The Caves of the LDM

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

Joe; Larry probley meant to keep your mule,s back to the rock wall? so he can see not to fall his ass-end off the ledge!!!!!!!!!!!!! bill 8)
LARRY WEBB
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Ledge

Post by LARRY WEBB »

Roger
Yes, there are other things that go with the ledge. It's not just any old
ledge that you could find anywhere.

Peter
There could very easily have been a hole at the beginning of the ledge
that has collapsed or been destroyed over the 150+ years.

And Joe
Yes, you don't know any of the details of the ledge.

Respectfully

Larry
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Larry,

We know only what you have told us.

"The trick that's being talked about is a narrow ledge about a foot wide
that has a drop off on one side and a wall on the other side. You have to
turn sideways with your back to the wall and inch along to get there."

What was there about the ledge that required you to turn your back to the wall? Hard to see where that information would be giving anything away. As I said, "almost always". It would be interesting to know why this ledge is the exception to the rule.

Did you find the "other way" to the mine, so that you could bypass the ledge?

Bark said he found the trail and the monuments. Strange that he did not mention the ledge, as he was afraid of heights.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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The Ledge

Post by bill711 »

Larry; You left me out on the narrow ledge with my back to the rock wall holding on by my puckered-up-ass now do something with me or at least get me out of my fix??? Bill 8) don,t mind Joe :roll:
LARRY WEBB
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Ledge

Post by LARRY WEBB »

bill711

Bill, the ledge is under the Indian nose and if you fell or jumped off you
wouldn't DIE but you could get scratched up, bruise or twist something
and that could be bad out there. The ledge is the only way to get to the
mine and the large cave about 200' across. This mine is about a mile
from the mine Waltz worked and he also knew about this one.

Does this get you off the ledge?

Have a good one!

Larry
bill711
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The Ledge

Post by bill711 »

Larrry; Do I fall thru the hole/cave?? Or do I have to wait for it?? bill 8)
LARRY WEBB
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Ledge

Post by LARRY WEBB »

Bill

No you would fall down close to the mine and the cave is farther on.

Larry
sluicebox
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Post by sluicebox »

late49er,

I just read through this thread and would like to back up to the question about where Deering started his trail to the mine. Why do you think he started from the "old" Squaw Valley or Canyon where it intersects LaBarge? What I'm trying to get at here is if it is possible to get to the same area (where Deerings markers and or a mine are located) by starting at different points (Tortilla Spring)and following the same directions or clues? Thanks, Larry
late49er
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Post by late49er »

Hello sluicebox,


Believe the area around the old Squaw Canyon(Valley) and LaBarge is where you would have found the Willow that Deering marked. If I remember correctly Bark is the one that took that clue out.

Yes I believe you can get to the general area from a different access route. I prefer the trail that Martin left. Although at this stage of my life I prefer to be dropped down in the general area at night instead of climbing up.

Regards,


Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Back To The Original Source

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

I have said it many times on this Forum, and while having lunch with a good friend, he mentioned that most of these stories do not come from the original source, but have been presented well, "after the fact".

He thought that the best sources for this story are still, Jim Bark, Sims Ely and by extension he added John Chunning, just as I have from time to time.

I just deleated a few dozen lines. You all have exactly the same information as the other guy. Once you decide there is truth in the stories that came along later, you won't look back.

We all learned in high school, that a few words spoken at one end of the room and whispered to each person in turn, never resembles what was originally said by the time it gets to the last person. The correlation to the story in question should be obvious.

The only thing missing in this story, is the fire breathing dragon guarding the entrance to the mine. :roll:

I have to admit, it is fascinating to watch this story expand, post by post.
Can't wait for the next revelation. :)

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
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dragons, tricks and whatever

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe,

Have to admit I am not familiar with the fire breathing dragon clue. I will have to check my clue list to see if that is a close in phenomena.

But then again maybe the dragon was taken out by the black legion or perhaps eaten by the Apache`s with the mules they took from the Peralta`s.

Or maybe it is still guarding the LDM, hiding out in the honeycomb, behind the hidden waterfall waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting Dutch hunter.

Seriously though, the tradition that has been made public surrounding the LDM allows for multiple interpretations of events that each in its own way is easily believable. For example does Deering ever say that the trick in the trail is a hole or cave? I have never seen such a statement. So if folks want to believe the trick is a hole, cave, a bifurcation of the trail into many trails, or a ledge so what. That is one of the fun things about the LDM it allows for such things.

Also keep in mind that one persons flight of fantasy is another person`s reality. For example you and i both believe in the existence of the black legion. Others do not. I am perfectly ok with that because folks are free to believe what they will.

Perhaps there is not one trail to the truth but many. That is the true trick in the trail.


Regards,


Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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The Truth Behind The Rose Colored Glasses

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

When I first joined this Forum, the conversations were respectful, educated and made some sense, given the history of the legends. At some point we got Waltz as a cross dresser, Kino's rose colored glasses and a host of con-men hawking their wares.

After all of that, it seems reasonable to suspect new clues, new evidence and new stories. All of them come with no sources. We get; I been there, I've seen it, I moved it and I hid it. Sorry.....I don''t believe it, none of it.

That belief and five bucks, will get me a mediocre cup of coffee. :lol:

"For example does Deering ever say that the trick in the trail is a hole or cave? I have never seen such a statement."

"John said that Deering could not help talking about it, and would keep breaking forth, saying, 'John, there is a trick on that trail. Oh, it is no trick either, but you have to go through a cave or hole.'"
Jim Bark Notes

"He did volunteer one statement, however, which puzzled Chewning and also puzzled Jim Bark and me when Chewning repeated it to us. 'John there's a trick on the trail,' Dearing said. Oh, not much of a trick-but you have to go through a hole."
Sims Ely

To add weight to the above statements, you have this quote attributed to the Two Soldiers:

"They followed it but a short distance and were in high hopes when the trail led them through a cave between the peaks. It must have been a foot trail, as animals could not go through the cave."
Jim Bark Notes

(All emphasis in bold by, Joe)

I know that going back to the words of Jim Bark and Sims Ely have fallen out of favor these days, but I will take their words over any modern-day Dutch Hunter's new evidence/story.

New stories and "evidence/clues" get floated on this Forum with regularity.
Most are leaders for new books on the LDM and various legends of the Superstitions. Most of those books will lead the readers over worn-out treasure trails. Got to take those old stories and clues and move them into a new area.

Other than the quotes, everything in this post is pure speculation and personal opinion. Until one of us brings forth the kind of rich ore that the LDM is said to contain, our opinions are no better than the next guys.

We can all voice them here, just don't expect everyone to nod their heads, mutter Yup! and give us all "atta-boys".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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The Ledge

Post by bill711 »

Jow; You are getting very sceptical in your real old age! YUP and ATTABOY.. bill 8) :lol: :lol: :lol:
late49er
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tricks trails and what might be

Post by late49er »

Joe,

Believe I heard the one about Waltz being a cross dresser but I never added that to the clue list. A dragon on the other hand, that is importent to know.

Seriously though having said that you are perfectly correct about the tradition. I still believe Ely`s work, Bark`s notes, and Carlson`s book on hiking in the Superstition`s is all one really needs to know.

I remember for a long time I never posted on this site I was just content to read the wonderful dialogues that occurred here. Reading you, TGH, LDM, Azmula, and others was a real excitement to me and hopefully those dialogues inspired others to become a part of the legend of the LDM. I still say LDM had the most importent post that was ever put on this board. Thank God he deleated it.

Your putting together the meet in the desert is a great opportunity for folks to get together, have a good time and talk about the wonderous mystery referred to as the Superstition Mountains. I once said the Superstition Mountains are about the human heart and not about greed, what you are doing shows that. You know in a way the location of things in the Superstitions perhaps should never be known. Suspect there are folks out there who would run a 4-lane to the mines, and sell Waltz burgers across from the site. There are sacred things in those mountains that from where I sit will never be disturbed. You can take that to the bank. My hat is off to you for your effort.

Now about the trick in the trail. You are probaly right, the trick in the trail is a hole but you have to admit no one ever says that. And actually I like the ledge idea better. Not sure how to get across that. I would probably ass-pucker and die. Believe Larry has a great insight and he maybe right. You have to admit he has discovered something that is extremely importent and I hope he continues to post here. Have to admit it was fun seeing TGH have a headache over the word that. And he should have. His point is well taken.

Is everything that has not been proven simply speculation. Not so sure about that. Tell you what there are some wonderful restaurants in Pheonix, not all Italian, I will make you a bet for dinner. The bet is that I can tell you where the Matchbox ore came from. Simply take a look at my comments about LDM 1. What did I say. An epithermal deposit associated with a caldera complex. Go figure. Never said all of the ore was vuggy. Also keep in mind that ore deposits can well vacilate within close distances even if the form and content of the deposit stays the same. That will be shown to be the case sooner or later. How do I know. Hey maybe just a lucky guess, maybe not. Maybe the Dutchman and I talk about it regularly. Anyway I will get a great steak and a good evening of telling lies about the LDM. Does it get any better?

On final thought. Bill711 your posts are great. You seem like a outstanding person to get blitzed with.

Oh well have to go. Ever tell you that working with the legal profession is like herding cats. It really is.


Regards,


Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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I Repeat......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

You said:

"Now about the trick in the trail. You are probaly right, the trick in the trail is a hole but you have to admit no one ever says that."

I wrote this in my last post:

"John said that Deering could not help talking about it, and would keep breaking forth, saying, 'John, there is a trick on that trail. Oh, it is no trick either, but you have to go through a cave or hole.'"
Jim Bark Notes

"He did volunteer one statement, however, which puzzled Chewning and also puzzled Jim Bark and me when Chewning repeated it to us. 'John there's a trick on the trail,' Dearing said. Oh, not much of a trick-but you have to go through a hole."
Sims Ely

To add weight to the above statements, you have this quote attributed to the Two Soldiers:

"They followed it but a short distance and were in high hopes when the trail led them through a cave between the peaks. It must have been a foot trail, as animals could not go through the cave."
Jim Bark Notes

(All emphasis in bold by, Joe)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you miss the quotes? I will admit that "no one " said "trick in the trail"
but they did say "on the trail". Do you think there is a distinction?

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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The Ledge

Post by bill711 »

OK JOE; I vote for a long hole? that should take care of and cover our ass on this cave/hole trick in/on the trail thingy??? :lol: bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Good Company

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

"I remember for a long time I never posted on this site I was just content to read the wonderful dialogues that occurred here. Reading you, TGH, LDM, Azmula, and others was a real excitement to me and hopefully those dialogues inspired others to become a part of the legend of the LDM. I still say LDM had the most importent post that was ever put on this board. Thank God he deleated it."

I appreciate your putting me in that rarafied company, but I was just along for the ride.

As for LDMs post, don't tempt me or I will bring it back to life here. Many of us print out the better posts, and that would include almost everything that LDM did. Almost, because there are a few I missed. :cry: The post you are referring to was not one of the missing.

I assume you will not be a "no show" at the next Rendezvous. That is the only way you will get your T-Shirt from last year. :lol: Your share of the food went home with Roger. :evil:

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
late49er
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tricks/trails/ viva Las Vegas

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe,

Hope things are going well with you and yours. Pretty day here in Reno but not for long.

Interesting point about the trick in the trail. Maybe I am completely wrong the birfurcation of the trail is not the trick. Who knows maybe the hole is in the cave. Have to say the Peralta mining efforts did not make a lot of room like the Anglo`s did. Actually a real tight fit.

Let`s see Deering works his way up from down below. He sees a hole whatever, makes his way up the mountain, comes to the birfucation of the trail and decides to take THAT trail. Why because looking to the east he seems something that catches his eye. Once he comes to the exit although he believes it is the entrance, he scrambles up and in. In the cave, the Peralta`s had expanded to make room for carrying ore, he makes his way through the hole in the cave and comes out the other side and goes down into a crack in the earth. Real honeycomb and pretty scary.

Ever wonder why Chunning pole vaulted from one cave to another all those years? Maybe he was looking for a cave with a hole in it that would lead them to the mine. Maybe Chunning always knew the hole was in the cave.


Now the Soldier Boys. They intersect the trail system at a different juncture, make their way to where Deering enters the Cave and here we go again.

What did the Soldier boys say: "They followed it but a SHORT distance and were in high hopes when the trail led them through a cave between the peaks, It must have been a foot trail, as animals could not go through the cave." Makes sense to me, never saw a mule climb a ladder yet or scale a rock face to enter a cave."

What did Deering say: John, there is a trick on that trail, Oh it is no trick either, but you have to got though a cave or hole. Guess if I was describing a hole in a cave I might say the same thing. Why? because a hole in a cave you have to go though could be considered tricky, a hole on a trail is just a hole. Might explain why Deering indicated the hole was a trick and at the same time not so. There were always two holes. The Peralta`s, they were just expanding the cave to get a quicker way out. Might explain the difficulty is seeing all of this from above.

Joe you are getting good at this too good. I am not in your league, just a rock hound.

Now about LDM`s post. I never said which one it was so you would have to speculate as to which one it was. Who knows maybe LDM is the Dutchman anyway.

Yes we will be there this year, if we are still wanted. Last year and this year have been difficult for us. Lost 2 members of our team to age related illnesses.

You know there is a beautiful flower garden in the Superstitions we have cared for each year. Remind me to tell you the history sometime.

By the way. Feel free to send the steaks to the college. I would like at least 6 nice rib-eyes. Only the best of quality of course.

Roger,

Just a follow up on our discussion regarding gold deposits in the Superstitions. Really we are not in disagreement on anything. In reading Glover again it became apparent his ore analysis only talks about the quartz crystalliation temperature being over 200c. Given that quartz crystallization temperature`s between 200-300c are commen in both epithermal and mesothermal systems, Glover is really making no statement as to the type of ore deposit we are dealing with. My mistake I am just not using to seeing quartz crystallization temperatures describe that way. I thought Glover was saying the deposit was mesothermal.


Regards,


Late49er
bill711
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tric,y hole

Post by bill711 »

OK Late I,ll let you get by with that BUT I don,t know if Joe will or not??? bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Taking The Road Less Traveled

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

I am not sure how Joe Deering or the Two Soldiers trail came to the point of "bifurcation", but if your trail forks, it must be so. It seems unlikely that would be the "trick in the trail', since both of the stories describe the "trick" and it does not include a "bifurcation", trifurcation or quadfurcation of the trail. :) I think I just made up a word, which seems appropriate here.

In all truth, I don't know of a single trail in the Superstitions that does not fork but if the trail in question does, it seems a given that the correct fork would have been mentioned in, at least, one of the stories.

"Ever wonder why Chunning pole vaulted from one cave to another all those years? Maybe he was looking for a cave with a hole in it that would lead them to the mine. Maybe Chunning always knew the hole was in the cave."

Like many others, I can only guess. So here is my guess:

I think John Chunning, like countless others, followed the most current story even though he must have believed it was wrong. After all, everyone said it was the real thing. Leave no stone unturned.

Unlike most Dutch Hunters who followed the Joe Deering trail, Chunning must have known that he held all of the cards. The rest held only the cards that Chunning dealt. Talk about a stacked deck. :roll:

I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember that Brownie Holmes claimed that Waltz told his dad three different ways to get to his mine, but when Brownie got serious, he searched from one end of the range to the other. You would think he would, at least, know what area the mine was in.

I believe the early searchers, mostly, just followed Julia and the Petrasches wherever they went. Got to think that Dick Holmes was triping on her skirts from the start....Wouldn't you be?

You are one of many in a long line of Dutch Hunters who claimed they had found the LDM. Two were in my own family, only difference was that Chuck never went public. It may be, that you have found it, or the many its you have claimed. Like the others, there is always a reason that the gold is never seen.

You came on this Forum with a false story. Now you want us to believe you are telling the truth. Once you start down that trail, the transition to beliveability is a rocky path.

In the event that you have found the Lost Dutchman Mine, you should realize that it does not belong to you. The legend of Jacob Waltz has been told around the world. It is every mans dream. No matter how you try to keep it a secret, history will eventually find the truth. You are not it's guardian, but Midas running his fingers through the treasures while smiling down on the little people.

Not knowing you, I assume you believed you had good reasons for doing things the way you have. I am not judging your motives as I only see the trail of bread crumbs you have left for us.

I still look froward to meeting you at the next Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous.
You may punch me then. :) I understand thiis is the kind of post that has gotten me into trouble before, but I trust you will understand the place it is coming from.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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The tricky hole

Post by bill711 »

JOE; It always seems to me that the more that the brownie, chunning and others hunted the further they seemed to get from the ldm; The longer they hunted the more desperate they seemed to get until they didn,t make any real sense in their search or hunt for the mine! The Chunning and Bark at one time were mining pardners in some dirty rock that didn,t even pay them enough to shovel around and they did it hanging from a rope??? :lol: bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Get A Rope?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

Don't recall them hanging from a rope, but you are exactly correct about the longer we search the farther we get from the prize. As time passes, since the death of Jacob Waltz, we get farther from the truth and buried in nice stories.

Respectfully,

Joe
late49er
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The LDM

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe,

As always I have found your post to be well most interesting.

Having said that I believe there are certain issues that need to be expressed between men in a private manner. Basically the public is not invited.

I have responded to you points in a private e-mail


Regards,


Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Replies

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

I only answered the post that you made to me here. I will answer your
e-mail in private.

It may be that you are too close to this thing to view it dispassionately. My post to you was an honest appraisal of what you have presented here, and some things we have exchanged in private.

The Dutch Hunting Community is really a small, tightly wound group. What you do has a way of getting around. Telling the truth, giving your word and honoring commitments will follow you everywhere you go here.

Those things are not always easy to do. That's one of the reasons I have always signed my name to my posts. It is often very enticeing to bend the truth, especially in a Forum such as this. Because I put my name to each post, I know I have to answer for everything I say.

Having used "Heidi" for a short time, I realized I could say anything that seemed expedient, without having to answer to those who knew me. I made it a point to push the facts so that Peter would expose me. I was more comfortable as Joe.

I understood that my post would not set well with you, but as everyone here will tell you, I say what is on my mind. You will never have to ask anyone where I am coming from.....you will always know.

I think we have exchange some interesting posts and e-mails but don't think there is any reason for either of us to "walk on eggs". The "Midas"
comment was uncalled for, and I appologize for that thoughtless remark.

I will look forward to meeting you in person, and becoming more than casual acquaintances. You may feel differently now.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
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The LDM

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe,

As far as apologizing for the Midas remark I am not sure why you need to do so. If you believe I am Midas then you should stick with the story. Have to admit sitting there with all that gold and having a dragon to handle the interlopers is a powerful image.

If you have read my posts as closely as you say then you understand that I have never claimed to have found the LDM. In fact from my perspective the idea that only one Peralta Mine is the LDM is quite nuts. LDM 1 and the other are simply tools I use to keep things straight.

Waltz had access to 4 Peralta Mines, geologically speaking 2 were epithermal deposits, 2 were mesothermal deposits.

You cannot find what you were given.

What I have said is that I have been gifted information regarding Peralta Mining efforts in the Superstitions. Information that is not for sale to you or to anyone.

What is truly valuable in those mountains has nothing to do with gold.

In terms of truth or falsity I believe I have posted a consistant and understandable version of events in the Superstitions. What I have done is to do so in a way that would not lead a person to any particular mine site. It should be clear from my posts why I do so.

As far as the Dutch Hunting Community goes I assume there are some really good folks associated with the group and some folks that are off the deep end. I remember some months ago you were savaged by a couple of them. Seems as though you have forgotten that I was one of the few individuals that stood by your side during that ordeal.

West Boulder Canyon, oh what`s the point.

I wish you well and bear no grudge against you. At our age that is a bit silly anyway.


Regards,


Late49er
Last edited by late49er on Tue May 23, 2006 3:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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