Borrego 13 is here

[Knun]

GK,

Like you, in the beginning I was intrigued by the “Dutchman.” But once you drill a little deeper (pun intended) the history and people become even more interesting . This forum is the best resource you will find. I can only recommend that you stay away from libraries, LDS history centers, old newspapers, historical societies and don‘t follow up on any of the publications Joe provides. That is unless you want to spend countless hours being sidetracked into history of the area that is relevant and interesting. And be prepared to move the boat out of the garage because your going to need the room for your personal library which you’ll soon develop. By the way I still consider myself just beginning.

Having read a few books on the subject (Thanks Joe, Aurum, and Peter) I would add this. I think the spiritualism of the Apaches (and all Indians for that matter) is something which seems to intrigue most of us white eyes. The earthly connection of their belief systems seems to draw us city dwellers. Something that we want to understand but something that is held close to those who practice(d). Books alone will only provide a basic overview and that’s as close as most of us will ever get.

As for minerals, it’s my understanding that late 19th century apaches believed that digging in the ground was a violation of the earth. That doing so would result in the mountain spirits making earthquakes. Weren’t there a few earthquakes in the Sups in the 1800’s?

Also that gold was the symbol of Ussen and was a forbidden metal. If one discovered mineral deposits, and in particular gold, the person was obligated to provide the location to his chief and not to tell anyone else.

As stated these beliefs are 19th century and the hardships of the reservations and over one hundred years of persecution have altered that belief for most. Yet even today you would be hard pressed to meet an Apache wearing gold jewelry. The modern Apache has found a way to mine for gold without grovelling in the earth though…..their mines are called casinos.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

I know you did not address that comment to me, but it's an astute observation.

While the word, nagondzoog is old, it fell out of use with most modern-day Apache. The revivial is due to the upswing in martial arts in the 1900s, at least in the United States.

The original word had little to do with "martial arts" but did have everything to do with the life style of the Apache. If you associate the ability to survive, with being a great warrior, I suppose you could say the Apache were great warriors. They were no match for a number of tribes from that period, but they did know how to survive a battle, to fight another day.

The main "link", actually, is Asia. When you consider where the Apache originally came from, the connection is not so surprising.

Aurum has, once again, brought the wood for the "white man's fire". Great post.

Kudos to Peter. I wish him God speed in his quest.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Gene Reynolds]

xxx

[Joe Ribaudo]

Knun,

It was not all that unusual for the Apache to use gold. How they obtained it is the qualifier. Here is a quote, one of many that can be found:

[One chief told his people, "The White Eyes are superstitious about gold. Their lust for it is insatiable. They lie, steal, kill, die, for it." To the Apaches, this obsession was unfathomable. Gold was too soft to be useful: you could make neither bullets nor arrowheads from it. The substance was, moreover, sacred to Ussen, a symbol of the sun. The same chief explicated the taboo against mining: "We are permitted to pick it up from the surface of Mother Earth, but not to grovel in her body for it. To do so is to incur the wrath of Ussen. The Mountain Gods dance and shake their mighty shoulders, destroying everything near."]

There is an amazing story in the same book where this quote is found. It involves gold, Cochise, Tom Jeffords and the son of Cochise. I could make it easy, but will leave it for someone else to name the book and the page.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Aurum; Thank you ! You told me what I was wanting to know. The reason that I was joking with Peter was to get him to talk to me. I was wondering about what he was being schooled for or training for with the apacha. Peter if you think I was making fun of your name find out the spelling of it world wide I beleive you will find my spelling of petier in there somewhere. I ment no disrepect to you or your training if that,s the right word for it, I was interested in it tho. JOE; You need to broaden your horizons abit. YOU need tobe more positive about things and people. A little less on the negative side. A gentle nudge with the elbow or joke is not an attack. I am not going to say anymore on this. bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

"JOE; You need to broaden your horizons abit. YOU need tobe more positive about things and people. A little less on the negative side. A gentle nudge with the elbow or joke is not an attack. I am not going to say anymore on this. bill"

There is a lot of merit/truth in your comment.

Thank's.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

"Bill, I'd be surprised if Peter is even paying any attention to this forum any more."

SURPRISE! He is paying attention.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Greg,

"I'm not sure why (maybe it's Dr Glover's referance to Al and his work with the Bible) but one of the people I'd like to find out more of is Al Morrow. It is my understanding that he was working the Bluff Spring Mountain area. But I haven't been able to find much on him."

I guess no one is going to respond to this comment, so you may want to try the Museum. There is a book/pamphlet by Albert E. Morrow titled: "Famous Lost Gold Mines Of Arizonas Superstition Mountains".

Tom Kollenborn has a nice chapter on Al and closes it with this:

"Nineteen years not forsaken,
Al Morrow searched in vain,
By accident his life was taken,
Peace and good will was his fame."

Carlson and Stewart show the humor of the man on page 71 of "Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness".

John Fuller, author of "The Great Soul Trial", devotes a few pages to Al. In early 1968, he rode into Al's camp with Jess Beal. Jess was an "old time" cowboy, who would never walk as long as he had a horse available.
He quotes Al on page 277: You're living so close to nature, and your mind is clear. In town it's cluttered. The good Lord takes care of a person. People in cities and towns have lost a lot of that....."

All of the above will give you a better idea of Al Morrow. You could never enter his camp without an offer of coffee and a baloney sandwich.

Respectfully,

Joe

[GK_STAR]

Thank you Joe,
From the limited things I have read about Al Morrow it seems that everyone agree's on one thing about Al........He was one of the "Good Guys". I'm not sure which topic it was but I remember reading one of your posts where you included part of a letter from your Uncle and he mentioned Al Morrow in it, and your Uncle seemed to have respect for Al. I would have enjoyed one of Al's baloney sandwich's and a cup'o Joe (no pun intended ) at his campfire.

Greg

[Joe Ribaudo]

Greg,

My dad always turned down Al's sandwich offers. He had his doubts as to Al's hand-washing habits. I remember him telling me, "Al would go out in the brush, take care of business, come back and proceed to make sandwich's.

My Uncle Chuch knew Al very well. Many people have written that Al did not allow firearms in his camp. Chuck always had his .45 on his hip while in the mountains and that included in Al's camp, where he spent a considerable amount of time. Chuck was really good with firearms. He could beat the drop, and that was when I had really good reflexes.

You are correct, he was a rare man. Although he did not get his wish to leave his remains in the Superstitions, you can bet his spirit is still there.

Respectfully,

Joe