Silver ore found in Superstition Mountains?

[buscar]

Hello folks


‘Ilunga’from the Tshiluba language, spoken in the Democratic Republic means “a person who is ready to forgive any abuse the first time, to tolerate it a second time, but never the third time.”

I buscar, can vouch that in the month of March 2005, two adventurers (friends of Tracy L Hawkins) searching for Harry’s cave with gold bars near East and West Boulder Canyon, found a fist-size piece of rose-colored quartz laced with silver. No doubt, someone roving through the region discarded the ore not realizing it contained silver. Surrounding the area of the find, are numerous outcroppings of rose quartz that might explain the source of the silver ore.

Rose-colored quartz discovered on the slopes of Superstition Mountain at the Massacre Grounds, (not native to the area) has shown to be identical to the quartz discovered by the two men.

The quartz in its appearance matches that of the fame Lost Dutchman Mine. The dissimilarity is the quartz that came out from under the deathbed of the Dutchman, Jacob Waltz, contained gold.

Although through the years stories have circulated of silver, found in the Superstition Mountains, no credible report of discoveries (up until now) have been forth coming to support any of the claims.

The ore was shown to a science teacher who is an avid rock hound. He was quite certain that it was silver. However, they are waiting to get the ore tested in the same manner the Dutchman ore was tested. The cost is about $100 for the electron microscope and technician’s time. Theirs is one of the rare accounts of silver ore float being found in the Western Superstitions.

The existence of an arrastra at the junction of East and West Boulder Canyon known to early pioneers, including George “Brownie” Holmes, might be the source of the silver ore. Holmes allegedly discovered a piece of gold ore in the arrastra.

On exhibit at the Superstition Mountain Historical Society in Goldfield, Arizona, is the drag rock from the arrastra used to crush the ore. According to information, Tex Barkley one time owner of the Quarter Circle U Ranch, found the drag rock. With the aid of one of his cowhands, they packed it out of the mountains.

The origin of the silver ore may be the first Spanish conquistadors who arrived to the Superstition Mountains. Yet, another possibility might have been sometime in the 1840’s when Don Miguel Peralta a wealthy landowner and miner along with his men were killed in the three-day battle by the Apaches.

The silver in rose-colored quartz whatever its source might be, adds to the mountain’s lore.

buscar

[TGH]

Goodbye

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

There are a number of older documents, books and maps, that mention rose quartz in relation to mines or ore in the Superstitions.

The Fish Map mentions "rose gravel", I believe.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[buscar]

TGH

On the A&E Home Video® “THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE” is a piece of the Dutchman ore said to be the last remaining of the 48 pounds that came from a box under the Dutchman’s bed. The quartz in the video ‘appears’ to be rose color. Yes, my eyes could deceive me at my old age.

buscar

[TGH]

Goodbye

[buscar]

Have you ever noticed that some people always seem to know it all? The truth is, no single person has all the pieces to the puzzle. Some one you can trust may hold the final piece in solving this complex mystery.

The person that is afraid or selfish in sharing information, usually end up like all the rest—an emotional experience of never finding anything themselves.

In his book "THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE" BY SIMS ELY is a prime example: “But to the last Albert Panknin was confident that one day he would find the Lost Dutchman. He, therefore, never revealed his special knowledge to anyone, and when he died on December 11, 1943, that knowledge died with him.”

buscar

[Gene Reynolds]

In the "for what it's worth"

In the Peralta book I found at Stella's home of which I only had about ten minutes to read - I found a page in the book with a picture (black and White) of someone standing in a mine and pointing towards the back wall. The opposite page talked about rose quartz and the vien in the picture - Adolph had penciled in sentences around the edges of this page, things he wanted to remember. The book was apparently a history of the Peralta family mining experiences and where they went to mine. This picture could very well have been one of the mines they had in the Superstitions.

I found Rose Quartz in Borrego just about 125 feet away from the mine I found there. There was a lot in that area and one 5lb piece that was so red it looked like blood on half of it and faded into a nice pink on the other half. It was museum quality! After carrying it a long way in 100 degree plus heat - I could take it no further and left it there for another day. Our Geologist said he was unaware that there even was any in this area.......

It's the same old story - - - - Gold is where you find it!

Hope this helps.....

Gene

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

There is a good deal of information out there that some people have knowledge of, but are not free to divulge the source, or the details.

The information that Gene just gave you is a prime example. I was aware of the information, but it was not my place to make it public. I have a great deal of information that must remain out of the public domain. Those who have trusted me with their secrets know I will carry them to my grave. That trust will never be broken.

I have talked to Tracy a few times. He has helped a number of people over the years. Nice to know something is coming from it.

Perhaps the ore was found close to where Adolph Ruths skull was actually found.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[buscar]

Joe,

You stated: “The information that Gene just gave you is a prime example. I was aware of the information, but it was not my place to make it public.”

You misunderstood my post. I did not imply to go blabbing another person’s information without their permission or what you promised to keep secret.

I stated: Have you ever noticed that some people always seem to know it all? The truth is, no single person has all the pieces to the puzzle. Someone you can trust may hold the final piece in solving this complex mystery.

buscar

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

You are so correct, which is one of the reasons behind the camp out coming up. Putting people together who might form friendships and put teams together working towards a common goal.

Lot's of people going it alone out there. Put that team pulling one wagon and you can haul some freight.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[sluicebox]

All,

Just wondering if it might be possible that the LDM, or any single mine, might be the source of the multiple types of gold/quartz or gold/silver ore. Rather than assuming that multiple types of gold/quartz came from different mines, is it possible that they all came from the same mine. For example, could one mine produce white, rose, and smokey quartz in the same vein of gold/quartz ore? Regards, Sluicebox

[Joe Ribaudo]

Sluicebox,

I would expect to hear from someone like Late49er, Dr. Glover, AZDave or LDM on your question.

Not knowing anything (formal) about rocks, I have a few questions myself:

While in the field, have you noticed much in the way of "multiple" occurrences of "white, rose and smokey quartz" in one place?

Is there any way to get accurate provenancing from such a select and small sampling as the "ore" that Dr. Glover had tested?

Does the accepted description of the Waltz "outcropping" suggest a single event or multiple events in it's formation? How would that effect the ore itself?

Would the methods used by Dr. Glover's team be accepted as "scientific provenancing" today?

Why is it that Ron Feldman and Dr. Glover seem reluctant to join this topic, meaning the Kochera ore?

It would seem that, in order to determine a "match" for the geological origin of any of the samples available, there would need to be ore taken, and authenticated, from a mine or outcropping in the range. At this point, as far as I know, there is no known source of silver or gold ore from the area in question. Finding ore laying on top of the ground or in old, rotten leather bags, would not qualify as positive proof that it came from the Supes. I believe even less can be determined from a piece of jewelry, or a "matchbox", without ore from a know mine in the Superstitions.

The above is all opinion so I could, of course, be wrong.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Knun]

Well Joe, it seems as though the Kochera story was released simply for a "short story" and a book footnote. Not to be discussed openly.

[Joe Ribaudo]

knun,

You could be correct. On the other hand, it may be that some of their information came with a price, such as, not making everything they are told public. I would accept that as a good reason for not discussing the topic in depth.

There are many other good reasons I can think of, but most of them seem shallow if you are talking to a friend you trust. Perhaps you should try asking a stranger.

For me, my interest in the Kochera story was non-existant prior to it being discussed here. It has only slightly increased because of this topic.
A single piece of "float" does not a silver mine make. I doubt it would actually qualify as "float'. If it was found, as advertised, it seems much more likely that Buscar's idea of it being dropped fits a little better.

Respectfully,

Joe

[late49er]

Sluicebox,

From where I sit the possibility that a single mine could produce different types of ore is always a distinct possiblity if there are multiple events producing the deposit and there are adequate fractures, faults or shear zones to accomodate the mineralizing solutions. In addition the deeper the mine goes the elements in the deposit would also be affected as the deposit moved from a zone of oxidation to a sulfide zone. Also this issue depends on exactly what one means a deposit to be. For example the Comstock lode was arguably a single deposit, but its many mines produced very distinctive ores. I am probably over my head here.

Having said that my limited experience on the ground in the Superstitutions suggest that you are probably looking at deposits with signatures that are pretty distinctive. This is driven by the geology and the limited way these deposits have been worked. These are not mines that have been developed to any great depth. The Mexicans, it seemed to me, were simply cherry picking what they could given their level of technology.

Joe,

It seems to me you have an excellent point about the samples. Until someone produces a mine that one can obtain samples and test, any data is basically second hand. Essentially what one has is a comparison of three pieces of ore that may have come from the Superstitutions and may not have. Having said that it seems to me that Glover has done an excellent job given the material he has to work with. Also there is a substantial amount of proof these samples did in fact come from the Superstituions. Absolute proof no.

I believe the Waltz outcropping is a single event. Being a single event the ore would be easier to distinguish.

It does present an interesting dilema. If someone were to locate the LDM and do ore analysis that turned out to be completely different than the three samples where would you go from there. Guess one would perhaps need something from the mine itself to prove the point. Maybe the Dutchman carving a personal note on a cross beam with his name would help. Perhaps an old German mining saying.

Let me say I am only a rockhound.

On another subject how is the weather down there. Been nice up here. Just finished up with Hot August Nights, quite the event for car buffs.

Regards,


Late 49er

[buscar]

Hello Folks

The only promising opinion as to whether or not the gold/silver ore was found in the said area; one would have visited the region and compare the ore with quartz found there.

Is it possible that quartz from another area altogether in its appearance bear a resemblance to that of the Superstitions?


buscar

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Everyone,

I do not remember who started this.

Different layers of the same vein could "produce" different quartz all within six inches width. But, for example, only three inches may be producing gold. Also, if you are following a vein into the mountain by tunnel, you are probably following a fault that has a consistant ore until their is a cross dike. At which time many things are possible; shearing, much clay from geologic movement, both faults mixing making no structure to follow. The gold in the fault you are following will be shot through the crossing, making more material to move and the ore different. Once past the cross dike, the main fault may not be the same. It may have stopped or just disappeared from shearing. The gold in the cross dike, remember - if any, I would guess has to be close to the same. Cross dikes are a good place for gold. I believe, because their is less pressure and if given the right chemistry gold will fall out. Also, from secondary deposit. If you are following sulfides down a shaft, the ore is probably going to stay the same. It should pinch and pocket. Always keeping the same quartz and mineral as you descend the dike. It is still possible to run into other faults. My guess is that anything is possible in nature. Usually quartz outcroppings are on top of mountains. It does not erode as fast as granite, dacite, or basalt. It is usually "bull quartz", without mineral. I would guess, because the minerals have been washed down the canyon just as the host material. I believe gold ore said to be from the L.D.M. is from one source in the mine, wether it be from following a fault or "down on" a fault or dike. You have to remember, if the L.D.M. is true to lore, gold like that is very rare and probably will not be repeated in the same mine at a different structure five to one hundred feet away. Their are exceptions as in going down on a large cross dike like the Mormon Stope of the Mammoth Mine where it seemed gold was everywhere. It is theorized the gold came from the south and deposited there because everything was just right. I have been in many mines, but I am no geologist. I do know every area is different, and even a studied geologist has a learning curve to each of those places.
Although Glovers book is not in front of me I believe he wrote Kochera's ore could be from the same geologic event. By reading Glover, I believe the ore is from a mine close to the the L.D.M. But, What is its fingerprint? What is the matchbox's fingerprint? Does Glover Know? I did not read it in his book, but maybe I missed it? Where is the fingerprints? Does he have the fingerprint of the gold, quartz, host?

Good Topic,

Jesse

[bill711]

JJ that was a very good educational reply. Thank,s Bill

[bill711]

I have read old tales about a farmer who found an old mine in the eastern Sup,s { a couple of canyon,s over from La Barge} Who carried his silver out in a wagon? This event was supposed to have been witnessed by a prospecter who never found where he got it from after the farmer moved away. He did find a few float,s small pieces around a old cabin the farmer used when he was in there. ANother story I have read was where 2 men found a ledge of silver in the middle of a creek BUT the were not equiped to deal with it then. BUT when they made it back with impliments to work it, They found where it had fooded real bad and the ledge was either covered up or washed away. So no dice there for them. Then there is the silver claim in WARD,S BOOK about the claim of the silver mining men over on a creek that he went and looked at one time...This just for what it,s worth... Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

Did you know that this story makes two (2) friends of Tracy's that have found a piece of silver ore in the same location? Ernie Provence would have been the first one, and that would have been many years ago.

It certainly would be interesting to know, a little more precisely, where Glen found this one. I am familiar with the general location of a few outcropings, like you mention.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[ILoveJoeRibaudo]

Thank you Joe for that information. It is very interesting and good. That last post was a pleasure to read. Please post more often. You seem to be slowing down a little.

ILoveJoeRibaudo

[buscar]

Hello Folks

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buscar