Joe,
I do not believe Dick was entitled to the mine. That was someone elses by the late 70's and if Dick stuck his nose in it, it would have been shot off. Since the ore was under Jacobs bed and not in the mountains, Dick was able to get away with it.
Do you not remember Dick and Julias court case over the ore?
I may be wrong but it is fun to explore these thoughts.
Jesse
Three in one
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wern't There
Jesse,
That case was a few years before my time.
Not every thought that pops into someones head deserves exploration.
Of course, that may not apply to you. 
Hope all is well. We are not getting much "HEAT" information lately.
Respectfully,
Joe
That case was a few years before my time.
Not every thought that pops into someones head deserves exploration.
Of course, that may not apply to you. Hope all is well. We are not getting much "HEAT" information lately.
Respectfully,
Joe
Recent publications
Why would you be reading recent publications Joe?
I thought you had everything all figured out and were solidly planted in the "Busca El Triangle" camp?
That one doesn't even pass the Giggle test!
I thought you had everything all figured out and were solidly planted in the "Busca El Triangle" camp?
That one doesn't even pass the Giggle test!
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Joe Ribaudo
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All Figured Out
redison,
I do have "it all figured out". I just like to read.
Something tells me you do giggle a lot. Not surprisng at all.
Respectfully,
Joe
I do have "it all figured out". I just like to read.
Something tells me you do giggle a lot. Not surprisng at all.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Source?
Roger,
"This is the exact trail that Julia and Rhiney tried to follow on their first trip into the Supers."
Is there a source for that statement of "fact"?
Respectfully,
Joe
"This is the exact trail that Julia and Rhiney tried to follow on their first trip into the Supers."
Is there a source for that statement of "fact"?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Redison
Were you talking about me in code?
My thoughts do have reason. Just entertain the thought that someone other than Jacob had control of the L.D.M. during and after the late 70s and that any trips into the mountains made by Jacob would be to secretly take caches he left behind.
Joe,
I may be wrong about Dick being a "long time" friend of Jacobs. I do not know when they met. Do you? But surely, I believe they were good friends. In all rights, Julia or the Petrasches should have been given the ore, but that is not the way things worked. They were simply not high enough in society.
We are still waiting for dates on the timbers. As soon as we know, you will know.
Jesse
Were you talking about me in code?
My thoughts do have reason. Just entertain the thought that someone other than Jacob had control of the L.D.M. during and after the late 70s and that any trips into the mountains made by Jacob would be to secretly take caches he left behind.
Joe,
I may be wrong about Dick being a "long time" friend of Jacobs. I do not know when they met. Do you? But surely, I believe they were good friends. In all rights, Julia or the Petrasches should have been given the ore, but that is not the way things worked. They were simply not high enough in society.
We are still waiting for dates on the timbers. As soon as we know, you will know.
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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Code Talking
redison,
Perhaps Jesse thinks he is one of your secret sources. Is that possible?
Have you been trying to get in tight with Jesse, only using another name?
Any time you start spinning these elaborate webs, it just gets harder and harder to keep the whole thing hanging from the rafters.
No need to take any of this personally. No one is actually "after you".
Like Dick Holmes, there are a lot of people who like you. The truth goes a long way in keeping things on an even keel here.
Was the "Busca El Triangle camp" some kind of code?
How's my relationship with Jim Hatt comming along? Is he warming up to me yet?
Respectfully,
Joe
Perhaps Jesse thinks he is one of your secret sources. Is that possible?
Have you been trying to get in tight with Jesse, only using another name?
Any time you start spinning these elaborate webs, it just gets harder and harder to keep the whole thing hanging from the rafters.
No need to take any of this personally. No one is actually "after you".
Like Dick Holmes, there are a lot of people who like you. The truth goes a long way in keeping things on an even keel here.
Was the "Busca El Triangle camp" some kind of code?
How's my relationship with Jim Hatt comming along? Is he warming up to me yet?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Tortilla Creek
Peter,
Is there a place where the rest of us can find the Jacob Waltz instructions to Julia and Rhiney to go to his mine via "Tortilla Creek"? I am not home
right now, but would like to refresh my mind on this.
I don't know that Dick Holmes was a "rascal", but I still wonder what would have transpired if there had been a confrontation with Waltz at the mine.
If he knew Waltz was working the mine, it would be no different than "claim jumping". I don't know how they looked at that back in New York, but it received the same reception as horse thieving out here.
No doubt a New York lawyer would explain the legal aspects of ownership to Mr. Waltz, and everyone would "be happy". I doubt Holmes cared if Waltz had a legal claim or not. Another old prospector would just disappear in the desert. Kinda like something of value disappearing from a private residence. Holmes would just be "first in line".
That is a cool "excerise" though. Why isn't the LDM on Black Mountain? I should think you would have to know where it is, before you could say where it isn't. You could, of course, say it is not in your back yard, but Black Mountain has a lot of dirt to check for a covered over mine.
Sometimes when you hit a number it brings up an "Emoticon". That's computers.
All kidding aside, it's good to see you posting again.
Respectfully,
Joe
Is there a place where the rest of us can find the Jacob Waltz instructions to Julia and Rhiney to go to his mine via "Tortilla Creek"? I am not home
right now, but would like to refresh my mind on this.
I don't know that Dick Holmes was a "rascal", but I still wonder what would have transpired if there had been a confrontation with Waltz at the mine.
If he knew Waltz was working the mine, it would be no different than "claim jumping". I don't know how they looked at that back in New York, but it received the same reception as horse thieving out here.
No doubt a New York lawyer would explain the legal aspects of ownership to Mr. Waltz, and everyone would "be happy".
I doubt Holmes cared if Waltz had a legal claim or not. Another old prospector would just disappear in the desert. Kinda like something of value disappearing from a private residence. Holmes would just be "first in line". That is a cool "excerise" though. Why isn't the LDM on Black Mountain? I should think you would have to know where it is, before you could say where it isn't. You could, of course, say it is not in your back yard, but Black Mountain has a lot of dirt to check for a covered over mine.
Sometimes when you hit a number it brings up an "Emoticon". That's computers.
All kidding aside, it's good to see you posting again.
Respectfully,
Joe
Julia Thomas' First LDM Search
Joe, in answer to your question, have to go back again to the Superstition Mtn Journal Volume 2/Volume 3 (July 1982) with Milton Rose's 2nd article in that issue titled " The Story of the First and Second Hunts for the Mine of Jacob Waltz. I quote:
"The Arizonba Weekly Gazette, September 1, 1982 printed this item:
"A Queer Quest".
Mrs. E.W. Thomas, a negro woman of Phoenix and two men started out in July of 1982 to located a lost mine. The story is founded on the usual deathbed revelation of a dying man. There is a lost cabin connected with the story. The search extended over several months. (My comment-they went into the Supers in July and stayed several months? Must have been out of their minds!)
"The identity of the two men has sparked much controversy. The two men not named in the article, were told to Ray Howland by Julia a number of years later. They were Rhinehardt Petrasch and G.W. Schoules. Rhinehardt made an agreement with Schoules on the hunt, whereby he, Schoules, was to pay all expenses of the hunt. The agreement is listed as being in Book 5 of Miscellaneous Records in the Maricopa County Recorder's Office. The actual page, or agreement is now missing. Thus there is not date of execution. The agreement was executed in June before the hunt got underway."
The party camped at Cottonwood Springs, now called First Water. The heavy Julia never got very far from the wagon that they took into the mountains. She finally just stayed in camp and cooked for the three. The men managed to cover a lot of the area since it was not as brushy then as it is now."
"They did not find the mine mentioned by Jacob Waltz nor did they find anything that would lead them to it."
"Later on a second hunt with Rhinehrdt, Herman, and old man Gottfried (Peter) Petrasch was undertaken to the mountains. Julia tried to hike farther on this trip but still had a difficult time......."
Note that they went into the Supers via First Water which is the same route as described on the map that Milton detailed in Rainbow's End which I quoted earlier. I would also note that the Bark Notes contain a chapter on him finding Julia and the Petrasches entering the Supers via the Dutchman's trail above the Quarter Circle U Ranch which was a 2nd route Waltz gave them.
One other interesting quote by Milton in Rainbow's End on page 25:
"Much has been said about the gold Wlatz was supposed to still have and which was in a trunk under his bed. Julia told the Howlands (Ray and Liz) that she had removed this and cashed it later."
So much for Dick Holmes making off with it.
Many stories, many conflicts.
Roger
"The Arizonba Weekly Gazette, September 1, 1982 printed this item:
"A Queer Quest".
Mrs. E.W. Thomas, a negro woman of Phoenix and two men started out in July of 1982 to located a lost mine. The story is founded on the usual deathbed revelation of a dying man. There is a lost cabin connected with the story. The search extended over several months. (My comment-they went into the Supers in July and stayed several months? Must have been out of their minds!)
"The identity of the two men has sparked much controversy. The two men not named in the article, were told to Ray Howland by Julia a number of years later. They were Rhinehardt Petrasch and G.W. Schoules. Rhinehardt made an agreement with Schoules on the hunt, whereby he, Schoules, was to pay all expenses of the hunt. The agreement is listed as being in Book 5 of Miscellaneous Records in the Maricopa County Recorder's Office. The actual page, or agreement is now missing. Thus there is not date of execution. The agreement was executed in June before the hunt got underway."
The party camped at Cottonwood Springs, now called First Water. The heavy Julia never got very far from the wagon that they took into the mountains. She finally just stayed in camp and cooked for the three. The men managed to cover a lot of the area since it was not as brushy then as it is now."
"They did not find the mine mentioned by Jacob Waltz nor did they find anything that would lead them to it."
"Later on a second hunt with Rhinehrdt, Herman, and old man Gottfried (Peter) Petrasch was undertaken to the mountains. Julia tried to hike farther on this trip but still had a difficult time......."
Note that they went into the Supers via First Water which is the same route as described on the map that Milton detailed in Rainbow's End which I quoted earlier. I would also note that the Bark Notes contain a chapter on him finding Julia and the Petrasches entering the Supers via the Dutchman's trail above the Quarter Circle U Ranch which was a 2nd route Waltz gave them.
One other interesting quote by Milton in Rainbow's End on page 25:
"Much has been said about the gold Wlatz was supposed to still have and which was in a trunk under his bed. Julia told the Howlands (Ray and Liz) that she had removed this and cashed it later."
So much for Dick Holmes making off with it.
Many stories, many conflicts.
Roger
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Interesting Take
Roger,
I am still at the store, but I think you are wrong on a number of counts.
Before I get into that, I believe anything that Rose put into print shoud be taken with a grain of salt.
The article you speak of could not have been their first search. Only Julia and Rhiney made the first trip to the Superstitions. That may have been their second trip.
You are not reading the Bark account correctly. You are not alone. I argued this point with Steve a long time ago and believe he would be of the same opinion now. Actually he told me he was. Bark does not mention the "Dutchman's trail".
There is little doubt that Dick Holmes took the gold from under the Waltz deathbed. Brownie confirms this.
We are being led away from the truth by people like Milton Rose and many others who are "experts" on Jacob Waltz and everything that surrounds the story of the LDM. Despite all of the lies, YOU are getting closer to the truth. Keep digging.
Respectfully,
Joe
I am still at the store, but I think you are wrong on a number of counts.
Before I get into that, I believe anything that Rose put into print shoud be taken with a grain of salt.
The article you speak of could not have been their first search. Only Julia and Rhiney made the first trip to the Superstitions. That may have been their second trip.
You are not reading the Bark account correctly. You are not alone. I argued this point with Steve a long time ago and believe he would be of the same opinion now. Actually he told me he was. Bark does not mention the "Dutchman's trail".
There is little doubt that Dick Holmes took the gold from under the Waltz deathbed. Brownie confirms this.
We are being led away from the truth by people like Milton Rose and many others who are "experts" on Jacob Waltz and everything that surrounds the story of the LDM. Despite all of the lies, YOU are getting closer to the truth. Keep digging.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Bark Notes On Julia's LDM Mine Hunt
Joe, have to agree with one of your points. In the Bark Notes (Thomas Probert version) on page 10, Bark writes:
"As I was riding the range, about six miles west of the home ranch, in August of 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas, and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, who Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted. ....."
"One day they came by the ranch and there were four in the party. The other two proved to be the brother Herman and the father of the tow boys or men, knowy as Old Man Petrasch, and that they hadd just arrived from Montanna. ..."
They were obviously not on the Dutchman's trail and were in the vicinity of the old J. Fraser ranch headquarters which had a well on it. I pulled this from memory without checking on it - so much for memory lane.
Another item Milton Rose had in Rainbow's End that I have found interesting was on page 46 where he wrote more about what Charles Roberts said Waltz told him:
"Waltz talked much of his sister and her husband Jacob Weiser and the son and young daughter of the couple."
Jacob Weiser has a familiar ring to it.
Roger
"As I was riding the range, about six miles west of the home ranch, in August of 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas, and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, who Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted. ....."
"One day they came by the ranch and there were four in the party. The other two proved to be the brother Herman and the father of the tow boys or men, knowy as Old Man Petrasch, and that they hadd just arrived from Montanna. ..."
They were obviously not on the Dutchman's trail and were in the vicinity of the old J. Fraser ranch headquarters which had a well on it. I pulled this from memory without checking on it - so much for memory lane.
Another item Milton Rose had in Rainbow's End that I have found interesting was on page 46 where he wrote more about what Charles Roberts said Waltz told him:
"Waltz talked much of his sister and her husband Jacob Weiser and the son and young daughter of the couple."
Jacob Weiser has a familiar ring to it.
Roger
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Joe Ribaudo
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History Bites Again!
Roger,
The point is not that you were wrong. It returns to my point, made again and again here, that history gets changed one word at a time. I don't point out the truth, just to be right or smug. I am a true fan of history and hate to see it changed by carelessness or by lies.
There are a lot of people on this site I have great respect for, including a Dutch Hunter named Roger. Most of them have repeated and written what those that they respect have voiced or written before them. Those "facts" are not always historically correct.
If no one realizes the errors and points them out, in a few years they will become the only "facts" by repetition. Those who try to tell what really happened will be laughed into oblivion.
I am wrong all the time. (more lately) The difference is, I want to be corrected. That also happens more often lately.
Milton Rose spun a lot of yarns. I would never use anything he said or wrote as "fact', without checking it seven ways from Sunday. I have a second cousin who dated a feller in high school who said........would not be considered a good source for me. The farther we get from the event, the less truth is in the telling. Pretty much a fact.
The farther Julia and the Petraches got from the events, the farther they got from Waltz's mine. The farther John Chunning got from the events, the farther he got from the mine. Jim Bark makes note of that, and he was not far from the events.
Those who are following the tracks of failure will also fail.
Nice to see you also want to hear the facts and not the yarn.
Good Luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
The point is not that you were wrong. It returns to my point, made again and again here, that history gets changed one word at a time. I don't point out the truth, just to be right or smug. I am a true fan of history and hate to see it changed by carelessness or by lies.
There are a lot of people on this site I have great respect for, including a Dutch Hunter named Roger. Most of them have repeated and written what those that they respect have voiced or written before them. Those "facts" are not always historically correct.
If no one realizes the errors and points them out, in a few years they will become the only "facts" by repetition. Those who try to tell what really happened will be laughed into oblivion.
I am wrong all the time. (more lately) The difference is, I want to be corrected. That also happens more often lately.
Milton Rose spun a lot of yarns. I would never use anything he said or wrote as "fact', without checking it seven ways from Sunday. I have a second cousin who dated a feller in high school who said........would not be considered a good source for me. The farther we get from the event, the less truth is in the telling. Pretty much a fact.
The farther Julia and the Petraches got from the events, the farther they got from Waltz's mine. The farther John Chunning got from the events, the farther he got from the mine. Jim Bark makes note of that, and he was not far from the events.
Those who are following the tracks of failure will also fail.
Nice to see you also want to hear the facts and not the yarn.
Good Luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Mixed Signals?
Peter,
Since I was the only one who responded to your "E-X-E-R-C-I-S-E", in any fashon at all, I will assume your last post was meant for me. You will not get many people to play your games with that kind of an attitude, boy.
Sorrry, but I thought when you said:
"Heres an interesting exercise. Someone give me directions from Tortilla Creek (where it intersects with 8 to lets say Black (Charlyboy) Mtn.", you meant for us to start from "Tortilla Creek", rather than our "own front door".
That's what you get for throwing your pearls of wisdom before the little people out here.
Not wanting to "act like a three year old", causing you to take your marbles and go home, I will take a stab at your "E-X-E-R-C-I-S-E-" (That is a lot of letters)
Go to that large mountain range I am pointing at from my front porch here and than, "Take "the first gorge on the south side, from the west end of the range". Travel in a northern direction up that gorge. You will find monuments along the way. The gorge will lead you to a "lofty ridge".
Go over the ridge and you will see a "long canyon running north" below you. Go down to that canyon and past a "Butte" that looks like a "Sombrero". Follow that canyon north until you come to the first "tributary coming in from (pick a direction here). You will be able to tell it is the correct canyon, because there will be a cabin built of stone at it's mouth. Go up this canyon, staying on the left side until, towards the top, you see a large neon sign that flashes "THIS IS IT"!!! Do not be fooled by the sign, this is not it. At this point you must take a small path, that looks like a yellow brick road. Take it. You must crawl lthrough a rabbit hole, don't be afraid, but do whatever the rabbit tells you to do. When you come out of the rabbit hole, you will see gold all over the place.
Pick some up and retrace your steps.
I don't know if any "whining 3 year olds" will be able to brave there way through the rabbit hole, pretty scawy stuff, but anyone with your abilities might be able to make it.
Let me know where you end up, and where to come for my share of the gold.
Same old Peter, I see. That's kinda comforting.
Respectfully,
Joe "Nimble"
Since I was the only one who responded to your "E-X-E-R-C-I-S-E", in any fashon at all, I will assume your last post was meant for me. You will not get many people to play your games with that kind of an attitude, boy.
Sorrry, but I thought when you said:
"Heres an interesting exercise. Someone give me directions from Tortilla Creek (where it intersects with 8 to lets say Black (Charlyboy) Mtn.", you meant for us to start from "Tortilla Creek", rather than our "own front door".
That's what you get for throwing your pearls of wisdom before the little people out here.
Not wanting to "act like a three year old", causing you to take your marbles and go home, I will take a stab at your "E-X-E-R-C-I-S-E-" (That is a lot of letters)
Go to that large mountain range I am pointing at from my front porch here and than, "Take "the first gorge on the south side, from the west end of the range". Travel in a northern direction up that gorge. You will find monuments along the way. The gorge will lead you to a "lofty ridge".
Go over the ridge and you will see a "long canyon running north" below you. Go down to that canyon and past a "Butte" that looks like a "Sombrero". Follow that canyon north until you come to the first "tributary coming in from (pick a direction here). You will be able to tell it is the correct canyon, because there will be a cabin built of stone at it's mouth. Go up this canyon, staying on the left side until, towards the top, you see a large neon sign that flashes "THIS IS IT"!!! Do not be fooled by the sign, this is not it. At this point you must take a small path, that looks like a yellow brick road. Take it. You must crawl lthrough a rabbit hole, don't be afraid, but do whatever the rabbit tells you to do. When you come out of the rabbit hole, you will see gold all over the place.
Pick some up and retrace your steps.
I don't know if any "whining 3 year olds" will be able to brave there way through the rabbit hole, pretty scawy stuff, but anyone with your abilities might be able to make it.
Let me know where you end up, and where to come for my share of the gold.
Same old Peter, I see. That's kinda comforting.
Respectfully,
Joe "Nimble"
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Joe Ribaudo
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Jesse,
"I may be wrong about Dick being a "long time" friend of Jacobs. I do not know when they met. Do you? But surely, I believe they were good friends."
I don't know when or even if they ever met. I can't extend that lack of knowledge to any statement of how good of friends they were. Can't even guess.
Respectfully,
Joe
"I may be wrong about Dick being a "long time" friend of Jacobs. I do not know when they met. Do you? But surely, I believe they were good friends."
I don't know when or even if they ever met. I can't extend that lack of knowledge to any statement of how good of friends they were. Can't even guess.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe Ribaudo
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My Bad!
Jesse,
Poor wording on my part. Of course I can guess.
being "friends" requires some kind of symbiotic "relationship" based on things common to each. It is hard to find that "common ground" required for friendship between the "old" Waltz and the "young" Holmes. Can you provide a source that hints at such a relationship?
I guess, they were not friends.
Respectfully,
Joe
Poor wording on my part. Of course I can guess.
being "friends" requires some kind of symbiotic "relationship" based on things common to each. It is hard to find that "common ground" required for friendship between the "old" Waltz and the "young" Holmes. Can you provide a source that hints at such a relationship?
I guess, they were not friends.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Directions
Peter,
I take it you did not like my directions. Did I misunderstand your meaning, again? I think I followed the rules, pretty good anyway. Since no one else has participated, I guess it is pretty hard to judge how well I might have done. I was kinda hoping for an "attaboy"!
Relax, Da shil iigoolkaa'e.
Nzhogo nandago.
Respectfully,
Joe
I take it you did not like my directions.
Did I misunderstand your meaning, again? I think I followed the rules, pretty good anyway. Since no one else has participated, I guess it is pretty hard to judge how well I might have done. I was kinda hoping for an "attaboy"!Relax, Da shil iigoolkaa'e.
Nzhogo nandago.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe,
That is a very good analysis. I think the symbiotic relationship based on common things to each is described in my post to redison on page 2. I can see how a young Holmes has much in common with the old Waltz, given the dynamics of the times. Waltz is kicked off the mountain in the late 70s and Holmes is curious about the mountain, although keeping his distance for good reason. I'm sure there is more going on than we could ever know. Anything is possible.
I can not provide a source that hints at such a relationship right now.
Take Care,
Jesse
That is a very good analysis. I think the symbiotic relationship based on common things to each is described in my post to redison on page 2. I can see how a young Holmes has much in common with the old Waltz, given the dynamics of the times. Waltz is kicked off the mountain in the late 70s and Holmes is curious about the mountain, although keeping his distance for good reason. I'm sure there is more going on than we could ever know. Anything is possible.
I can not provide a source that hints at such a relationship right now.
Take Care,
Jesse