The ledge is very high up and overlooks the country all around,
but dead-ends right where the maps were. You can stand upright
on the edge of the ledge, but the maps were back in under a small crevice/overhang.
I discovered what I call the Master Map first (really thought I had found some sort of Spanish treasure or something) and on my next trip
out I found the smaller ones buried around its circumference.
Nothing else at all, as far as I can tell; nothing on the surrounding
rocks or buried-even took a metal detector my next trip, but
didn't find anything, though it was pretty hard to work in that
tight area.
The only other thing was 3 drill holes, right on the edge of the
ledge-and they only go down about 4 inches. I don't think
anyone would ever blast up there, so maybe just messing
around or maybe for another purpose???
Now after reading a few of the posts on this forum, it seems
like maybe I should be a little more secretive and such, but
I really don't know too much about the maps or this field. (yet)
When I get a chance, I'll post a few of the symbols and such
that are on the maps on a webpage for all to view, but I don't
think I'll put it all up just yet, until I know a little bit more
about all of this.
If you do want to view 1 of the maps, take a look at what they
call the Heart map on the main page of this site, because
they are virtually identical, except leave out the heart and
the knife and mine looks a little bigger with a few more lines.
Mine also has the letters QRQ on it where what looks
like an arrow is pointing (but my arrow points to the
letters instead of the dot as shown on the map on this site).
Just as an afterthought, the next time I go back out I will
try and match up some of the landscape looking off of the ledge
to one of the maps-long shot, but worth a try.
Thanks for all of the info and if anyone else has any more ideas,
feel free to contribute.
It would be pretty hard to find anything at all with what I have,
and I'm really not positive they are even maps, but it's my best
guess. Now if I can match them up to maybe a topographic map
or satelite/areial photo then maybe/or even interpret the
symbols a little bit???
Randy-NM
Lots of areas for me to pursue some research into these things.
Thanks!
They were found in NM in the Burro Mountains South of Silver City.
I found some pictures of the Peralta Maps, but mine are not so good-
Mainly lines, crosses, a heart, numbers and symbols-nothing like the Witch or the Horse on them.
-Though on one smaller map it does look like some of the lines match pretty close to the one called the heart map (but without the heart on it).
interestng, huh? and this is over here in NM!!!
Small enough to be carried.
By a Master map I meant that it is a larger flat rock, about
2' X 2', but it is a duplicate of each of the 8 smaller ones I found,
but all in one piece. (what I mean is that if I place each of
the 8 smaller ones on top of the large master rock, the markings
match up between the large and small ones)
It was like the smaller ones were meant to be carried and the larger
one to remain in place???
I actually found them by following the carvings on the trees; very old
carvings and overgrown, but still visible. Even 1 of the trees had fallen
over, but I was able to continue in the direction indicated to find
the next one.
By looking at the tree rings my guess is that the carvings are around 150-175 years old, but it's kind of hard to tell.
Various carvings-a picture of a hand with finger outstretched, an arrow,
a large E, which I took for East? a circle with a dot in the middle and
a wavy end which I followed and I think a tortoise with one long foot.
I'll see if I can find that Kingworthy book and see what he has to
say about some of the symbols and such.
Led me right to the steep ledge where I found them and the drill
holes.
The ledge is very high up and overlooks the country all around,
but dead-ends right where the maps were. You can stand upright
on the edge of the ledge, but the maps were back in under a small crevice/overhang.
I discovered what I call the Master Map first (really thought I had found some sort of Spanish treasure or something) and on my next trip
out I found the smaller ones buried around its circumference.
Nothing else at all, as far as I can tell; nothing on the surrounding
rocks or buried-even took a metal detector my next trip, but
didn't find anything, though it was pretty hard to work in that
tight area.
The only other thing was 3 drill holes, right on the edge of the
ledge-and they only go down about 4 inches. I don't think
anyone would ever blast up there, so maybe just messing
around or maybe for another purpose???
Now after reading a few of the posts on this forum, it seems
like maybe I should be a little more secretive and such, but
I really don't know too much about the maps or this field. (yet)
When I get a chance, I'll post a few of the symbols and such
that are on the maps on a webpage for all to view, but I don't
think I'll put it all up just yet, until I know a little bit more
about all of this.
If you do want to view 1 of the maps, take a look at what they
call the Heart map on the main page of this site, because
they are virtually identical, except leave out the heart and
the knife and mine looks a little bigger with a few more lines.
Mine also has the letters QRQ on it where what looks
like an arrow is pointing (but my arrow points to the
letters instead of the dot as shown on the map on this site).
Just as an afterthought, the next time I go back out I will
try and match up some of the landscape looking off of the ledge
to one of the maps-long shot, but worth a try.
Thanks for all of the info and if anyone else has any more ideas,
feel free to contribute.
It would be pretty hard to find anything at all with what I have,
and I'm really not positive they are even maps, but it's my best
guess. Now if I can match them up to maybe a topographic map
or satelite/areial photo then maybe/or even interpret the
symbols a little bit???
Randy-NM
Randy,
I suspect you may be about to head down a long and frustrating road. Read some of the literature about the Peralta Stone Maps, and see what happened to some folks that got obsessed with them.
Take lots of good pictures of them from every angle. Someone reading this may figure out who you are and decide to relieve you of them. Don't tell a lot of people about them - some crazy might overhear.
These maps could turn into a fun and exciting hobby, a life-ruining obsession, nothing at all, or anything in between. But it sounds like you've found something very interesting.
Good luck!
I suspect you may be about to head down a long and frustrating road. Read some of the literature about the Peralta Stone Maps, and see what happened to some folks that got obsessed with them.
Take lots of good pictures of them from every angle. Someone reading this may figure out who you are and decide to relieve you of them. Don't tell a lot of people about them - some crazy might overhear.
These maps could turn into a fun and exciting hobby, a life-ruining obsession, nothing at all, or anything in between. But it sounds like you've found something very interesting.
Good luck!
-
RU Kidding
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2002 5:01 pm
4570
Might the "QRQ" actually be "ORO"??