The Caves of the LDM

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Roger
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The Caves of the LDM

Post by Roger »

There are many LDM clues related to caves either on the trail to the mine or in the immediate mine area. My best deciphering of all these "cave" clues is that there are three caves associated with the LDM as follows with a few of the references noted although there are many others:

1. A two room house in the mouth of a large cave which Jake made with heaped-up stones. Cave was near the bottom of a high bluff and faced Northward for he kept a tarp hanging in the entrance to keep out the North wind/rain. (Barry Storm's "Thunder God's Gold", page 62 - hardback version).

COMMENT: Some believe that the cave described is the large one in Peter's Canyon not far to the South of where it branches off Tortilla Creek. The early ranchers claimed to have seen some walls and roof rafters hanging in this cave in the late 1800's.

2. One had to go through a "cave" to get to the head of the canyon where the mine was located. This cave entrance was high up, but one had to go "down" to get to its entrance. People could go through the cave, but animals could not. (Bark Notes, Page 37 - Thorne Story and Page 46 - Two Soldiers Story).

COMMENT: The entrance to this cave would be extremely difficult to find as it is at the top of a very steep and narrow ravine and with higher ground above its opening. It's lower opening is probably not visible from below due to the fact that there is a somewhat level landing area on the lower side of the cave according to Thorne's statements. A real needle in a haystack!

3. There is a cave high up on the canyon wall across from the mine area. It was difficult to get to and not very large
in size. (Estee Conaster's "The Sterling Legend", Page 30, and Milton Rose's "Rainbow's End", Pages 45/46).

COMMENT: This 3rd cave is probably the most questionable of the 3 as to its existence. However, remember that John Phipps hid with his donkey in a small rock shelter he build in a cliff high above the canyon above the mine (Brownie Holmes' "Story of the Lost Dutchman". He could have built this shelter in a shallow cave across the ravine from the mine.

Some food for thought. Any other ideas on LDM caves out there? The one big question is "Which direction does the No. 2 Cave entrance face?". Knowing that would identify which side of a mountain the ravine with the mine is located.

Roger[/b]
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Post by TGH »

Roger

1) Some folks believe the 2-room cave is in the close vicinity of the mine. Others believe it is some distance down canyon. My research leads me to believe that one of the above is indeed correct.

2) There is some confusion about the second cave. Some believe it to be the 2-room cave. I do not believe this is so. I think there is a second cave that faces north. Like the clues say this cave is at the base of a tall bluff. Someone camping here would have been wise to have hung a canvas or tarp to keep the north wind out, as it just howls down the canyon in the winter months.

3) The "cave" (some of the Deering afficianados will say "hole") that leads to the hidden canyon in which the LDM is supposedly located may or may not exist. I am not sure there IS a hidden canyon in which the mine is located. My best guess tells me we should be looking for a brushy ledge in very rough country, rather than a hidden ravine or canyon....course the ledge might be in that canyon...so who knows....

P
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The Caves of the LDM

Post by Roger »

My first posting in this topic contained the "usual" LDM info on the Caves of the LDM. I would offer the following on the first two caves that match some of the research I have done:

1. Two Room Cave: From the Bark Notes and Sims Ely's book, I have come to believe that the two room house in a cave may well be the same as the "Caverna Con Casa" in the Gonzales Map. The Bark Notes and Sims Ely say that Rhiney Petrasch said that Jake said he and Weisner made their camp "several miles" from the mine even thought there was water closer to the mine at that time of the year. They felt safer in this area where they could hobble the extra horses and possibly hide their camp to some degree. The cave in the Northern section of Peter's Canyon just does not meet this description. Sims also mentions Waltz wanted them to go to a spring up the trail above the Bark Ranch. This could have been Bluff Spring, Charlebois Spring, or the large flowing spring in Marsh Valley. If it was the Charlebois or the flowing spring in Marsh Valley, this is the same area that Chuck Kenworthy claims the Caverna Con Case is located in his book, Treasure Secrets of the LDM. On page 63 he shows a topo of that location an the back cover shows an aerial shot of the same area with the cave marked. This area would match what they said Waltz described more closely. The LDM would then be several miles from this location if correct.

2. Cave Above the LDM: This is the "Mother of All Caves" for a LDM hunter to locate. Waltz claimed the entrance to it was so hidden that one could be within a 100 feet of it and never see it. Rolling all the clues that I think are relevant together, this would be the description of this cave:

One would have to be high up on the East ridge of a large mountain with either 3 or 4 peaks of that mountainous clump to your West. From this heigth, one would begin to descend towards the East, possibly down what would appear as the start of a ravine. This ravine may have a turn in it and then comes a wall that would make it appear to be a box canyon at this point. Hidden somewhere in this wall is the entrance to the cave. The cave would be large enough for a man to walk into, but not an animal. There would be enough space inside for the storage of mining tools. The cave floor slopes downward and has a lower exit to it - water probably runs through the cave when it rains. The exit may have been natural or the Spanish may have tunneled through the back wall to get to the other side. Exiting the cave at the lower level, one is looking down into an extremely deep and narrow ravine which has a major turn in it as it goes down. The left wall of the ravine is nearly verticle and impossible to climb up. There is a small flat area to the left of the cave exit and what remains (if any) of a trail down the right side of the steep canyon wall. The trail goes down a distance to a fairly wide ledge that is still high above the narrow canyon floor. One pit mine was dug down into this ledge following a verticle chimney vein of gold. A little further along the ledge is a second pit mine - it may have been around a curve in the ledge, but not to far as it can be seen from the first pit mine. The ledge ends and does not continue past this area. Below one of the pit mines is the horizontal tunnel that Don Peralta started to get below the pit as it became increasingly difficult to widen the pit and go deeper. There was another lower trail on the right side of the canyon leading up to this tunnel which may be gone from erosion by now. NOTE: The right and left sides of the ravine may have to be switched - could be reversed, but this is close to what Dr. Thorne and Wat described.

If this description is correct, it is easy to see why Waltz said you could be within 100 feet of the cave entrance and never see it. Trying to identify the correct canyon from either the top or the bottom would be extremely difficult, even with today's topo maps and climbing gear. However, there are some directional clues as to which way the entrance to the cave faces, which way the mine opening faces, and which way the ravine runs that would help to narrow the area down considerably.

Someone else have an interpretation of the clues that they want to share?

Roger
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Post by TGH »

Roger,

1) I believe Waltz used multiple camps, just as he entered the mountains from different directions. I do not believe his main camp had anything to do with a cave and was chosen for a different reason altogether. Most likely he would have used the caves (and I am certain he used more than one) for shelter during bad weather.

2) Are you certain you are describing Waltz's mine here? I know of an area that closely matches what you describe, but am not so sure Waltz did any mining there.

Bark and Ely lumped nearly ALL reports of a mine and tunnel in difficult terrain as being the LDM. That might be why we have so many different descriptions of the LDM. Perhaps they should have been thinking: multiple mines, mined in a similar fashion....on the same mountain.

P
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Multiple Mines In The Supers

Post by Roger »

Peter,

I agree that the Spanish/Mexicans had mutiple mines in the Superstitions. Kenworthy wrote in his LDM booklet that the Gonzales family in Mexico told him there were 3 gold mines in the Supers - the Peralta owned mine which was first worked and a second mine of similar richness that was later found by a Gonzales and jointly owned by the Peralta's and Gonzales'. There was a 3rd mine owned by the Peralta's that was some distance from the other two and near Miner's Needle.

The mine by Miner's Needle may be on Picacho Butte/Coffee Flat Mountain based on the Spanish signs that Bob Ward found up there. Based on the Robert's diary, I would suspect that the other 100% Peralta owned mine was a pit mine on the North end of Peters Mesa. Then we have the 3rd mine - the LDM.

I also suspect there are more mines in the Supers than just these 3 that were worked in earlier times. The pit mine that McGill dug out on the top of Bluff Springs Mtn matches exactly the description of how the Apache's covered the main mines after defeating Don Peralta's group. I would not be surprised if there were several Spanish mines on top of Bluff Springs. Note that the LDM was not covered then due to its very remote location.

I do agree that the cave that Waltz talked about may not be connected to where he and Weisner had their camp located. That camp would obviously be near water and from Bark/Ely would likely be in a more open area than a narrow canyon.

Roger
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Cave And Mineshaft At Second Water

Post by buscar »

Venturing in the vicinity at the north end of Second Water Canyon, I came upon an old mineshaft filled in with rocks and timber. A spectacular view of Weavers Needle to the south can be seen from the old mine. Below the mine, is an uncompleted tunnel? It appears to have been walled-up at one time, the rocks now fallen revealing the opening or moved to get inside. At the mine site, were tools from mining work or used to fill the shaft—a home made wheelbarrow, a crowbar, a couple of rusty shovels minus their handles, two hardhats, and buckets hidden in the bushes. The remains of a bed along with some trash, was strewn about the area, above Second Water Spring with cattails and reeds.

Above the mineshaft on the mountaintop, is a large stone cairn. Across from the mineshaft is a cave with its opening facing east, and with Indian drawings on its walls? The cave appears to have been a two-room cave but sadly, a section of the cave crumbled. In the cave, was an old bed made of reeds and a stone at its head used as a pillow. Hidden behind some fallen boulders, I found a couple walking sticks. Lying on the floor of the cave, was a wooden spoon hand carved. Before leaving the cave, I took some pictures and replaced the items where, I found them.

On page 74 of Thunder Gods Gold, Barry Storm tells about the Gonzales map that Ruth had acquired and turning up in the hands of LeRoy Purnell claiming, he found the map at the back end of Bluff Spring Mountain. Jack Keenan had supposedly filed a claim to a Peralta mine at Second Water, and the map Purnell believed he had to it, created an argument and ending up in Judge Standage Mesa Court in 1934.

Storm claims, that he did some digging in 1938, at the mine and, uncovered nothing more thrilling than somewhat ironized dirt.

I made a phone call, and later wrote a letter to the Tonto National Forest, Mesa Ranger District Mesa, AZ asking for information relating to the mineshaft and the mining tools at Second Water. In the mail, I received a yellow sheet of paper with mining-related activities (mining laws) within the Wilderness area along with a 3x5 note saying: Hope this info helps, call with any questions! TKS Greg :roll:

In the Hikers Guide to the Superstition Wilderness written by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart, you will find the location mentioned, on page 150 map [10-pp].

buscar :)
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The Ghost Of Obie Stoker

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

I believe you found the claim of my mother's uncle, Obie Stoker. I have the claim if you would like a copy. Actually, I have a copy now....Greg Davis has the original.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Caves

Post by late49er »

Hello Roger,

Enjoyed your posting regarding the caves of the LDM. You asked for other takes on the clues and I will offer the following. I apologize in advance if my comments wander a bit from the caves to other considerations. I only do so to illustrate how the cave issue is an intergral part of other issues, if the ultimate goal is to locate the LDM`s. My comments will relate to Cave 2.

First I believe it is importent to consider the Peralta's had a number of mines in the Superstitions and that a majority of them were in a relatively small area. This does not mean there were not significant deposits elsewhere.

Therefore one would expect that trails and other signs of mining would be concentrated there. What is importent then is to recognize that as the Peralta`s discovered new deposits these deposits would be connected by trails leading from high up to their refining operations, etc., down below.

If this is the case then taking the Deering clues as a starting point it is highly likely that the trail he followed does not lead directly to any one mine but connects to a trail system in the general area of the mines. the key to locating the trail system is well a plant.

Let`s follow Deering as he works his way up from the original Squaw Valley area till he came upon the trick in the trail. The trick in the trail was nothing more than Deering noticing something about the trail that has subsequently been destroyed, that is a bifurcation of the trail into a system of trails. Noticing the trick in the trail for modern exployers has become very difficult because they are caught in the paradigm the trail leads to the LDM not to a trail system. Until that paradigm is broken what has always been there will not be seen. Dearing then followed the trail heading east until he came to a cave that led him not to a canyon but what more aptly be called a crack in the earth. The geological setting of all of this is a volcanic flow of Dacite. Just as an aside what terrified Deering was not a canyon but the strangeness of such a geological phenomena. One could say the whole area is downright bizarre. In an odd way almost beautiful.

The significance of the cave is the water in it and what that water creates. The significance of the cave entrance is that it was never a cave entrance to begin with but an exit. That is why animals could not make their way in. The Peralta`s punched their way through this side of the cave to facilitate the transport of ore. Making it large enough for animals was never their intent.

Also your comments regarding the deposit itself bears consideration. The outcrop you describe represents a epithermal deposit associated with a caldera complex. What does this suggest to you in light of the claim that the Gold stolen from under Jake`s bed was mesothermal in nature.?

Glad March is on the way. Things to do.


Regards,


Late49er
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Post by Wiz »

Late,
You seem awfully sure Deering came up Squaw Canyon, and that the "trick" is gone.
- Wiz
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The Same?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,

Are you saying that "Squaw Valley" and "Squaw Canyon" are the same thing?

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by Wiz »

Oops!
Nope, that slipped by me. I don't know a Squaw Valley in the Superstitions, at least not that I can think of. That's what I get for jumping in after a long absence.

Carry on!
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the trick in the trail and the cave

Post by late49er »

Hi Wiz,

Good point. Perhaps the beginning of an answer to your question is another question. Where in the literature regarding Joe Deering does it specifically say Deering ever says the trick in the trail is a hole or cave?

Believe Deering is reported to have said that there is a trick in the trail, hole/cave. This is a different kind of statement. What Deering is doing is defining two clues not one.

And if one thinks about it what is so tricky about a hole or cave on a trail. What I suggest is tricky is the realization that there is a system of trails one must maneuver.

Perhaps the trail has a hole one goes through to get to the trick in the trail. The trick in the trail is the bifurcation of the trail into a circular system of trails. That trick in the trail is gone. The modern dutchhunter is at a dis-advantage because the tradition has laid down concepts that do not relate to the original phenomena. Deering did not have to deal with this and thats why he succeeded.

Hi Joe,

Excellent Point. Hope things are well with you and yours.


Regards,


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Post by Wiz »

Hi Late,

Thanks, but I don't think I made any point or asked any question. Just made an observation.
Did you mean Squaw Valley, or was that a typo?
Roger
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The Caves of The LDM

Post by Roger »

late49er,

Will try to give some input on two of your comments:

Deering's Clues: Here are some quotes from the Bark Notes (Thomas Probert version) with page numbers included:

1. "I left the burro, and started to follow it, and I believe I followed it six or seven miles, and came to the worst place I ever saw. There was a tunnel, and it had been walled up.......The wall had settled about eight inches, and I don't know how deep the tunnel was. Above the tunnel and further over, it looked as though there had been two big shafts, but they were pretty well filled." (Page 100/101).

2. "John (Chunning - my note), there is a trick on that trail. Oh it is no trick either, but you have to go through a cave or hole, and say John, it is high up and yet you got to go down to it." (Page 102)

3. "John continued to hunt for the mine, and still made the ranch his headquarters. He built numerous rop ladders to let himself down over cliffs in which could be seen caves, and which were absolutely unapproachable in any other way." (Page 106)

COMMENTS: Deering was very clear about the "trick on the trail" being either a cave or hole that was high up and one had to go through it to get to the mine. John Chunning spent years looking for a high up cave on a cliff face - he must have gotten this information from Deering to spend that much effort searching high up caves.

LDM Gold Deposit: The available clues clearly represent the LDM as a chimney shoot of gold. Thomas Glover in "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz Part 1: The Golden Dream" had geology analysis done on three types of Superstition gold: LDM gold, Camp Ore, and Kochera ore. All three of these were identified as mesothermic quartz ores. Mesothermic deposits of quartz result in wallrock alteration in and around veins or shear zones, and extensive replacement of ultramafic to mafic rocks. The Superstitions, were formed by multiple volcanic uprisings and caldreas that then collapsed over milions of years. There are three or four major caldera perimeters that form major fault lines thru several mountainious areas of the Superstitions where I suspect the LDM to be located. Michael F. Sheridan in his book, "Superstition Wilderness Guidebook: an Introduction to the Geology and Trails" (1971) shows several of these caldera outlines in the Supers. I do think that the LDM is a verticle mesothermal deposit that resulted in a verticle chimney deposited on the fault line of an old caldera.

I ain't no geologist, but that is what I have surmised from what I've read. Someone else can probably add to or correct this.

Roger[/b]
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The Caves of The LDM

Post by Roger »

One note of clarification to my above post: The map that Sheridan has in his book showing the volcanic caldera in the Superst only covers the Northwest area of the mountains. I do whish I had a map that covered the remaining areas. Need to do some more hunting for it.

Roger
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Squaw.....?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

There have been a great number of geographical landmarks that have started with the name, "Squaw". While it's always possible that one of those landmarks had a "Squaw Valley" or "Squaw Canyon", I have never heard of a "Squaw Valley" in Arizona. For that matter, I know of only one "Squaw Canyon", nowhere close to the area we are discussing.

That leaves us with a few things to consider. You could have made a mistake, there could be, of have been, such a place at some time in the area's history or, you could be trying to say that Joe Deering started out in Silver City or even in California. I would pick, Silver City, despite Deering's California connection.

A source I lean heavily on for this type of information is, "The Diaries Of
John Gregory Bourke". Bourke marched back and forth over this entire area and kept extensive notes on everything. He was called "naltsus-bichidin" or "Paper Medicine Man" by the Apache. Nothing escaped his "notes", although some of his notes have escaped us. No mention, that I recall, of a "Squaw Valley".

Care to elaborate?

I think a lot of people believe Deering was camped at "Tortilla Spring" and start tracking him from that point.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

Late49er,

I am in agreement with you about the system of trails. Deering, of course, followed the main trail up to the area of the workings, it is quite logical to deduce that he found more than one trail in the area, as there were (and still are) multiple workings in the area. There are several trails that are still visible in places today. In fact, one of the original Deering markers still stands less than a foot or two off of one of these trails.

As to the "trick" I feel this is most likely some sort of hole that one needs to go thru. Whether or not this is near the Deering Mine, I do not know. It may instead be somewhere on the trail itself.


Roger,

You are correct about Chunning and his rope ladders. Makes one wonder that if he was going on Deerings information what was the deal with this method of search. Deering made no mention of the area being in such a rough place that he needed ladders to navigate the terrain. He said he followed a trail, came to a tunnel and that there were workings above and over some. Of course, if one (or both) of those workings was on a difficult to access ledge, that might explain Chunnings actions.

P
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Caldera Map

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

Oops! you already have that map.

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TGH »

>>I think a lot of people believe Deering was camped at "Tortilla Spring" and start tracking him from that point.<<

Joe

I agree..lots of folks do believe that Deering cut his trail in that area of the mountains. Used to think that myself.

P
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The Two Soldiers?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Does that mean you have also changed your mind as to the trail of the Two Soldiers?

Respectfully,

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Post by TGH »

Nope. The Soldiers obviously cut one of the main miners trails that lead north out of the interior of the mountains. Deering found a part of the same trail, he just approached the same area from a different direction. Most likely the Soldiers passed thru the area where Deering camped when they were leaving
the mountains. If one follows the trail a bit south from this location, the saloon swampers "Oxbow" mountain is readily evident and dominates the landscape. Many of the clues associated with the Deering story as told by Bark and Chunning can still easily be seen today in this one particular location.

P
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Squaws/Tricks/Epithermal VS Mesothermal/and Trails

Post by late49er »

Good Morning,

Too cold up here today. Had a bit of snow Yesterday.

My ex-wife put her car in a snow bank last night and called for help. Seems marriages come and go but chores never cease. Amazing. Know a place in the Superstitions she would fit in nicely. It is what it is.

Squaws: I sometimes refer to the original Squaw Canyon as Squaw Valley. It is just a tool I use to keep straight the distinction between the new Squaw Canyon and the old one not shown on maps. My area of interest as far as Deering is concerned is the area where the original Squaw Canyon and LaBarge Canyon intersect. Hope this helps. Apologize for the confusion. Joe thanks for the information. You folks have one heck of a history bank there. Might want to look into the connection between Joe Deering and Eldorado Canyon. The answer might surprise you. One specific mine. Enough clues.

Tricks: I would agree that the tradition does hand down the notion that Deering is saying that the trick in the trail is a hole or cave. Having said that one would have to admit that Deering never actually says this. He places the two concepts closely together but his connection between the two concepts is at best weak. I believe the correct interpetation is that Deering was giving two clues not one. One has to go through a hole, etc., to find the trick in the trail. Deering found the trail system and took the trail leading east because of something he saw in the distance that attracted him. What he saw has been removed. The trail network as TGH rightly points out is still there. Following Joe Deering in that network is the problem. You see Deering`s cave is still there, a bit altered on the west side, the hole is still there, but the bifurcation of the trail system has well been managed. Not really sure what Chuning was up to. If his actions were based on information from Deering God knows what he was told.

Epithermal VS Mesothermal: Love it when we talk Geology. Not that I am very good at it but I find it a bit more well understandable. Is LDM 1 a epithermal or mesothermal deposit? Roger`s points, as I understand them, are well taken. The ore that Glover analyzed did turn out to be mesothermal and it is true that a mesothermic deposit will in fact result in wall rock alteration and the replacement of certain minerals with other minerals. Also it is true that the Superstitions do have a number of Caldera Complexes. My response to these excellent points would be that while Glover`s analysis tell us the samples are mesothermal in nature do they really tell us where they came from? Also


Sorry will have to finish this later. Have to go. Lost track of time.

Good to see you folks talking again.

Two final considerations for now. If the cave entrance is actually the exit what direction does the entrance face? Also and maybe Roger has information on this. Is there any mention of a sunburst in Cave 2.


Regards,


Late49er
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Post by TGH »

Late,

I do ok on putting together puzzles, but am less good on geology. Wouldnt the trace mineral content of the Dutchman Ore be a sort of fingerprint that would, in fact, make it distinguishable from ores in other locations? The fact the Dutchman/Kochera/Camp Ore are almost (but not quite) identical seems to point out for this layman that while the deposits may have come from different locations, those locations had to be rather close together.

I beleive there is a certain trace element that distinguishes the Dutchman ore from the others....cant recollect what that is off the top of my head tho. Will ahve to look thru my files.

P
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Does It Fit?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

How does that fit in with Deering following the trail for 7-8 miles?

I would guess that John Chunning knew all along (about) where the LDM, or Joe Deering's mine was. The fact that he roamed all over the Superstitions did not mean he was always looking for Deering's mine. He may have heard other stories, and got bored with the area he was searching. There is ample evidence to support that idea. He had to know that the story, as he told it to Bark, would not include the use of "rope ladders".

Remember that others also ended up searching from piller to post, and they all claimed to have THE source.

Just another opinion.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

>>How does that fit in with Deering following the trail for 7-8 miles?<<


Well, maybe Deering had to deal with a major elevation change. That would turn 4-5 miles into 7-8 "mountain" miles in a hurry.
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