Just wondering if someone could refresh my memory on the story of the mine being covered? Is Dick Holmes the only source of that story? Seems like I remember Waltz telling Julia (via Sims Ely) that he only covered the vertical tunnel. This seems to be the real wedge that separates the Holmes and the Petrasch "camps".
Regards, Sluicebox
A newb's question
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Cover-up
Sluicebox,
I believe you have it right.
If you consider the description of the area the mine was located in, the size of the pits, according to Bark and the age of Waltz, you might come to doubt the story of Waltz covering the mine.
It seems probable that everyone concerned with the story lied, to some extent. Since Julia had giiven up on the search, and her story matched Rhineys, one would think Bark's rendition would be the most accurate.
So much of the Holmes story, concerning Waltz, is fiction and he denied that it was his story for quite a while. Most everyone believes that Dick Holmes stole the gold from Julia's home. But surely he would never tell a lie.
Respectffully,
Joe
I believe you have it right.
If you consider the description of the area the mine was located in, the size of the pits, according to Bark and the age of Waltz, you might come to doubt the story of Waltz covering the mine.
It seems probable that everyone concerned with the story lied, to some extent. Since Julia had giiven up on the search, and her story matched Rhineys, one would think Bark's rendition would be the most accurate.
So much of the Holmes story, concerning Waltz, is fiction and he denied that it was his story for quite a while. Most everyone believes that Dick Holmes stole the gold from Julia's home. But surely he would never tell a lie.
Respectffully,
Joe
Is the mine covered?
Sluicebox,
You bring up a question in which I have invested a lot of time searching for an answer. To my knowledge, the only other reference that suggests the LDM might be covered or backfilled is the Apache Jack story about how he, at a young age worked for three moons with a group of squaws covering all of the mines, except one that was so high up and hard to get to that they thought no white man would ever find it.
I am most comfortable with the idea (As Sims Ely seemed to believe) that the one mine that was left open is the LDM, and as Aurum stated earlier, it is in an area that is covered by such dense brush and trees that you would only see it if you were standing right at the entrance to it.
I’m glad you brought this up Sluice, maybe someone else knows of another reference that I missed or overlooked.
redison
You bring up a question in which I have invested a lot of time searching for an answer. To my knowledge, the only other reference that suggests the LDM might be covered or backfilled is the Apache Jack story about how he, at a young age worked for three moons with a group of squaws covering all of the mines, except one that was so high up and hard to get to that they thought no white man would ever find it.
I am most comfortable with the idea (As Sims Ely seemed to believe) that the one mine that was left open is the LDM, and as Aurum stated earlier, it is in an area that is covered by such dense brush and trees that you would only see it if you were standing right at the entrance to it.
I’m glad you brought this up Sluice, maybe someone else knows of another reference that I missed or overlooked.
redison
covered mine?
The reason I brought up the covered mine question again is because I thought I remembered another story about it being covered. I just couldn't remember where I read it. I found it in Corbin's "Bible", where she is telling the Walter Gassler story. Gassler talks about the mine being covered by Indian women (page 325). No exact time frame is given, but I assume it must have been after the Dutchman's last trip to the mine if it is supposed to fit with the rest of the story about not being able to find the mine because it is buried. I remember reading other accounts of Indian woman covering the mines, but in the other accounts, the LDM was the only one NOT covered. Was gessler mixing up the Indian burial stories and time frames? Regards, Sluicebox
Redison and Wiz make some valid points. Heres a timeline that concerns the LDM that might help some. I am doing it from menory, so might have something out of whack...here goes...
1864 Massacre of Mexican Miners in what we call the Massacre Grounds today. After this event most of the mines are covered over by Apache.
1866 William Edwards and Joe Green find the massacre site. Edwards interest is peaked.
1867-68 Edwards searches for the source of whatever ore he has found. He uncovers a tunnel, but does NOT mention any pits/shafts.
1869-1873 Jacob Waltz finds the LDM, probably works it off and on until the end of the 70s.
1884 Two soldiers find a tunnel and 2 shafts. Along with a rich mine dump.
1885 Ditto for Joe Deering.
1887-88 John Reed visits the LDM with his father. It is covered over with logs, which they uncover.
1889 to present day. The mine, tunnel, dump etc vanish into thin air.
Well gotta run for abit. I will speculate on what the above means in the next post.
P
1864 Massacre of Mexican Miners in what we call the Massacre Grounds today. After this event most of the mines are covered over by Apache.
1866 William Edwards and Joe Green find the massacre site. Edwards interest is peaked.
1867-68 Edwards searches for the source of whatever ore he has found. He uncovers a tunnel, but does NOT mention any pits/shafts.
1869-1873 Jacob Waltz finds the LDM, probably works it off and on until the end of the 70s.
1884 Two soldiers find a tunnel and 2 shafts. Along with a rich mine dump.
1885 Ditto for Joe Deering.
1887-88 John Reed visits the LDM with his father. It is covered over with logs, which they uncover.
1889 to present day. The mine, tunnel, dump etc vanish into thin air.
Well gotta run for abit. I will speculate on what the above means in the next post.
P
Lets see, where was I.....
1864-65 The mines and dumps are buried by Apache. Did they leave one open because they thought it wouldnt be found? Maybe, but I tend to doubt it. I believe that the only thing that would be near impossible for the Apache to hide would be the network (yes network for all you single trail fans) of trails. Some of the very old trails still exist in places..including THE military trail (yes that one). Right where Waltz said it was.
1867-68 Edwards explores some of the mined areas extensively, even uncovering a hidden tunnel. But before he can zero in on and work one particular area, he is run off by Apache.
circa 1868-69 Some of the Mexican Miners have returned in secret. The last mine uncovered was so rich that they just wont stay away, Indians be damned. They uncover and work the LDM in secret and in very small groups.
1869-70 The Waltz stumbles, bumbles, tracks or somehow or other finds these fellows working the LDM. He knocks them off (with or without a partner and maybe or maybe not by accident) and works the mine in secret for a number of years.
circa 1879 Waltz covers the mine and tunnel. Turns out he didnt do such a good job.
1884 The mine site is found. The wall has settled and the shafts have sunken in.
1885 Ditto.
1885-86 Waltz hears about both the Soldiers and then Deering. He makes a final trip into the mtns and this time covers over the mine properly. (and no he didnt drag timbers from the present day Horse Country to the LDM site. Timber was (and is) plentiful near the mine site. It took some doing, but this time he managed to cover it for good (or so he thought).
1887-88 The LDM is uncovered once again by Reed and co. Whether or not they covered it up again I do not know.
Now begins a 30 year period in which the mine could be found. Problem then was folks were looking in the wrong place. By the end of WWI the window of opportunity closed and the chances of finding the mine dwindled to about zero.
NOTE: The above is pure speculation. It is not a "fact". Just my ravings on a day in which I have some free time. I am most likely wrong (but I doubt it).
P
1864-65 The mines and dumps are buried by Apache. Did they leave one open because they thought it wouldnt be found? Maybe, but I tend to doubt it. I believe that the only thing that would be near impossible for the Apache to hide would be the network (yes network for all you single trail fans) of trails. Some of the very old trails still exist in places..including THE military trail (yes that one). Right where Waltz said it was.
1867-68 Edwards explores some of the mined areas extensively, even uncovering a hidden tunnel. But before he can zero in on and work one particular area, he is run off by Apache.
circa 1868-69 Some of the Mexican Miners have returned in secret. The last mine uncovered was so rich that they just wont stay away, Indians be damned. They uncover and work the LDM in secret and in very small groups.
1869-70 The Waltz stumbles, bumbles, tracks or somehow or other finds these fellows working the LDM. He knocks them off (with or without a partner and maybe or maybe not by accident) and works the mine in secret for a number of years.
circa 1879 Waltz covers the mine and tunnel. Turns out he didnt do such a good job.
1884 The mine site is found. The wall has settled and the shafts have sunken in.
1885 Ditto.
1885-86 Waltz hears about both the Soldiers and then Deering. He makes a final trip into the mtns and this time covers over the mine properly. (and no he didnt drag timbers from the present day Horse Country to the LDM site. Timber was (and is) plentiful near the mine site. It took some doing, but this time he managed to cover it for good (or so he thought).
1887-88 The LDM is uncovered once again by Reed and co. Whether or not they covered it up again I do not know.
Now begins a 30 year period in which the mine could be found. Problem then was folks were looking in the wrong place. By the end of WWI the window of opportunity closed and the chances of finding the mine dwindled to about zero.
NOTE: The above is pure speculation. It is not a "fact". Just my ravings on a day in which I have some free time. I am most likely wrong (but I doubt it).
P
TGH,
Enjoyed reading your post.
Since we both agree that the vein system of which the LDM is a part can be described as a honeycomb, perhaps the best way to access the LDM is a rear door sorta speak.
Furthermore perhaps the various descriptions of the LDM are really just different manifestations of the same system.
By the way the relationship between the coordinates was always a matter of the heart 1847.
Not sure why you got beat up for the hidden waterfall reference. It really is, in my opinion, the most importent close in clue to the mesothermal system referred to as the LDM.
Regards,
Late 49er
Enjoyed reading your post.
Since we both agree that the vein system of which the LDM is a part can be described as a honeycomb, perhaps the best way to access the LDM is a rear door sorta speak.
Furthermore perhaps the various descriptions of the LDM are really just different manifestations of the same system.
By the way the relationship between the coordinates was always a matter of the heart 1847.
Not sure why you got beat up for the hidden waterfall reference. It really is, in my opinion, the most importent close in clue to the mesothermal system referred to as the LDM.
Regards,
Late 49er
Late49er
You are on the money for the most part. I agree completly with the honeycomb analogy. Multiple workings explain much.
Wasnt beaten up over the hidden waterfall. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. The significance of the waterfall is much greater than folks think. Some might say it is more important than the LDM itself.
I tend to agree.
P
You are on the money for the most part. I agree completly with the honeycomb analogy. Multiple workings explain much.
Wasnt beaten up over the hidden waterfall. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. The significance of the waterfall is much greater than folks think. Some might say it is more important than the LDM itself.
I tend to agree.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Heart?
Late,
Peter believes the Stone Maps are a hoax. That being the case, the 1847 date and the heart would have no relevance for him.
Respectfully,
Joe
Peter believes the Stone Maps are a hoax. That being the case, the 1847 date and the heart would have no relevance for him.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Back To Gossan's
Late,
You seem to be working your way back to a gossan. It seems to me, that if you and Peter are correct and are that close to the LDM, a metal detector would be in order. If you are looking for a visable sign, would petzite be a possibility?
If your "hidden waterfall" is volcanic in formation, which seems probable in the Superstitions, much of the "information" concerning the make-up of the LDM starts to make sense. The problem is that it probably holds true for much of the range.
Arid regions, such as the Superstitions generally have much deeper weathered zones then places with more humid conditions. If that is true, and I believe it is, there should be secondary deposits found below the original outcropping. Those would remain untouched at this time. Anyone bright enough to find them, would also have found the mine.
Even if the pits have been covered over, and they are in a small valley or depression, there would still be secondary deposits in the depression.
Metal detector.
Respectfully,
Joe
You seem to be working your way back to a gossan. It seems to me, that if you and Peter are correct and are that close to the LDM, a metal detector would be in order. If you are looking for a visable sign, would petzite be a possibility?
If your "hidden waterfall" is volcanic in formation, which seems probable in the Superstitions, much of the "information" concerning the make-up of the LDM starts to make sense. The problem is that it probably holds true for much of the range.
Arid regions, such as the Superstitions generally have much deeper weathered zones then places with more humid conditions. If that is true, and I believe it is, there should be secondary deposits found below the original outcropping. Those would remain untouched at this time. Anyone bright enough to find them, would also have found the mine.
Even if the pits have been covered over, and they are in a small valley or depression, there would still be secondary deposits in the depression.
Metal detector.
Respectfully,
Joe
timber? Shafts?
If in fact the shafts were covered with timbers then with dirt I would think that the timbers would have rotten thru after 100 years of being buired. Just lay a board on the ground and leave it for several mounths and then turn it over and look at the damage it has taken. Phone poles are treated and then placed 8 to 12 feed in the ground and they rot over time. If the pits/shafts were covered with timbers then dirt I would think that anything or anyone walking over them would be in for the ride of a lifetime. Just my thoughts.
Hound dog
be gentle New B
Hound dog
be gentle New B
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wood
H.D.,
I should think that Jesse could enlighten us as to how long green wood lasts, buried in the Superstitions.
Respectfully,
Joe
I should think that Jesse could enlighten us as to how long green wood lasts, buried in the Superstitions.
Respectfully,
Joe
John Reed?
TGH, Where can I read more about the part of your scenario where John Reed and co. find and uncover the mine in 1887-88. I haven't heard that one yet, or if I have, I don't remember it. Thanks, Sluicebox
azdave35
Whether Waltz found it on his own or not, somebody found gold there, and if it was found and lost, it can be found again. Interesting about the man who had so many claims which had been covered by Indians. He found 19 mines in over 20 years, so that means he found on average 1 mine in a little over 1 year. To me that says the Indians didn't do that great of a job hiding the mines.
Aurum also posted what he's seen, and again what I take from that is someone went to a lot of trouble to hide a mine, and Aurum found it anyway.
Whether Waltz found it on his own or not, somebody found gold there, and if it was found and lost, it can be found again. Interesting about the man who had so many claims which had been covered by Indians. He found 19 mines in over 20 years, so that means he found on average 1 mine in a little over 1 year. To me that says the Indians didn't do that great of a job hiding the mines.
Aurum also posted what he's seen, and again what I take from that is someone went to a lot of trouble to hide a mine, and Aurum found it anyway.
Most of the world's problems are caused by people who take themselves too seriously.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Best Chance
Skeelos and Dave,
If you believe that the Two Soldiers and John Deering found the LDM, what person who searched after they died, had the best chance to find the mine and why?
Respectfully,
Joe
If you believe that the Two Soldiers and John Deering found the LDM, what person who searched after they died, had the best chance to find the mine and why?
Respectfully,
Joe
On the second page of this thread, about 1/3 of the way down Aurum said:azdave35 wrote:aurum found what anyway?
Aurum said "...carried a distance away from a mine..." To me that implies he may also have found the associated mine, though it doesn't necessarily mean that he did. However, whether he found a mine or found only the tailings doesn't really matter to my take on it. What is clear to me is that Aurum found something that someone had tried to hide. Just as you related that someone had found 19 hidden mines over a 20+ year span. To me that is an indication that in general, efforts to hide mines and tailings are far from perfect.One of the most interesting things I have seen in the Superstitions is an enormous amount of mined rock carried a distance away from a mine and dumped in a fault seam then covered over with surface rock, dirt and brush in an obvious effort to hide it. The amount of work it took to carry this mined rock and conceal it was more effort than it probably took to dig the mine itself. Someone(s) at one time went to a lot of trouble to keep the mines location a secret.
Most of the world's problems are caused by people who take themselves too seriously.
Re: Best Chance
Joe,Joe Ribaudo wrote:Skeelos and Dave,
If you believe that the Two Soldiers and John Deering found the LDM, what person who searched after they died, had the best chance to find the mine and why?
I don't know if they did find the LDM. I'm not even sure what the LDM really is. I think Waltz had a source of gold in the SMs, whether that was an old Jesuit/Peralta mine/cache or a strike he made all on his own or something else entirely.
I really can't answer your question Joe, the plain fact is that I'm still too ignorant of the subject as a whole, which by the way is not the same thing as being stupid, though I've been called both... and worse.
Most of the world's problems are caused by people who take themselves too seriously.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Correct
Skeelos,
You are correct in your definition of "ignorant". I am guessing you are much less "ignorant" then you are saying. I have a pretty good idea who you are, at least I suspect.
Despite my suspicions you can see that I am still being respectfull, and that will not change, from my end of the conversation.
The descriptions in both stories make their finds (likely) the LDM. That assumes both stories are not works of fiction using real players. If they did find the LDM, there are some basic conclusions that can be assumed by the history that followed.
Respectfully,
Joe
You are correct in your definition of "ignorant". I am guessing you are much less "ignorant" then you are saying. I have a pretty good idea who you are, at least I suspect.
Despite my suspicions you can see that I am still being respectfull, and that will not change, from my end of the conversation.
The descriptions in both stories make their finds (likely) the LDM. That assumes both stories are not works of fiction using real players. If they did find the LDM, there are some basic conclusions that can be assumed by the history that followed.
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: Correct
Joe,
The extent of my knowledge of the LDM is nothing more than what I have said, so for you to think otherwise is a nice compliment on my posts thus far. Well, that’s how I’m going to take it anyway.
I have been reading what I can online, and I am taking in what I can through osmosis just to give me a general basis rather than making a concerted effort to sift and sort all the information. When I’ve had a chance to digest the books I ordered, I might try to start putting some things together or I might just abandon the whole thing. I have many questions, but I’ve restrained myself from asking them because for one thing, I don’t want to look like a fool and for another I don’t want to annoy everyone with a flood of questions.
You can rest easy and lay aside your suspicions about who I am. While it is true that I am quite capable of assuming different aliases in an online forum, I assure you that I have not done so here. If you and I have encountered each other, either in real life or on some other online forum, it would be a coincidence of staggering proportion. Here’s the rub. If I am someone you know (of) and I am using skeelos as a disguise and wanted to continue that disguise, what in this post would I say any differently? Nothing I suppose.
The extent of my knowledge of the LDM is nothing more than what I have said, so for you to think otherwise is a nice compliment on my posts thus far. Well, that’s how I’m going to take it anyway.
I have been reading what I can online, and I am taking in what I can through osmosis just to give me a general basis rather than making a concerted effort to sift and sort all the information. When I’ve had a chance to digest the books I ordered, I might try to start putting some things together or I might just abandon the whole thing. I have many questions, but I’ve restrained myself from asking them because for one thing, I don’t want to look like a fool and for another I don’t want to annoy everyone with a flood of questions.You can rest easy and lay aside your suspicions about who I am. While it is true that I am quite capable of assuming different aliases in an online forum, I assure you that I have not done so here. If you and I have encountered each other, either in real life or on some other online forum, it would be a coincidence of staggering proportion. Here’s the rub. If I am someone you know (of) and I am using skeelos as a disguise and wanted to continue that disguise, what in this post would I say any differently? Nothing I suppose.
Thank you. You’ll get no worse from me, though I’d probably use the word civil rather than respectful, but that’s probably due more to semantics than anything else.Despite my suspicions you can see that I am still being respectfull, and that will not change, from my end of the conversation.
Most of the world's problems are caused by people who take themselves too seriously.