Gold in the Superstitions.
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dutch elm disease
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are there more
Hayward was one of 15 men that went and removed gold in 1942, then what happened to the other men that took part with him? Did they all die of "the curse"? $50,000 divided by 15 men is just alittle over $3000 a piece. I know that was quite a chunk of money in 1942, but still not enough to retire on. Maybe that is why he was going back to school 18 years later in 1960. Everyone seems to focus on Hayward, but what of the rest of the bunch. Hayward was the only one to have gotten drunk and told the story? Maybe the other 14 had a change of heart and put their share of the gold back. Just something to ponder.
Welcome back LDM...nice to get this discussion back on track!
thanks,
kk
Welcome back LDM...nice to get this discussion back on track!
thanks,
kk
Re: Cochera.
LDMLDM wrote:DED,
That is a good observation, I wonder that myself if Conatsers reference wasn't the same or a variation of that incident. Good deductive reasoning !
A shame the author is no longer with us to check her source and what she had to say about that particular passage.
LDM
I couldn't help but silently smile to myself when I read this.
I attempted to talk to Shirley (aka: Estee Conatser) about this very thing. If I am reading you correctly, you are referring to a situation she described in her book and ended it with a statement that the individuals were still living and she could say no more about the subject.
I got her to admit that all of the individuals involved were no longer living (at the time I talked to her, around 1995 or 96 if I remember correctly) but she would still not expand a single word on the subject beyond what was in her book.
I got the feeling she had taken a real beating in some way for publishing that information and was not under any circumstances going to reopen that bag of worms.
On other subjects, she was very open and easy to talk to. She was a delightful and enthusiastic Dutch Hunter and enjoyed discussing the subject right up until the end.
redison
Last edited by redison on Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gold in the Sup,s
Dr Glover; Thank GOD that you got back and had a WORD with the boys about their NAUGHTYNESS while you were gone! They just run amuck , They wouldn,t behave while you were out... 
bill 
bill -
dutch elm disease
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ldm,
my impression at the time, and probabley still is ,is that conatsers tale was more likely than not just a "filler". there a great deal about the kochera story that can ring true...theres an equal amount that doesnt.the story has been clouded somewhat,but not i feel by people with ulterior or sinister motives.im quite impressed by your research and would like to hear more. i dont feel theres anything about this story that cant be aired on a public forum. the "spirit world" might of course think differently
my impression at the time, and probabley still is ,is that conatsers tale was more likely than not just a "filler". there a great deal about the kochera story that can ring true...theres an equal amount that doesnt.the story has been clouded somewhat,but not i feel by people with ulterior or sinister motives.im quite impressed by your research and would like to hear more. i dont feel theres anything about this story that cant be aired on a public forum. the "spirit world" might of course think differently
Kochera's map
It's rather interesting that Haywood was Yavapai and ended up in the pit with his associates in'42, especially when you consider Apache relations and other legends.
Considering Joseph Kochera and family "left" San Carlos a few years before is it a stretch to think that there was a connection prior to Wisconsin? I think not.
Anyone have an idea as to why John Kochera would have taken Richard Peck, "Robert S. Jacobs," or John Spangler into his confidence to the point where Peck and Jacobs ended up with copies of Haywood's map. And this occured during the heyday of Kochera's search.
Considering Joseph Kochera and family "left" San Carlos a few years before is it a stretch to think that there was a connection prior to Wisconsin? I think not.
Anyone have an idea as to why John Kochera would have taken Richard Peck, "Robert S. Jacobs," or John Spangler into his confidence to the point where Peck and Jacobs ended up with copies of Haywood's map. And this occured during the heyday of Kochera's search.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Good Points
Knun,
That's a great piece of detective work. All of your point are more than valid. The only nit I would pick would be the name "Jacobs" as opposed to Jake's actual last name of Jacob. Not to worry, as many people who you would think would know better, have made the same mistake. Tom Kollenborn and Joe Ribaudo are the first two to come to my mind.
The "Yavapais" portion of your post may not be as pertinent as one would first think.
The name "Yavapais" is actually a bit of a misnomer. What are generally called Yavapais, are in reality a group of Upper Yuman speaking peoples. They are four distinct tribes: Tolkepayas, Wipukepas, Kwevkepayas and Yavapes.
The reason this is important to your post, is because not all of these tribes were enemy's of all Apaches. The "Yavapais" and the Tonto Apache were very close, both in territory and relationships. The intermarriage between them was so common and over such a long period of time, that the blood lines became, almost, one.
This was the reasoning for my saying the Yavapais were Apache. At what point is one tribe absorbed, or two peoples for that matter, to the extent that they lose their original identities?
You need to look no farther than the the Yavapais Nation of today, to have their opinion.
Your post will definitely start some wheels turning. Nice work.
Respectfully,
Joe
That's a great piece of detective work. All of your point are more than valid. The only nit I would pick would be the name "Jacobs" as opposed to Jake's actual last name of Jacob. Not to worry, as many people who you would think would know better, have made the same mistake. Tom Kollenborn and Joe Ribaudo are the first two to come to my mind.
The "Yavapais" portion of your post may not be as pertinent as one would first think.
The name "Yavapais" is actually a bit of a misnomer. What are generally called Yavapais, are in reality a group of Upper Yuman speaking peoples. They are four distinct tribes: Tolkepayas, Wipukepas, Kwevkepayas and Yavapes.
The reason this is important to your post, is because not all of these tribes were enemy's of all Apaches. The "Yavapais" and the Tonto Apache were very close, both in territory and relationships. The intermarriage between them was so common and over such a long period of time, that the blood lines became, almost, one.
This was the reasoning for my saying the Yavapais were Apache. At what point is one tribe absorbed, or two peoples for that matter, to the extent that they lose their original identities?
You need to look no farther than the the Yavapais Nation of today, to have their opinion.
Your post will definitely start some wheels turning. Nice work.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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But....
LDM,
Great post, but......
Intermarriage between the "Yavapais" and the Tonto Apache began long before San Carlos. For the most part, these tribes were bilingual.
What was removed from the ground, placed in a leather bag, and then "lost" on the trail, was in no way indicative of the value of the ore from whatever mine it came from. If you could remove a ton of exactly what was found on the trail, that would be the richest gold mine in the world. Right now, that title is being held by a mine that produces 2.26 ounces of gold per ton. As you noted, the ore was "concentrate". One would need to know how much "trash rock" was removed from the samples to determine the worth of the real per ton value.
All of my information on Robert Jacob comes from other sources. I never met the man. Any insight I might provide is strictly second or worse hand. That does not mean I have said anything that might not be true. I have, what I consider, very good sources.
There are people on this site, who knew the man personallly, and have a much better understanding of the type of man he was.
It is not unlikely that Haywood was part Apache. It is even possible that he was Apache-Yavapais.
Respectfullly,
Joe
Great post, but......
Intermarriage between the "Yavapais" and the Tonto Apache began long before San Carlos. For the most part, these tribes were bilingual.
What was removed from the ground, placed in a leather bag, and then "lost" on the trail, was in no way indicative of the value of the ore from whatever mine it came from. If you could remove a ton of exactly what was found on the trail, that would be the richest gold mine in the world. Right now, that title is being held by a mine that produces 2.26 ounces of gold per ton. As you noted, the ore was "concentrate". One would need to know how much "trash rock" was removed from the samples to determine the worth of the real per ton value.
All of my information on Robert Jacob comes from other sources. I never met the man. Any insight I might provide is strictly second or worse hand. That does not mean I have said anything that might not be true. I have, what I consider, very good sources.
There are people on this site, who knew the man personallly, and have a much better understanding of the type of man he was.
It is not unlikely that Haywood was part Apache. It is even possible that he was Apache-Yavapais.
Respectfullly,
Joe