Borrego 13 is here

[bill711]

Gene; It,s a shame that you have to leave us; I think I can speak for ALL of US on the forum on this, WE will ALL miss you and wish you well where ever you find yourself at. If possible come back on line with us and listen in and join in our continual squabble. Only don,t get OFFENDED and GO to SEETHING at me like some do. I wish you well. I was once in your position and I just got away from it and as soon as they needed something here they come awanting and being friendly again. Take Care Bill

[GK_STAR]

Ok Gene, Thanks. I'll be putting the check in the mail tomorrow. I am just starting off with my jounney down the LDM trail and Borrego 13 is my 2nd book on the subject, my 1st was Dr Glover's Book (if by chance you read this Dr Glover KUDO's to you on the book, I'll be getting the 2nd one as soon as I can swing it, and a KUDO's to you also Joe for recommending Dr Glover's book to me a few months back) . I look forward to reading it.

Thanks,
Greg

[Joe Ribaudo]

Gene,

If you are leaving for good, you should consider Arizona. Climate is pretty good for "old bones". If you come this way, we can make a trip to Borrego Mountain.

In any case, keep in touch, and good luck.

G.K.

You are certainly welcome, but anyone here would have made the same recommendation.

So far, what is the most interesting aspect of the legend for you?

Respectfully,

Joe

[GK_STAR]

Hello Joe,
Well, this may sound goofy to some but........the Apache connection. I have only spent a very short time in the Superstitions when I was there in Feb (I planned on doing more then but Family matters went south on me and requried most of my time) I hiked in from the 1st water area. For the 1st hour or so I just sorta stumbled around following the creek. I then headed up a ridge. As I got to the top I needed to sit and rest. Thats when it hit me.......just a feeling, but .....what a feeling. A power that is not man made. I have always believed in things of a spiritual nature (it kept me alive 6 years ago) and thats the feeling I got when sitting there looking out over the wilderness. While not Native American, I had respect for there beliefs before this but that respect was taken up a notch or 2 that day. I want to check out more on the Apache connection along with the other aspects of the LDM and area (it's hard to do where I live because the folks up at the library look at me like I'm nuts when I ask about books on the subject, so far thats a dry hole for me) from the times of the Peralta's to the H.E.A.T. project, I will try and approch this with an open mind and try not to get locked in on any one direction. Of my reading so far I can't help but notice that there is no shortage of strange & unexplained things and events connected with the LDM. In my life I have spent alot of time in the High Country of the Cascade's so I know that in a rugged enviroment you have to use extream caution as danger waits around every turn in the trail. When I read about some of the Greenhorns going in and meeting with misforture's I except it with a passing glance. But from what I have been able to read so far is that some very Mountain Wise folks have gone in there and have faired no better then the Greenhorns (in some cases the Greenhorns have faired better). Thunder Gods? Apache Curse? Luck of the Draw? Hell.....for all I know it could be UFO's. But I will never forget the feeling I got sitting up there on that ridge that afternoon. I for one will be doing some research in that direction (I think I'll leave the UFO angle for someone else though ) I'm not sure why (maybe it's Dr Glover's referance to Al and his work with the Bible) but one of the people I'd like to find out more of is Al Morrow. It is my understanding that he was working the Bluff Spring Mountain area. But I haven't been able to find much on him. Ya know.....it's kinda funny but Jacob Waltz and the Gold have become secondary to me. I am enjoying reading about the lesser known folk's and history involved in the LDM legend while doing my research, I find myself getting sidetracked all the time. As I am only 4 months into my search I have far more questions than I do answers and there is little information I can add at this time but hope to at some point be able to recall information as do some of you here at pert near the drop of a hat, but for now....I'm in sponge mood My next trip to the Superstitions can't come soon enough for me.
One thing that has been nagging at me the last few days is this, in the history of the LDM there are a bunch of cases of non-Indian searches for the gold.........are there any cases of Indians looking for it? I find it hard to believe that there has never been an Apache that wasn't strickin with gold fever. And I'm not talking about some distant waterdowned Indian......I'm talkin local connected Apaches. It would seem to me that other then a fear of the "Thunder Gods" that they might have the inside track. Just thinkin out loud.

Greg

[bill711]

Joe is our Petier a real indi. or a watered down version?? What say you Pete?? Bill

[GK_STAR]

Before this grows legs I want to say that no disrespect was intended, both my Kids and Grandaugther are what I refered to as "Waterdowned Indians" . One thing you can take to the bank.........I will never be accused of being "Politicly Correct
What I should of said was.......oh hell.......I'd better stop while I still have one of my feet still on the ground, my jaws will only spead so wide


Greg

[bill711]

Greg; I think we all knew what you meant. I am only about 1/4 indi myself. I had 3 great granies that were fulblood,s. MAYBE nobody had their feelers all hung out all over the room so they could get them bent up so they could get OFFENDED and AGO to SEETHIN at us. I have great respect for my indi side too. I think you respect the indians too. If I didn,t like Peter I wouldn,t tease him so much. I have respect for Peter even tho I joke with him. Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Greg,

Having spent a number of years with Indians being my best friends, I learned one thing: The ones who count, respect a man who says what he believes.

While working as a pipe fighter at the San Juan power plant in New Mexico, I knew and worked alongside of many Indiians. One night we were taking our "lunch" break, and an Indian I had not seen before walked in. For some strange reason he was drawn to me. "When are you going to give us back our land, white man?", were the only words he spoke to me.

Like you, I speak my mind. This was my reply:

When your people first came here, they took the land from those who came before. They took it and held it by force. When we came, we also took the land by force from your people. When you are strong enough to defeat us, you can have it back.

His response was to nod his head. As I looked around at the other Indians within earshot, they were all nodding. They respect "POWER" and they respect honesty. No need for you to worry about those who don't.

Now the "power" that you felt, is from another source. I have only felt it, like you describe, from the high places in the Superstitions.

There are many, many books about the Apache Indians. What you are looking for is not the history of the people, but the heart and soul.

Here are some books which may help:

"Wisdom Sits in Places" by, Keith H. Basso.

"Among the Western Apache: Letters from the field" by Grenville Goodwin.

"The Apache Diaries: A Father-Son Journey" by Grenville Goodwin & Neil Goodwin.

"Western Apache Raiding & Warfare", from the notes of Grenville Goodwin.

Two books by, Morris Opler: "Myths and Tales of the Jicarilla Apache Indians" and "An Apache Life-Way".

Two books by Peter Aleshire: "Cochise: The Life and Times of the Great Apache Chief" and "Warrior Woman".

I know you didn't ask for "book of the month club" recommendations, but I went down the trail you are starting, many years ago. It would be my honor, to suggest another path with less historical facts, and a greater (Apache) spiritual direction.

There are some on this forum who believe I don't have any respect for Native Americans. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I have no idea if Peter has "Indian" blood in him, or not. Considering his last name, he has a much better chance of being part Apache, than a goofball named Ribaudo.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

I don,t know either Joe BUT since he writes alittle apache in his post every once in awhile so I thought MAYBE he had a touch of indi blood in him or was receiving sweat from someone who was indian. I guess Pete is going to stay surly and not talk to us. JOE I just happened to think We have the HIGHEST HILL [MONT MAGAZINE ARK.] in the U.S.A. just south of me, maybe I,ll just go up on it and SUCK aaaallllll your mountains power up here with me. Bill

[Aurum]

XX

[Joe Ribaudo]

GK,

Aurum always gives good advise, and knows his subject before he speaks.

If the Apache are aware of the locations of gold in the Superstitions, they may or may not have used that gold in the past. It depends on the state of the gold.

If the gold is in it's natural form and must be mined from the earth, it is forbidden to them by Ussen. If it is refined gold or treasure, they can and have used it in the past.

If a mine or treasure exists in the Superstitions, not every Apache would know where or how to find it. That information would be restricted to Shamans.

The written word is a powerfull tool, for those who understand the meanings expressed, rather than the words. Not everyone will become "deeply involved" with the Apache of today, trying to understand the Apache of yesterday. For them, a guide will be required. That guide, by necessity, will be books. You will find your own way.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Aurum; I know the indian is different turned than the white people; it is in the raising of them as children. I know they are really a shy quit type of people around outsiders [whites etcetra] BUT they can be a noisey lot among their own people. Their mannerism,s are even different than whites. I used to have a elderly fullblood cherokee come over to have a coffee with me. You would just about climb the wall waiting for him to say SOMETHING. I gave up 5.00 worth of conversation just waiting to see what he had on his mind. One day he ask me how much money it would take to get out of jail if he hit someone over the head with a stick? I asked him who it was and he told me,I knew she had to have said something pretty bad if he was that mad. So I told him if he hit her I would get him out of jail if they put him there. He was really a fine old man. He wouldn,t hurt anyone unless they really provoked him BUT I knew the old woman was a trouble making dog and her sons were theiving killers [druggies] one had killed twice and got away with it, no proof. My grandmother was real quit turned this way and very religous prayed before every meal. My mother showed some of these mannerism,s BUT not so many. If Peter is some degree of indi; He could just be showing some of this mannerism,s that are nateral to the indian,s. I just tease him about being surly because I really don,t like pointing out some one,s nationallity or pedigree if that,s what you want to call it. BUT when you get out in the wilds and come up on the real beauty of nature or the magnificence of nater or GOD,S work WHITE or RED you will feel the awe of the scenery and literly FEEL the POWER of the scene. bill

[GK_STAR]

Thank You Joe, Aurum & Bill,
Maybe my thought's arn't as goofy as I thought because they seemed to have come out loud and clear, at least to you. While I do have interest in the "History" of the Apache it's the Spiritual aspect I am wanting to try and get a grip on. While I'm in no way a Bible Thumper I do believe in a Spiritual world and it's effects on the ways of the world we now walk. Having been married to a Yakama I have a basic understanding of there ways and beliefs but as my interest now dwells in the Superstitions I feel that at least a basic understanding of the Apache Spiritual world is warrented so I will mosey down that trail. I will keep up my requests of help at the Library here and buy books when I can so thank you Joe for that list and your encouragment.

Aurum, Having spent time talking to elders of the Yakama's I know the value of doing so and would love to do so with the Apache's but I know that it's not as easy as walking up to one and saying "Hey whats up....mind if I pick your brain?" for that only comes from earning there respect. but who know's......someday maybe. Thank you for your suggestions......they are tucked away for the future.

Bill, Indians shy & quiet?.......only the ones who truely have something to say, IMHO of course. Hell.....I was family (so ta speak) and it didn't come easy with the Yakama's. But was well worth the wait.

Food for thought: while some will say that that feeling I got while up in the Mountains was due to thin air I say this......while not as strong..... I have felt it even here in the flatland's of Minnesota, we too have WindWalker's here in the Great White North.......a measly 900 ft above sea level



Greg

[GK_STAR]

Oh yeah......The check went in the mail this morning Gene.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Aurum,

If "Nagondzog" will help Peter, or anyone for that matter, understand the Apache soul and heart, good luck to them.

I don't believe anyone, including a modern-day "Shidaale" can impart the knowledge of the heart and soul of the Apache we are interested in here.
Without the life experiences of the Apache who are long dead, you may as well read a book. That's as close as you can get.

Running for miles with a mouthfull of water and then spitting it out at the end of the run, will not make you an "almost" Apache. Burning your skin, bathing in a pond in the dead of winter, hiding among the cactus or eating a horse will not do it either.

You might draw closer if you can experience what James Kaywaykla did.
You needed to complete the quote:

"Until I was about ten years old I did not know that people died except by violence. That is because I am an Apache, a Warm Springs Apache whose first vivid memories are of being driven from our reservation near Ojo Caliente with fire and sword."

James Kaywaykla's first "vivid" memories were from the reservation. Don't we need the memories of pre-reservation Apaches as well? While those memories may still be with a few of the Apache of today, they are growing dimmer with the passing years. Books are what keep the memories alive for most.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Aurum]

XX

[Joe Ribaudo]

Aurum,

You are, of course, correct. I was a little pushed for time with my answer.

I realize that the spiritual aspect of the learning process is not omited from the Nagandzog teachings. My point was that no modern-day Apache or "near" Apache has the life experience needed to understand the heart and soul of the ancestors.

They can understand no more than can be learned, by some, from the books that explore that aspect of the "old" Apache way. The memories that existed in the Apache of one hundred years ago, has been diluted by the passage of time and the distance of personal experience.

A better understanding of the Apache can be bolstered by reading "In The Hands Of The Great Spirit" which is a twenty thousand year history of the American Indian. How the Apache fought and were one with the land they occupied is only part of the total.

We can only try to understand what made the Apache of the early years tick. Unless we can experience the power of the places, it may never happen, and that's no guarantee either.

All of the above is just my opinion so I could, of course, be wrong.

Best wishes.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Aurum, Joe

To say it very simple but with the understanding you have, it says much; These people you speak of are a product of their enviroment.

As I understand it humans are born with everything they need. All of us. When given the chance to be as free and close to the land as Apaches were, are, everything makes sence. Humans can be humans. Nothing like todays city life. The enviroment we live in decides how close to the land we are. I hold my tounge by not saying spirituality. It is one and the same though. That could be up for a long debate. Of course, they had to be humble with such privilege. I guess anglos did not care for all that. Not that they were the only enemies of Apaches. And not to say, that all angloes don't care or have the ability. All societies have people with the same outlook as Apaches just slighted one way or the other. It's all about freedom.

Jesse

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

I have no doubt that many of you are wondering what in the hell we are talking about.

Aurum has brought in a subject, without an explanation as to the terminology he is using. That may be deliberate on his part considering this comment:

"I cannot speak for Peter but I know he is deeply involved with the Chokonen, the Chihene, Bedonkohe and Ndeinda. Peter is a student of the Nagondzog, taught to him by the Shidaale' and their followers. I believe Peter's silence is not so much due to surleyness or offense, rather due to respect for certain ideas and ways that tend to take a beating when brought up on the forum." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Open forums tend to render a "beating" to any and all subjects. That is the real object here. Not disrespect, but beating at the foundation of accepted facts to see if they have the strength to stand up to adverse
questioning.

Once you open the door to any discussion, you must be prepared to defend your statements with facts. If you have the truth on your side, it will defeat any half-truth or outright lie. If your position is not worth defending you might want to consider not offering the subject up for debate.

Aurum, as usual, knows what he is talking about here. Armed with that knowledge and the truth of his facts, he will speak his mind. While he has offered a plausable reason for Peter's silence, only Peter knows for sure.

If Peter is a student of Nagondzoog, an old Apache term for fight or war,
and is being taught by the "Shidaale", grandfather's, and those "Shidaale" are from within the Apache Nation, he is a singularly fortunate man.

Nagondzoog is defined as a "tradition of militant self-sufficiency" (by some) today. You can pay a "professional Shidaale" for his services, or you can be taught by the "full blooded" grandfathers of the Apache tribe.
With the "friends" that Peter has mentioned before, I assume he is learning from the latter.

Aurum,

I swear I don't know how you do it. You just keep getting better and better. You are the consummate "Shidaale".

Peter's input would be of great value to this conversation.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Well Pete; You going to talk or be pettish; with your lower lip pooched out?? Bill

[Wiz]

Bill, I'd be surprised if Peter is even paying any attention to this forum any more.

[Aurum]

XX

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Why the unrelenting attack on Peter? If he has something to say, we will all see it. It's possible he is using another name. That helps to remove the personalities from the conversations, for awhile.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Wiz]

This should be a whole topic in itself!

Aurum, what you describe sounds a lot like the Bushido of the Samurai. It's interesting that this same sort of philosophy should surface in such disparate cultures. The main link seems to be that both were among the mightiest warriors ever known.