El Sombrero

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chief,

Don't believe I "discount Bicknell's version."

Jesse,

Good to see you back on the Forum. I noticed you "lurking around" earlier.

The reality of what happened after the treaty, has little to do with the language of the document. Like every other non-anglo of the era, the Mexicans had a long hard fight to make us live up to our promises.

You are correct, of course, that there is a great deal of documentation of abuse. The original replies to Chief's statements, correctly, stand. The challanges that the Mexicans faced in this country were no more severe than any number of other races.

The biggest problem was the fact that they were Catholic. This was basically a Protestant country, with little tolerance for Spanish speaking Catholics.

Before you write your "term paper", a good source would be, "Foreigners in Their Native Land: Historical Roots of the Mexican Americans" by, David Weber. As you noted, there are probably a thousand other sources.

"And remember, the Peraltas, if they were actually in the Superstitions as legend has it, were in no mans land of Apacheria."

Yes......I see no immediate change for the Peraltas, other than a lot more pressure on the Apaches, and a lot fewer of them.

The end of the 19th. Century and the beginning of the twentieth brought large changes for the Mexican-Americans. In the overall picture of the struggle for civil rights in this country, a relatively short time.

The Southwest was a hard, mean place, filled with hard, mean people.
Everyone "attacked" everyone. Lots of documentation for that, as well.

California, as always, is a case of it's own.

In the following quote, you can interchange "Indian" with Mexican-American, without diluting the message.

"Before we can set out on the road to success, we have to know where we are going, and before we can know that we must determing where we have been in the past. It seems a basic requirement to study the history of our Indian people. America has much to learn about the heritage of our American Indians. Only through this study can we as a nation do what must be done if our treatment of the American Indian is not to be marked down for all time as a national disgrace."

A great American wrote those words....anyone know who? No fair searching the internet......

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

My parents were down in Cuba vacationing. My Dad has some great film footage of Russian ships unloading through the harbor just before leaving. Of course when he got home he found out they were not supposed to be there. He got out on the last flight, escorted by some soldiers. He told me it was a great trip cause everyone got scared and left, so my parents and 2 other couples took advantage of the situation. It is funny film because the soldiers would not allow them to film their faces so they turn their backs, but actually filmed my parents several times using their camera. My Dad said he felt safe the last few days because he had a military escort everywhere he went.

The quotes by the same guy who said those ships were not there unloading.........

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Joe,

Lurking like a Great White! Ha! Just making sure your on board Joe.

Thanks for the book. Just bought it on the net.

It is a fact that Indian and Mexican-American or Hispanic can be interchanged in that quote and with many other things. That discussion would get very involved. I don't know who wrote it, but I would guess that you will not keep us in suspense.

Jesse

[Chief Oshkosh]

Mr zentull,

Sounds like your parents lived a real life version of Hitchcock's "Topaz." What a great movie. I haven't thought about that flick in years. Now I have to go out and try to rent it somewhere.

P.S. Watch out for seagulls that carry away your sandwich!!!

[Joe Ribaudo]

Jesse,

I have a well worn copy of: "The American Heritage Book of Indians".

John F. Kennedy wrote the forward. They are his words.

Say hello to the family.

Take care,

Joe

[Chief Oshkosh]

Chief,

Don't believe I "discount Bicknell's version."

Mr. Joe

That's interesting. While it is true that you said nothing about Bicknell's version, the text of the treaty that you posted seems quite explicit about Mexicans being able to retain any claims they had on the land prior to the signing of the treaty. I would assume that if the Peraltas had a valid claim to a mine as rich as the Lost Dutchman is purported to be and they had extracted considerable wealth from it already then they would be able to check with some Mexican official or other to determine if the treaty invalidated their claim or not. At least if I was Peralta I'd sure do that before I arbitrarily assumed the claim was no longer valid and then decide to sell the secret to an itenerant "Dutchman" for a "trifle." At least I believe that's the Bicknell version...

[zentull]

Had an Arizona history teacher who was a big time JFK fan. I did an Essay called "The peyote religion of the Dineh".She liked the essay I guess and she had me do a report on that book next. Got a copy of it still on the bookshelf. Still got that essay too.

Joe, I wouldn't have thought that book would cross my mind, but soon as I read the first words of the quote I remembered it. It was by Ann something or another..........everyones asleep and I can't get to it right now.

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Joe,

Sounds good.

I would say hello to the family but they are on vacation.

Some of us have to work. Not very hard during this time of year, nevertheless...

Hope all is well,

Jesse

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

You have "The American Indian" Young readers' edition of THE AMERICAN HERITAGE BOOK OF INDIANS by William Brandon. Same JFK introduction, but the Young readers' edition is adapted by, ANNE TERRY WHITE.

Somehow, I ended up with the adult's book. Go figure.... Book's in great shape, near fine, but the cover has seen better days. I also have THE INDIAN WARS, from the same publishers, but written by, Robert Utley and Wilcomb Washburn.

Want to sell your Anne White book?

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chief,

"I could be wrong but I have always thought the Mexicans and Indians were in Arizona before the anglos. If they called the peak "El Sombrero" and they were there first then wouldn't their use of the term predate the arrival of the anglos? At least that's what I thought. Hence my white eyes comment."

Your statement is true, but we have no idea when the Mexicans or the Indians first called Weaver's Needle La or El Sombrero. I doubt either of them ever called it "Sombrero Butte".

Bicknell, like many newsmen of the day, was prone to flower-up his story to increase reader interest. In this case, it worked well beyond his expectations, I imagine.

At the same time, he was interested in finding the mine himself, so I doubt he told the entire truth. It also seems likely that he tried to cast some doubt on the intelligence of Julia Thomas. Happens all the time in this game, even here.

As for Peralta deciding "to sell the secret to an itenerant 'Dutchman' for a
'trifle'", I would give more credit to the Bark/Ely version of this story than Bicknell, and here's why:

"I would assume that if the Peraltas had a valid claim to a mine as rich as the Lost Dutchman is purported to be and they had extracted considerable wealth from it already then they would be able to check with some Mexican official or other to determine if the treaty invalidated their claim or not. At least if I was Peralta I'd sure do that before I arbitrarily assumed the claim was no longer valid...."

That's excellent reasoning, and I have no doubt it's exactly what Peralta did. According to the Bark Notes and the Sims Ely book, Peralta did not sell nor give the LDM to Waltz. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to reach here.

Further, Peralta did not have a "deed of conveyance and perpetuity" from the Mexican Government. What he had was: "simply a sole right to mine within certain described boundaries" which "was not recognized by the United States". (Emphasis in bold by, Joe)

P.C. Bicknell had a leg-up on many of the early searchers for the LDM and, perhaps, came a good deal closer than many. Everyone knows where he put his money down in the Superstitions and he claims, at the end of his article, that he found "a rock cabin in a cave, very near the region referred to; but it was the work of cliff dwellers, and besides, there was no mine on the opposite side of the canyon."

I believe this should put this particular portion of the thread to bed, and that's where I am going.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

It is unfortunate for you Joe that while I detested any and all things concerning high school, the book was a gift from that teacher who was probably the first person that almost got through to me. For 3 years she let me bend the rules on essays in Az history, U.S. history and Southwest literature and in the process I actually learned something. The best one I did was " Sexual repression and the Salem Witch trials : A study of Cotton Mathers " She actually submitted it to the GUHSD for some achievement thing, but it was rejected because of inappropriate content.

At the end of my senior year they tried to expel me so I wouldn't graduate because of a stupid, but harmless practical joke and she showed up and convinced them to let me finish. I hated high school, but Mrs Lumm was pretty cool as far as I am concerned.

[Chief Oshkosh]

Mr Joe

Thank you for the information. Could I ask you a couple of questions before this is "put to bed"? Then I promise you I will speak of it no more. You mention the Sims Ely book and the Bark Notes. I assume that the Sims Ely book is The Lost Dutchman Mine. I've heard of it but I've never read it. Are the Bark Notes contained in that book? If not where can I find them? It appears I should read both to have a clearer picture of the legend. Thanks for your help.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chief,

You can quote obscure lines from a P.C. Bicknell article written in 1895 but have not read the Bark Notes or Sims Ely? Somehow I never took you for a man of such limited education.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

You can find the Probert version at the Phoenix central library. They have only 1 copy and you have to request it at the front desk. You will be able to view them in the sitting room. There is a copier there which is 20 cents per page. It will run you a pretty penny to copy it all. You have to leave ID at the front desk when requesting to view the notes. Corbins Lost Dutchman Bible has the 70 or so pages that are most often used by everyone. The actual notes are substantially longer and interesting in its entirety. There are differences between the various versions. Proberts is annotated and edited. Al Morrows version is in Corbins book.

[Chief Oshkosh]

Mr Joe

My Lost Dutchman Education comes from the following sources:

The Bicknell article was quoted in some lost treasure magazine I read years ago. I went to the U of W Oshkosh and the librarian got me a copy of the article from the U of C Berkeley's Bancroft Library through the "interlibrary loan" program. I think it cost me $2.00. The magazine article said this piece out of the San Francisco Chronicle, January 13, 1895, page 12, was the first article on the Lost Dutchman. At the time I figured it must be the closest to the truth since it was the oldest.

Next I found a copy of John D. Mitchell's Lost Mines of the Great Southwest at a yard sale the old lady dragged me to up to in Neenah.

Then I got a computer and discovered a lost treasure forum on About.com. A bunch of the people there said that Dr. T.E. Glover's The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz was the best book available. So I bought that along with the Part 2 The Holmes Manuscript by the same author.

Then last Christmas the old lady gave me The Story of Jacob Walzer Superstition Mountain and its famed Dutchman's Lost Mine by Barney Barnard ninth edition August 1964. She said she found it at another of the yard sales she loves so much.

That plus what I've learned on the old and now this forum is the extent of my Lost Dutchman Education.

[Chief Oshkosh]

Mr zentull

Thank you. You are very kind. I owe you one.

[TGH]

How bizarre is this guy..........?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mr. Chief,

It seems that, for some reason, not everyone believes you are the "newbie" you claim to be. That's really an easy perception for you to change, should you think it important.

A number of members on this Forum have posted their real names. Many of them are local folks, and others are very well known in the Dutch Hunter Community. Other than myself, they don't say things that would make them a target for idiots.

Pick the one you have the most respect for, and e-mail that person your personal information, including your phone number. They can give you a call and then tell the rest of the members that you are not said "wolf in sheep's clothing".

I would be happy to be that person, even if you don't respect me.
Your personal information would go to the grave with me, which anyone who knows me would tell you is true.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

About the sombrero....


Has anyone considered Hat Mountain? It used to be called "Sierra Sombrero"

It is between Sand Tank Mountains and the north end of Sauceda Mountains..

John "Cap" Linger reportidly found a lode of tungsten there once...which is now "lost".

Might fit some of the "maps" floating around a little better.

[TGH]

>>That's really an easy perception for you to change, should you think it important.<<

I wouldnt hold my breath waiting.........

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

Just trying to keep the conversation a little less confrontational. For me, that's a huge step.

Respectfully,

Joe

[TGH]

Aww...he'll just go crawl under whatever rock he lives beneath and come back out again in a while under a new persona..its entertaining, but his act has gotten old.......

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

You are correct. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Our friend will show up again and again. He will get mad and leave in a huff. A good friend of ours told me that a few years ago and, as always, he was spot-on.

The first sign he is coming back, is a flood of newbies signing up all at once. I see that, and it makes me smile. Character flaw I reckon.

I am, pretty much, over the Jan/others fiasco. A few knew what was up from "her/their" first posts. The real fault of his game was the horrendous timing for the end of it. It would have been nice to see him stand up, like a man, and do the right thing.

I hope you, Matthew, Wiz and Azmula will show up at the next Rendezvous. I believe there will be visitors from the happy place gathered around the campfire and looking for old friends.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

I believe the first public work on the Superstitions was Oren Arnolds book in 1934 which uses the term "La Sombrera" and makes reference to the needle being referred to as a crown of a hat and reference to the needle as the "Hat ". Arnold was a member of the Dons and the book is the Dons story basically in long form. Later editions of the book were retitled and added updates. There are some nice photos in those editions. Pretty much follows the Holmes camp story and is probably the source for some of the later misinformation concerning the LDM.