Jesse--- see you posting on the Forum and was wondering what is happening at the HEAT dig in the Supers. Haven't seen any new status on the DutchHunter.com site.
Are you into the horizontal Mexican shaft now?
Roger
Jessie Feldman Question: Status of HEAT Dig?
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Treasure Trove
Roger
We have been working very hard on the dig. For some reason we have gone silent on dutchhunter. It may be explained by the need to digest information and continue by ourselves for a while. We have lots of exciting things to share but ultimately it is up to our webmaster to add knew material. He has been busy with work and documenting the dig in the field. In about two weeks I will post an update unless someone beats me to it. Also we have transitioned to a knew archaeologist which took five weeks out of our dig program. We have been going steady since.
Jesse
We have been working very hard on the dig. For some reason we have gone silent on dutchhunter. It may be explained by the need to digest information and continue by ourselves for a while. We have lots of exciting things to share but ultimately it is up to our webmaster to add knew material. He has been busy with work and documenting the dig in the field. In about two weeks I will post an update unless someone beats me to it. Also we have transitioned to a knew archaeologist which took five weeks out of our dig program. We have been going steady since.
Jesse
HEAT DIG
Article in Arizona Republic on dig 5/18/05 at this site:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... ove18.html
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... ove18.html
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
C-14 Date
Jesse,
Considering the short time you have left for this project, I hope you don't have time to read or answer this post.
If you do, or someone else knows the answers, here are the questions:
Has Dr. Rice given you any idea of how long it will take to have your timber placed in a lab, and scheduled for a C-14 test?
Has he given you some idea of how accurate such a test can be on a mine timber that might only be 200 to 300 years old?
A few years ago, I did some research into a horse skull which was excavated in 1936 from a mound on Spencer Lake in Wisconsin.
Other "stuff" found in the mound was RadioCarbon dated and found to be
"all pre-Columbian". All of the dating was done, I believe, in the 1960s.
I am not sure that the skull has ever been tested.
There is some question as to whether the skull was placed in the mound as a prank, which may be why it was not tested. I assume the turnaround time for a C-14 test has improved somewhat.
Hopefully, the rewards you will receive will greatly surpass the efforts you have all made. Even though those rewards may not include gold or silver, proving that the site was Spanish will place you all in the history books. A thousand years from now, hopefully, that history will still survive. If that alone is the results, it will have been worth the effort, and more.
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
Considering the short time you have left for this project, I hope you don't have time to read or answer this post.
If you do, or someone else knows the answers, here are the questions:
Has Dr. Rice given you any idea of how long it will take to have your timber placed in a lab, and scheduled for a C-14 test?
Has he given you some idea of how accurate such a test can be on a mine timber that might only be 200 to 300 years old?
A few years ago, I did some research into a horse skull which was excavated in 1936 from a mound on Spencer Lake in Wisconsin.
Other "stuff" found in the mound was RadioCarbon dated and found to be
"all pre-Columbian". All of the dating was done, I believe, in the 1960s.
I am not sure that the skull has ever been tested.
There is some question as to whether the skull was placed in the mound as a prank, which may be why it was not tested. I assume the turnaround time for a C-14 test has improved somewhat.
Hopefully, the rewards you will receive will greatly surpass the efforts you have all made. Even though those rewards may not include gold or silver, proving that the site was Spanish will place you all in the history books. A thousand years from now, hopefully, that history will still survive. If that alone is the results, it will have been worth the effort, and more.
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
This from the Sierra Club:
'Persons who search for "treasure" or gold or the Lost Dutchman mine are living inside a grand delusion. All gold is fool's gold. '
Here is the link to the full commentary:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... 2-212.html
One of you guys with a dozer must have messed up his flower bed!
'Persons who search for "treasure" or gold or the Lost Dutchman mine are living inside a grand delusion. All gold is fool's gold. '
Here is the link to the full commentary:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... 2-212.html
One of you guys with a dozer must have messed up his flower bed!
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Joe,
Some of the primary timbers will be tree ring dated. We found Alder, Juniper, Oak, Walnut, and maybe another. U. of A. dendrochronology will attempt to give us a year the Juniper timbers were cut. It is on a high priority but, I don't know when we will hear any info. Everything will be in the final Archaeological Report.
My rewards have been all through the dig. We finished what we started, noboby got hurt, and we did it in a fun way without taxing ourselves. We surveyed everything to rock walls and did not find the elusive left drift. If it exists it is a parallel tunnel that does not intersect. Their is not enough conclusive evidence to warrant our attention anywhere nearby. We ended discovery work about May 10. We took two weeks to wrap up loose ends which was important. As you know the month of May is not over and things always happen at the last minute.
Sierra Club, If you are listening.
This is what I do in my spare time. Some people like to go the lake, others like to bitch. I do not deny anyone to do what they want as long as it does not purposly hurt anyone., ie: burning houses and closing lands.
Why not promote beliefs by using positive techniques. What the Sierra Club, Jim Valer, said just benefits us. Thanks.
Jesse J. Feldman
H.E.A.T. MEMBER
Some of the primary timbers will be tree ring dated. We found Alder, Juniper, Oak, Walnut, and maybe another. U. of A. dendrochronology will attempt to give us a year the Juniper timbers were cut. It is on a high priority but, I don't know when we will hear any info. Everything will be in the final Archaeological Report.
My rewards have been all through the dig. We finished what we started, noboby got hurt, and we did it in a fun way without taxing ourselves. We surveyed everything to rock walls and did not find the elusive left drift. If it exists it is a parallel tunnel that does not intersect. Their is not enough conclusive evidence to warrant our attention anywhere nearby. We ended discovery work about May 10. We took two weeks to wrap up loose ends which was important. As you know the month of May is not over and things always happen at the last minute.
Sierra Club, If you are listening.
This is what I do in my spare time. Some people like to go the lake, others like to bitch. I do not deny anyone to do what they want as long as it does not purposly hurt anyone., ie: burning houses and closing lands.
Why not promote beliefs by using positive techniques. What the Sierra Club, Jim Valer, said just benefits us. Thanks.
Jesse J. Feldman
H.E.A.T. MEMBER
I always get a chuckle out of these grandiose statements of "fact", made by someone who has most likely never investigated the matter at all. (Meaning the Sierra Club guy, not Armchair).armchair wrote:This from the Sierra Club:
'Persons who search for "treasure" or gold or the Lost Dutchman mine are living inside a grand delusion. All gold is fool's gold. '
Here is the link to the full commentary:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... 2-212.html
One of you guys with a dozer must have messed up his flower bed!
Compare to a lot more positive quote from Ron Feldman a few years ago:
"I actually hope no one ever finds the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine. It's a great dream. It's a call to adventure that would be lost if anyone actually found it."
Link for the full article:
http://www.azlegend.com/dbglobal/web_az ... p?NewsID=5
"I actually hope no one ever finds the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine. It's a great dream. It's a call to adventure that would be lost if anyone actually found it."
Link for the full article:
http://www.azlegend.com/dbglobal/web_az ... p?NewsID=5
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Tree Rings
Jesse,
I looked into the science when we were talking about the Twin Buttes scrapings. Got to talk to some of the staff at N.A.U. and U. of A.
Ten or fifteen years ago, they would not have been able to date your timbers. New methods make that possible today. Interesting process.
Good Luck!! We are all looking forward to seeing how the adventure turns out.
Respectfully,
Joe
I looked into the science when we were talking about the Twin Buttes scrapings. Got to talk to some of the staff at N.A.U. and U. of A.
Ten or fifteen years ago, they would not have been able to date your timbers. New methods make that possible today. Interesting process.
Good Luck!! We are all looking forward to seeing how the adventure turns out.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Questions
Jesse,
I would guess that a lot of us would like to know what you had to have to get your Treasure Trove permit.
I was under the impression that you had to show something of value, prior to getting the permit.
Were Ted's letters and the pictures all that they needed, as far as proof that there was something of value at the site?
Did the assertion that it was an "early Spanish" mine enter into the "value" requirement? (Historical value)
Considering the amount of rainfall you experienced, we are all lucky you guys made it through the project unscathed.
Best wishes to you and the family.
Respectfully,
Joe
I would guess that a lot of us would like to know what you had to have to get your Treasure Trove permit.
I was under the impression that you had to show something of value, prior to getting the permit.
Were Ted's letters and the pictures all that they needed, as far as proof that there was something of value at the site?
Did the assertion that it was an "early Spanish" mine enter into the "value" requirement? (Historical value)
Considering the amount of rainfall you experienced, we are all lucky you guys made it through the project unscathed.
Best wishes to you and the family.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Joe,
Teds letters and pics were the vehicle to show a possibility of treasure. That in itself is not enough. We had to prove a history on paper and in the field of mining within two miles. That was not a problem. To make it very simple to understand, there was a mill 1/4 mile away from the proposed site. The Arch. Work Site Plan cost thousands. We had to pass S.H.I.P.O. We had to be bonded. I believe the F.S. had to believe in us on a personal level. - That we would do the right thing. - That we are legitimate. - That we understand their concerns. Once we hit the tunnel, via down the shaft, the F.S. had to see the tunnel and early timbering.
Joe, it is much more complex than that, and many more steps. It took five years of paperwork. Every step in the paper process felt like we were the first to do it. Obtaining a treasure trove permit in the Superstition Wilderness is not for the quick to get angry type of people. You must have a very legitimate possibility of treasure, backed by factual, common sence, understandable, solid, information.
Take Care,
Jesse
Teds letters and pics were the vehicle to show a possibility of treasure. That in itself is not enough. We had to prove a history on paper and in the field of mining within two miles. That was not a problem. To make it very simple to understand, there was a mill 1/4 mile away from the proposed site. The Arch. Work Site Plan cost thousands. We had to pass S.H.I.P.O. We had to be bonded. I believe the F.S. had to believe in us on a personal level. - That we would do the right thing. - That we are legitimate. - That we understand their concerns. Once we hit the tunnel, via down the shaft, the F.S. had to see the tunnel and early timbering.
Joe, it is much more complex than that, and many more steps. It took five years of paperwork. Every step in the paper process felt like we were the first to do it. Obtaining a treasure trove permit in the Superstition Wilderness is not for the quick to get angry type of people. You must have a very legitimate possibility of treasure, backed by factual, common sence, understandable, solid, information.
Take Care,
Jesse
Heat
AZDAV: Now I don,t know how true it is BUT I heard they were going to pass laws against smoking and farting along with requirements that you wear one of them stupied little helmets and a pair of them little spandex shorts that are bright colors that keep your butt hoisted up in everyones face; When you go out in the wilds. It,s so they can find you easier when you get lost. I think it,s still in the unconfirmed rumer stage at this time. I called my senater to protest the infringment on our rights anyway. Bill 
lol....i wouldnt doubt it....the newbies dont know what its like to go anywhere out in the hills you want and do as you please...i remember a time not so long ago when there were no fences at the salt river and you could drive anywhere you wanted by the bridge or anywhere else....last november i went for a drive to first water road....fences along both sides of the road...you cant even drive to the old rock house up on the hill....i used to drive all over the goldfield area and no one said sh*t to me..except maybe an old prospector that thought i was on his claim...lol.......they keep sneaking more restrictions on us and we wont be able to treasure hunt or prospect anywhere...its our own fault for letting them....we could still change it if everyone would stick together...after world war 2 we ran all the nazi's out of germany....from the looks of things around here they must have all came here and ran for public office...lol
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Das Hoops
Jesse,
I knew you folks were jumping through hoops faster than a circus dog on speed, but it's interesting to hear some of the details.
If you can tell us, did you find anything that indicates that the dig was originally Spanish? Since you are dating the wood, I assume no artifacts were found. In trying to date any given dig, the first thing they want to know, is: what date are you expecting?
That information usually comes from the layers above the dig and the artifacts that have been found. In your case, you did not excavate through any layers of "stuff". If no artifacts have been found, you are left with dating the wood.
Two things which could help in dating the site, would be the methods used in shoring the mine and the degree and quality of the finish for the beams themselves.
No doubt you have already heard this but it may be of interest to some of the members.
I am sure everyone is anxiously awaiting the results, especially those of us who have been participating (vicariously) in the project.
Good Luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
I knew you folks were jumping through hoops faster than a circus dog on speed, but it's interesting to hear some of the details.
If you can tell us, did you find anything that indicates that the dig was originally Spanish? Since you are dating the wood, I assume no artifacts were found. In trying to date any given dig, the first thing they want to know, is: what date are you expecting?
That information usually comes from the layers above the dig and the artifacts that have been found. In your case, you did not excavate through any layers of "stuff". If no artifacts have been found, you are left with dating the wood.
Two things which could help in dating the site, would be the methods used in shoring the mine and the degree and quality of the finish for the beams themselves.
No doubt you have already heard this but it may be of interest to some of the members.
I am sure everyone is anxiously awaiting the results, especially those of us who have been participating (vicariously) in the project.
Good Luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Joe,
The first thing you have to understand is - We did not dig in anything that was not dug by Cox except ten feet of tunnel. Cox claimed to have found artifacts. We have not, but that was expected. There is still twenty feet of tunnel that has not been dug since the first miners. I am confident there is artifacts in the untouched tunnel. There has to be. I wanted to dig it but was overuled because of safety and time issues. I also have to add Cox left the old timbers as we have done except the ones we sent out for identification. Many things indicate this tunnel is something other than anglo. Its size and its timbering are just what you would expect to see. I just can't see anything but Spanish entrepreneurs. One way or the other, if the results are conclusive, it will make all of us think differently.
Take Care,
Jesse
The first thing you have to understand is - We did not dig in anything that was not dug by Cox except ten feet of tunnel. Cox claimed to have found artifacts. We have not, but that was expected. There is still twenty feet of tunnel that has not been dug since the first miners. I am confident there is artifacts in the untouched tunnel. There has to be. I wanted to dig it but was overuled because of safety and time issues. I also have to add Cox left the old timbers as we have done except the ones we sent out for identification. Many things indicate this tunnel is something other than anglo. Its size and its timbering are just what you would expect to see. I just can't see anything but Spanish entrepreneurs. One way or the other, if the results are conclusive, it will make all of us think differently.
Take Care,
Jesse
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
rgm 840,
We had two models of gpr machines at the site. One model cost twenty thousand and the other cost double that. Niether one accomplished anything except wasting our time. They were more of a curiosity interest that had no bearing on my decisions. If tempted, one could waste many hours thinking, and acting on delusions of gpr expectance. I know for a fact they work for targets two feet in depth. Don't count on it being easy to read though. They just lack in the ability to reach any further. Much more expensive units may have use. If someone could come up with something that showed what was in the ground to a conclusive degree, Treasure Trove Permits could be justified with ease. That day will come.
Jesse
We had two models of gpr machines at the site. One model cost twenty thousand and the other cost double that. Niether one accomplished anything except wasting our time. They were more of a curiosity interest that had no bearing on my decisions. If tempted, one could waste many hours thinking, and acting on delusions of gpr expectance. I know for a fact they work for targets two feet in depth. Don't count on it being easy to read though. They just lack in the ability to reach any further. Much more expensive units may have use. If someone could come up with something that showed what was in the ground to a conclusive degree, Treasure Trove Permits could be justified with ease. That day will come.
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Contacts
Harry,
I assume you have tried the companies listed at the top of these pages. I would think they could provide the type of information you are seeking.
Respectfully,
Joe
I assume you have tried the companies listed at the top of these pages. I would think they could provide the type of information you are seeking.
Respectfully,
Joe
Yep,
The guy out of Florida was supposed to be here May 8. Never showed,
never called. I'm looking into the guys out of Las Vegas and our German
guy is bypassing the Florida vendor and contacting Germany directly
which is the original source of the instrument. GPR doesn't look good
after reading the books on it. Feldman's experience corroborates
that info. I think the one out of Las Vegas is magnetometer based.
We will have a demo on that soon.
Everything is still up in the air, as you see. A simple deepseeking
metal detector may do the job since we think we have the location
within a foot or two. We just want to have options. With no electronic
response we are done. We are looking for a void first, iron tools second.
We would like to look down 30 ft. There is no indication that the
region we are in has ever seen an atom of gold.
Harry
The guy out of Florida was supposed to be here May 8. Never showed,
never called. I'm looking into the guys out of Las Vegas and our German
guy is bypassing the Florida vendor and contacting Germany directly
which is the original source of the instrument. GPR doesn't look good
after reading the books on it. Feldman's experience corroborates
that info. I think the one out of Las Vegas is magnetometer based.
We will have a demo on that soon.
Everything is still up in the air, as you see. A simple deepseeking
metal detector may do the job since we think we have the location
within a foot or two. We just want to have options. With no electronic
response we are done. We are looking for a void first, iron tools second.
We would like to look down 30 ft. There is no indication that the
region we are in has ever seen an atom of gold.
Harry
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
China or 30" Same Same
Harry,
I have not kept up on the new technologies for void or metal detectors, but I have a good friend in the business who is a well know authority. Things have not changed that much.
There are rumors that that the government has equipment that can make that 30' and more, but the same rumors place the cost for such equipment in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Right now, ten feet seems to be the realistic depth for commercially available detectors (large metal deposits only) and voids.
Whites has a good two-box detector with a "cave mode" that is good for ten to fifteen feet maximum.
Fisher claims their "Gemini-3" can pick up a metal object that is two yards square at 25 feet. If true, that would seem to be your best bet.
Most of the areas in the Superstitions should have little interference from "hot rocks". Maximum depth, for large metal objects, should be reached on a regular basis.
For a little more information you might try: www.ldolphin.org/Geoarch.html
Hope you have better luck than this.
Respectfully,
Joe
I have not kept up on the new technologies for void or metal detectors, but I have a good friend in the business who is a well know authority. Things have not changed that much.
There are rumors that that the government has equipment that can make that 30' and more, but the same rumors place the cost for such equipment in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Right now, ten feet seems to be the realistic depth for commercially available detectors (large metal deposits only) and voids.
Whites has a good two-box detector with a "cave mode" that is good for ten to fifteen feet maximum.
Fisher claims their "Gemini-3" can pick up a metal object that is two yards square at 25 feet. If true, that would seem to be your best bet.
Most of the areas in the Superstitions should have little interference from "hot rocks". Maximum depth, for large metal objects, should be reached on a regular basis.
For a little more information you might try: www.ldolphin.org/Geoarch.html
Hope you have better luck than this.
Respectfully,
Joe