OK..i will stick my head out on this one...
i agree it was a great post...
it is a dissertation to prove that question...
people the Hohokam traded with to the south were metal workers...people to the north used metal oxides to paint religious objects...
could a sedentary civilization have existed that divided labor and skills, prehistoric zoning laws? beans here...mining over there...even in the south were they worked metal..it is rare to find any metal in a 'peon's grave', metal for the top of the sedentary pyramid?
we just have not found the 'royal tombs'?
i know i am not as articulate as needed for this task today...duh...
general question
Pip
Pip,
that too, was a great post. A thinking man's post!
I think your pretty close on this. The oxides for paint had to come from somewhere, and could explain some of what I am seeing.
And your right...
what are the chances that the common folk obtained any Gold... whereas that guy over there on the mound... he's loaded with the stuff! That would make a great deal of sense.
Laz
that too, was a great post. A thinking man's post!
I think your pretty close on this. The oxides for paint had to come from somewhere, and could explain some of what I am seeing.
And your right...
what are the chances that the common folk obtained any Gold... whereas that guy over there on the mound... he's loaded with the stuff! That would make a great deal of sense.
Laz
Max Delta
Wow!
I kept dreaming of pottery shards all night. Thousands and thousands of little pottery shards. It got me to thinking.
At South Mountain Park, there is a mine in the San Juan Valley called the Max Delta. Just a very short distance east of the mine are more, much older digs along the same slope. These digs were obviously not mining for Iron Oxide. They were dug for ore. What makes this important is that the mine site is covered with petroglyphs credited to the Hohokam.
If these are indeed, Hohokam petroglyphs, why are they located at a Gold mine?
Here's a link to an article I wrote on the subject a few years back. I've added a few brand new photographs, and I intend to add more text in the coming days, as I decide what is relevant.
http://destinationarizona.blogspot.com/ ... ntain.html
I should mention, the Max Delta mine, the mine in question, was the second largest producer of Gold in Maricopa County for the year 1935.
By the way,
this is another article I had posted here, before they 'rebuilt' the website.
Laz
I kept dreaming of pottery shards all night. Thousands and thousands of little pottery shards. It got me to thinking.
At South Mountain Park, there is a mine in the San Juan Valley called the Max Delta. Just a very short distance east of the mine are more, much older digs along the same slope. These digs were obviously not mining for Iron Oxide. They were dug for ore. What makes this important is that the mine site is covered with petroglyphs credited to the Hohokam.
If these are indeed, Hohokam petroglyphs, why are they located at a Gold mine?
Here's a link to an article I wrote on the subject a few years back. I've added a few brand new photographs, and I intend to add more text in the coming days, as I decide what is relevant.
http://destinationarizona.blogspot.com/ ... ntain.html
I should mention, the Max Delta mine, the mine in question, was the second largest producer of Gold in Maricopa County for the year 1935.
By the way,
this is another article I had posted here, before they 'rebuilt' the website.
Laz
-
pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
i have had those nights...
in a desert society that respects life...how do you make war? war is a result of opposed parties access to resources.
anthropologists have argued why the anasazi left...where did they go?
not many bodies have been unearthed to suggest war as we know it...
it is my contention, that if one people wanted another to leave an area of the desert...rush their village, and break their pottery.
no water containers in an intermittent water area? the winners are those with pottery left.
ceramics are a labor/time intensive process...
this method was used in mesoamerica...the flower wars? i forget...duh
anyway...some peculiar things happened in the prehistoric mountains of the southwest...trails wide enough for two wagons...in a society that did not use the wheel...metal taken from the earth...few metal pieces found in the southwest...those imported?
did the southern kings..olmec/toltec/maya extend their influence farther north than ever imagined?
how can two societies share a border...an one works metal and the other shuns it?
almost like prehistoric republicans a democrats...
in a desert society that respects life...how do you make war? war is a result of opposed parties access to resources.
anthropologists have argued why the anasazi left...where did they go?
not many bodies have been unearthed to suggest war as we know it...
it is my contention, that if one people wanted another to leave an area of the desert...rush their village, and break their pottery.
no water containers in an intermittent water area? the winners are those with pottery left.
ceramics are a labor/time intensive process...
this method was used in mesoamerica...the flower wars? i forget...duh
anyway...some peculiar things happened in the prehistoric mountains of the southwest...trails wide enough for two wagons...in a society that did not use the wheel...metal taken from the earth...few metal pieces found in the southwest...those imported?
did the southern kings..olmec/toltec/maya extend their influence farther north than ever imagined?
how can two societies share a border...an one works metal and the other shuns it?
almost like prehistoric republicans a democrats...
Shards
Pip,
great post! I love it!
The water issue makes great sense. After all, the Romans were defeated, not with swords, but with scads of fellers tearing the the auquaducts. No water, no Romans.
The same would certainly work as you described.
Laz
great post! I love it!
The water issue makes great sense. After all, the Romans were defeated, not with swords, but with scads of fellers tearing the the auquaducts. No water, no Romans.
The same would certainly work as you described.
Laz
Homer’s Epiphatree
Pip,
wow!
It just occurred to me that the canals could easily been compromised in a manner similar to the auquaducts. Once again, he who controls the water, controls the land.
Brad
wow!
It just occurred to me that the canals could easily been compromised in a manner similar to the auquaducts. Once again, he who controls the water, controls the land.
Brad
Pip,
in each of my last two posts, a word has somehow escaped. The first should have read:
The water issue makes great sense. After all, the Romans were defeated, not with swords, but with scads of fellers tearing (down) the the auquaducts. No water, no Romans.
The second should have read:
It just occurred to me that the canals could easily (have) been compromised in a manner similar to the auquaducts. Once again, he who controls the water, controls the land.
I need more coffee...
Laz
in each of my last two posts, a word has somehow escaped. The first should have read:
The water issue makes great sense. After all, the Romans were defeated, not with swords, but with scads of fellers tearing (down) the the auquaducts. No water, no Romans.
The second should have read:
It just occurred to me that the canals could easily (have) been compromised in a manner similar to the auquaducts. Once again, he who controls the water, controls the land.
I need more coffee...
Laz
-
JIM HAMRICK
- Part Timer
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:46 am
- Location: phoenix
- Contact:
general question
It appears that many of you have thoughts more detailed than mine of the Hohokam in the valley.
I do know that the indigenous people the valley liked adornment because of the number of broken sea shells that had been expertly made by cutting the around the lip and drilling a hole in this ring. There were, in quantity, clay disks about the size of a dollar coin with a hole in the center which as a kid I though they wore them around their necks but I have seen reference that may have been weights for rabbit or bird nets. If they adorned themselves why would they not have liked gold nuggets beat into ornaments?
There must have been a complex way of governing the people because of the public works being done ie canals, dams and the maintenance of these. Not knowing how their government worked I do not know if they had a ruling class or what.
I think that the Hohokam cremated their dead so no tombs will be found. Having said that I have to contradict myself by telling of what a desert running friend found. He found, in the San Tans, where a large pile of rock had been placed and pathways laid out from this mound in circular pattern and ended where smaller mounds of rock were. This is all secondhand info but my friend told the truth but like me did not always understand what he was seeing. He later was told by a Pima that a great chief was buried there (my words).
If my pea sized brained is remembering correctly the gold mine(s) on south mountain were still producing until F.D.R. closed them down and when the war was over they thought that the expense of opening them again would not pay because of the price of gold at that time.
jim hamrick
I do know that the indigenous people the valley liked adornment because of the number of broken sea shells that had been expertly made by cutting the around the lip and drilling a hole in this ring. There were, in quantity, clay disks about the size of a dollar coin with a hole in the center which as a kid I though they wore them around their necks but I have seen reference that may have been weights for rabbit or bird nets. If they adorned themselves why would they not have liked gold nuggets beat into ornaments?
There must have been a complex way of governing the people because of the public works being done ie canals, dams and the maintenance of these. Not knowing how their government worked I do not know if they had a ruling class or what.
I think that the Hohokam cremated their dead so no tombs will be found. Having said that I have to contradict myself by telling of what a desert running friend found. He found, in the San Tans, where a large pile of rock had been placed and pathways laid out from this mound in circular pattern and ended where smaller mounds of rock were. This is all secondhand info but my friend told the truth but like me did not always understand what he was seeing. He later was told by a Pima that a great chief was buried there (my words).
If my pea sized brained is remembering correctly the gold mine(s) on south mountain were still producing until F.D.R. closed them down and when the war was over they thought that the expense of opening them again would not pay because of the price of gold at that time.
jim hamrick
Jim,
good post.
I will be this first to admit I can't explain everything I see. Of course, there were numerous tribes with varying cultures and practices. Nearly anything is possible (outside of former law officers finding bigfoot)
That having been said, I recently poured over a massive report suggesting the shells and shards were both used as some type of currency, but perhaps they were more like trading cards. (I'll trade you two of my brown shards for one of your blue and white shells, etc.)
I have found buried Mexicans near the Colorado River, and in the Harcuvar Mountains, but never Indians.
Laz
good post.
I will be this first to admit I can't explain everything I see. Of course, there were numerous tribes with varying cultures and practices. Nearly anything is possible (outside of former law officers finding bigfoot)
That having been said, I recently poured over a massive report suggesting the shells and shards were both used as some type of currency, but perhaps they were more like trading cards. (I'll trade you two of my brown shards for one of your blue and white shells, etc.)
I have found buried Mexicans near the Colorado River, and in the Harcuvar Mountains, but never Indians.
Laz
Empires
Pip,Laz and Jim:
Some interesting ideas presented here,and I believe that you are all on the right trail.The civilizations of central america rivaled those of Greece and Rome and the ruins of their distant outposts and garrison compounds continue to be discovered and studied to this day.Both of these empires,as well as others,before and after, were created from a culture of war and conquest and eminated from lands of abundance.They created incredibly complex works of art,erected magnificent buildings,managed their affairs by political consensus and played games in arenas on festive occasions.They worshipped a plethoria of gods and created organizations of priests in order to administer their religion.They gathered precious metals where they were found in the conquered lands and transported same back to Athens and Rome.They fielded vast armies that marched thousands of miles in search of new lands and spoils,including the slaves which their growing cities required for labour.They built extensive trade routes.All this is of course well known,and more,but we did not learn much of what we know of the Ancient Romans and Greeks from the oral records and tribal legends of the conquered people of Europe,Britain,the Urals,the middle east,etc.Yet,southwestern historians will claim that the lack of same among the southwestern tribes of the last two centuries supports their theory of Mezoamerican isolation.
Just musing:SH.
Some interesting ideas presented here,and I believe that you are all on the right trail.The civilizations of central america rivaled those of Greece and Rome and the ruins of their distant outposts and garrison compounds continue to be discovered and studied to this day.Both of these empires,as well as others,before and after, were created from a culture of war and conquest and eminated from lands of abundance.They created incredibly complex works of art,erected magnificent buildings,managed their affairs by political consensus and played games in arenas on festive occasions.They worshipped a plethoria of gods and created organizations of priests in order to administer their religion.They gathered precious metals where they were found in the conquered lands and transported same back to Athens and Rome.They fielded vast armies that marched thousands of miles in search of new lands and spoils,including the slaves which their growing cities required for labour.They built extensive trade routes.All this is of course well known,and more,but we did not learn much of what we know of the Ancient Romans and Greeks from the oral records and tribal legends of the conquered people of Europe,Britain,the Urals,the middle east,etc.Yet,southwestern historians will claim that the lack of same among the southwestern tribes of the last two centuries supports their theory of Mezoamerican isolation.
Just musing:SH.
-
pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
(or maybe with a club)I just sent a fellow by the name of Blindbowman a link to this site and suggested he register and get involved in your discussion - I think you'll find he's a great asset SHSomehiker wrote:Laz:
I concur,providing that the focus remains on the americas.I'm a bit tired of esoteric ideas re: atlantis and 2012 etc.
Regards:SH.
(just kidding of course - hehe)
I more or less ignored him for quite awhile up until about a month ago - seems I must have been missing amusement. I reached capacity again yesterday and today so I'll have to give it another couple months before I start responding to him again. And YES, I'm fully confident he'll still be thereSomehiker wrote:Cubfan:
Question---whats worse than waterboarding?
Answer----you just came up with it.
Take a hike over to the latest from BB in the "Everything" topic on T-Net.
It's the best yet:SH.
The land of the blind
Guys,
what can one say about the 'Blind Bowman'? Just about the time I start making a fool of myself, he comes along and steals my thunder.
You know what say...
in the land of the blind, the one eyed bowman shall be king.
Laz
what can one say about the 'Blind Bowman'? Just about the time I start making a fool of myself, he comes along and steals my thunder.
You know what say...
in the land of the blind, the one eyed bowman shall be king.
Laz
Again?
Question,
why are portions of our text not appearing?
This time, the word 'they' vanished from my post. It should have read:
You know what (they) say...
in the land of the blind, the one eyed bowman shall be king.
or something like that.
Brad
why are portions of our text not appearing?
This time, the word 'they' vanished from my post. It should have read:
You know what (they) say...
in the land of the blind, the one eyed bowman shall be king.
or something like that.
Brad
Bowman went over to one of the San Carlos forums a year or so back and got quite spiritual and named himself as some kind of savior or something.
He pretty much took that forum down and in such a way no one could even approach a reply as weird as he got. In was quite the descent into madness.......almost in a poetic sense.
It made everything I have seen him post before or after seem tame in comparison.
He pretty much took that forum down and in such a way no one could even approach a reply as weird as he got. In was quite the descent into madness.......almost in a poetic sense.
It made everything I have seen him post before or after seem tame in comparison.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Crazy Talk.....
Deleted by admin
Rodeo Clown
By the way...
this is an open thread, and has covered many subjects. If Joe is going to take cheap shots at others from his 'Moderated Forum', then we have a right to comment accordingly without going over to his forum and providing him with our IP addresses, which he should not have access to.
I was going to welcome Joe back, until I saw he was up to his usual stupidity.
The Bowman may be insane, but at least the webmaster had enough sense not to give Bowman his own moderated forum.
Laz
===============================================
===============================================
Note from admin:
Please do not use the LDM Discussions forum to respond to "cheap shots" in other forums. Respond to them in the Boxing & Wrestling or the First Amendment forums.
Thanks
this is an open thread, and has covered many subjects. If Joe is going to take cheap shots at others from his 'Moderated Forum', then we have a right to comment accordingly without going over to his forum and providing him with our IP addresses, which he should not have access to.
I was going to welcome Joe back, until I saw he was up to his usual stupidity.
The Bowman may be insane, but at least the webmaster had enough sense not to give Bowman his own moderated forum.
Laz
===============================================
===============================================
Note from admin:
Please do not use the LDM Discussions forum to respond to "cheap shots" in other forums. Respond to them in the Boxing & Wrestling or the First Amendment forums.
Thanks