Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
late49er
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Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by late49er »

Recently I was in Downieville, California and came across a hardback book by a gentlemen named Sims Ely. The book and a number of letters from the Pheonix area were being sold at a yard sale by an elderly lady who was cleaning out her garage. Seems her husband had passed away recently. Her family was from the Pheonix area and the material had belonged to her husband. Anyway I bought the books and letters, for five dollars. I have read a bit of the book and have to admit it is quite good. Haven`t looked at the letters yet but they seem to be addressed to Mr. Ely.

I have prospected for gold in california for many years. Moved here 10 years ago from georgia. My grandad use to prospect a lot in the Dahlonega area of n georgia. Anyway we have our share of lost mines up here and i have never done much but just look for gold never lost mines. I am curious is Mr. Ely a reliable source and is the lost dutchman mine still being looked for.

Also is there any museum, etc., in the Pheonix area that might be interested in this material. I would be happy to donate it once I finish reading the material.

I just stumbled across this website today.

regards,

Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Sims Ely

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

49r,

Welcome to the LDM Forum. That is a personal welcome and has nothing to do with anyone else.

I would guess the letters would be a welcome addition to any Arizona Museum and perhaps to a few in Nevada. Who sent the letters and their content might have a great deal to do with the degree of interest.

If the book was signed by Ely, you may want to hang on to it. :wink:

You will get a lot of opinions as to how reliable "The Lost Dutchman Mine" is. If you manage to get some responses here, you might want to consider how early Ely and Bark were on this story. I will leave the bones for some of the others to pick over. :lol:

I hope you get a lot of replies, because it is a topic that I have a great deal of interest in.

Good luck.

TGH,

Now that football season is over, did you take a kayak into the Supes this weekend? :)

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

49er,

There are at least three museums of which I know that would have a special interest in letters from or to Sims Ely. One of the questions you need to ask yourself is whether or not you would want them available for research, as one of them does not have good research access. Other questions are who wrote them and what is their content. Sims’ career spanned many years and he had several significant accomplishments. For example, if the letters pertain to his time as manager of Boulder City you would want to consider their museum. If it is his time in Phoenix then perhaps the Phoenix Museum as they have (or had) a special interest in Sims. Several years ago I donated a bust of Sims from the Ely family to that museum due to their interest.

If the letters concern ONLY the Lost Dutchman Mine you might want to consider the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Another thought to keep in mind is that the Phoenix extension of the Arizona Historical Society is trying to build its collection and they might very well be interested in the material regardless of scope or topic. In any event, I would check with Arizona State Archives first if the letters pertain in any way to Arizona history; their collection policies have changed over the last few years and they now accept some material not generated by the state or territorial government. I believe the Ely family would also be interested in at least copies of the letters.

In any event, welcome to the forum!

Thomas Glover

PS: FYI I believe that one of Sims’ sons was named Sims and the younger Sims lived in the Phoenix area for many years. You might check to see which Sims it is.
late49er
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Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by late49er »

Thank you for the kind words.

I live in Reno, Nevada. I read a few chapters in the book and yes it is signed. Also i have read a few of the letters and it appears the correspondence between Ely and this gentlemen regarded some prospecting trips in the Superstitutions.

What is fascinating and I maybe confused about what I am reading is there seems to be mention that they did find gold somewhere. What is odd is in the book I think he indicates they didn`t find anything.

I will keep plugging along.

Regards
Joe Ribaudo
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Who's Book?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

49r,

Could you describe how the book is signed, and to whom? That might be of serious interest.

Thanks.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
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Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by late49er »

The book was signed by Mr. Ely. There is a personal note to a Mr. Tom Watson. I finished up the book today and really enjoyed his story. He seems quite the story teller and it seems like he knew what he was talking about. There are 17 letters of correspondence between Mr. Ely and Mr. Watson. From what I can tell Mr. Watson was a banker in Tonopah Nevada, and years ago was involved in the opening of unclaimed safety deposit box at the bank. Anyway Mr. Watson wrote Mr. Ely about something in the box and the two of them apparently prospected your area and did quite well with the material. One of the letters indicated they covered up the entrance to a I believe mine shaft once they had removed some ore. I really don`t understand a lot of what I am reading but they seem to be well acquanted with each other. Anyway hope this adds to you material and given the nature of this material any idea of who might be interested in this bit of history. Whoever receives this stuff I only want it to made available to anyone who is interested.

Regards,

Late 49er

Just a thought given the book and material is it pretty likely that this mine is mined pretty much out?
late49er
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Post by late49er »

goodbye
Last edited by late49er on Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Interesting Location

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

49r,

Thought you had gone to pasture. :)

Interesting spot you have given us. Very close to Uncle Obie's old claim.

There has been a rumor of a silver mine in that area. Seems to me that someone asked me about it a while back. Can't remember who.

Just north of Second Water Spring and on the north side of Second Water Canyon. The elevation is correct, for those who are interested in following 49'ers little game. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
azdave35
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obies silver

Post by azdave35 »

hey joe it was me that was asking about obie's silver mines he knew of ......about 10 yrs ago i went in there with obie's old partner warren.....he showed me the wash that the silver mines were in but i never walked up and checked them out
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Wash

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Dave,

I thought it was you, as we talked about Obie quuite a bit.

The spot 49'er has pointed out, is on the side of a wash. The wash runs in a northwest direction out of Second Water Canyon. The location is on the right side of the wash going up. Out of the bottom of the canyon, it is approximatly 920' in distance. On a map, it is a little over 850 linear feet.
The elevation change is around 175'.

If you take a look at it, let me know what you find. :)

Take care,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Hmmm...methinks a post was deleted.

The second L/L coordinates were a bit more interesting where the LDM is concerned...at least you were heading in the right direction (more or less).

The waterfall clue is interesting..... Anyone know where any "hidden" waterfalls are ? ......lol
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?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

Only Peter has that information. :) Actually, I have that information, as well as a number of other people, but it's a secret. :wink:

I guess I missed the post you say has been "deleated".

How can a waterfall that is being used as a landmark, be "hidden"? If the waterfall was, for instance, in Tortilla Creek, wouldn't it be considered "hidden" if you were in Peter's Canyon?

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

How can a waterfall that is being used as a landmark, be "hidden"?

Quite easily. The waterfall that concerns the LDM is indeed "hidden"...in more ways than one.



If the waterfall was, for instance, in Tortilla Creek, wouldn't it be considered "hidden" if you were in Peter's Canyon?

Thats like saying Niagara Falls is "hidden" if one were in Botswana......
Roger
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Hidden Waterfall

Post by Roger »

The "Hidden Waterfall" is probably the one contained in the Two Soldiers story where they mustered out of the Army at Ft. McDowell probably in the 1880's and travelled by foot from there to the Silver King. The entered the Supers from the North side and encountered a waterfall they couldn't go around and had to come back down canyon and then up on a high mountain to the South. It is there that they found a path that led them to the LDM.

There is at least one sizeable waterfall on Tortilla Creek that would be impassable if the water was flowing. From the details in the story in Bark's Notes, it would be hard to imagine another location.

Roger
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Roger,

I do not believe the waterfall concerning the Soldiers and the alleged LDM
landmark are the same. The waterfall in the vicinity of the LDM doesnt have anything to do with the Soldiers....except maybe for the name....
(and the 3 of you privy to that info know exactly what I am talking about...lol).

TGH
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hidden waterfall.

Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Hidden?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

I would love to know where "hidden" popped-up in relation to the waterfall that the two soldiers turned back from. Ya just can't leave history alone. :lol:

Is there someone who was closer to this story, who wrote down what he learned, than Jim Bark? Bark said: "They decided to make a short cut, went up this creek for some distance, came to a waterfall and could go no further.....There was no trail". They turned back from the waterfall and eventually got out of the creek "toward the King" side and "up on a very rough and high mountain". Still no trail. The terrain was so rough, that these two ex-soldiers made "very slow progress". Eventually they found a trail which (shortly) led them to the mine. They don't mention ever leaving that trail.

Along comes Joe Deering, acording to John Chuning/Jim Bark and says:
"Well, I was camped at a spring in a big canyon and was headed for the King. I had my breakfast, took my canteen full of water and went to look for my burro. I saw him about half way up the side of the mountain and about a mile and a half up the canyon and above the camp. As I started up toward him, I saw a deep worn trail and it was so much larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks than any trail I had seen on those mountains that it excited my curiosity. I left the borro and started to follow it and believe I followed it six or seven miles and came to the worst place I ever saw. "No mention of the "hidden" waterfall.

I only posted these quotes because everyone may not have the Bark Manuscript.

There was a stage line that ran from Phoenix to Pinal. The two soldiers were aware of the stage route. Why would they not take that trail to the Silver King? :?

Could there have been another way, another "short cut" and another "waterfall"? Peter says "no", and that is his area of research. Hard to argue with that. I believe Aurum is correct, when he says "hidden" does not refer to the waterfall but does refer to something close to the waterfall. It may even be Joe Deering's "trick in the trail". 8O

I am not that familiar with the story, but what are the "facts" that insure that the two soldiers entered the mountains from Tortilla Flat? A mile an a half from Tortilla Spring puts you almost to the top of Geronimo Head.
If you follow that trail for six or seven miles you will find a big surprise. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Joe

I never said the waterfall involved in the Soldiers story was hidden. In my opinion it was the waterfall they encountered in Peters Canyon.

The "hidden" waterfall is closer to the mine.

TGH
Joe Ribaudo
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Sources?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

"The "hidden" waterfall is closer to the mine."

OK, is there a source for that "hidden waterfall" story? My memory is getting way bad. 8O

Thanks.

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

OK, is there a source for that "hidden waterfall" story? My memory is getting way bad.


Yes.

I came across several mentions of waterfalls in conjunction with close-in mine landmarks. I will have to consult the clue list.
Joe Ribaudo
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Good!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

Good! I am looking forward to hearing where that story came from.

Respectfully,

Joe
Roger
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Hidden Waterfall

Post by Roger »

I may be mistaken, but I think to get around the Tortilla Creek waterfall, one would have to do it on the North side of the creek which the Soldiers probably would not have wanted to do as they were trying to get to the South and the Silver King.

If the Peters Canyon waterfall is the one in question, and I have been to it, Audum is correct that one would have to go around it on the East side up Tortilla Mtn. But then to add they would have to had to go back down and recross Peters Canyon and then up on Geronimo Head to hit the trail is not supported by the limited amount of detail in the Bark Notes which reads as follows:

"So they struck out toward the King, crossing Salt River, and struck a trail which they been told was the proper one to take. (Apache Trail? - my comment). They followed it for several miles to a creek crossing, where there was water. The trail afer that, appeared to run nearly north and the King was nearly south, so while they felt certain that the trail would eventually land them at the King, it must be a long way around, and they were tired. (Apache Trail has this exact turn in it just past were it crosses Tortilla Creek - my comment). They decided to make a short cut, went up this creek for a distance, came to a waterfall and could go no further. They came back down the creek, and finally got out on the side of the creek toward the King and up on a very rough and high mountain. (If they went up on the South side of Tortilla or up the East side of Peters, they woulld have been on Tortilla Mtn, both of which would have been toward the Silver King - my comment). There was no trail. They struck out, always trying to work toward their destinati9on, but making very slow progress. They ran onto a trail and such a queer place for a trail. They concluded to follow it and see if it wouldn't lead them out of that God-forsaken country. They followed it but a short distance, and were in high hopes when the trail led them trough a cave between the peaks. They went on a little further and came to a tunnel that had been walled up, with workings above and over."

The story seems to indicate that they got out of the creek and stayed on the high mountain until they ran across the trail. From the Apache Trail crossing of Tortilla Creek, the Silver King would have been Southwest of that location.

The "hidden waterfall" clue could obviously relate to the cave between the peaks as it is suspected to be on a lower elevation of the mountain from other LDM clues, so the possibility exists that water may have been concentrated off the mountain and flowed through the cave and created a waterfall where it opened in the ravine below it. This is where the LDM existed on a ledge above the trail the Soldiers followed below the cave and down into the ravine. They there found the famed walled-up tunnel with the workings above it.

Some conjecture on my part, but plausable.

Roger
Jesse J. Feldman
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

TO ALL,

For scientific, only the facts kind of researchers you sure are not using that aproach on this one. To assume an area or destination, based on dutchman lore etc., and trying to reverse engineer can be the wrong thing to do. Only if you know where the famed Soldier Boys gold was found can you successfully with all knowing reverse engineer. Confusion is all I see in your posts and maybe this explains it. My advice would be to forget everything you know and listen to the directions as if you knew nothing else. There are many possibilities. You might be suprised.

Respectfully to all,

Jesse
Joe Ribaudo
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Conjecture

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jesse,

How goes the dig? Don't see much new on your site. I trust all is well with you and the family.

This site opperates, mostly, on pure conjecture.

If you take Roger's last post, you will find he starts it with: "I may be mistaken, but I think......". He follows that with a "probably" followed by an "if". Further on in his post you get: "The story seems to indicate" followed by, "could obviously relate" and "it is suspected". You than get "the possibility exists" followed by "Some conjecture on my part, but plausable".

It seems to me, that a lot of logical reasoning takes place here, based on the "facts"/stories that are available to us. Real "facts" are as scarce as hen's teeth, so you use what you can get, pretty much as you have at your dig. :)

A story from a reliable source is just a story untill it can be proven to be a fact, pretty much what you are trying to do at the bottom of that shaft.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jesse J. Feldman
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Hey everyone, - Joe,

Holy %x&#! I finally got Joe to reason logically. It only took 37 posts. It is hard to sit here and say this or that is a fact if we were not there to witness it. There is exceptions of course, but those facts are not so helpful. - Books, manuscritps, etc. can be a puzzle. So we take what we choose to believe and try to make sence out of it all. We can get a long ways with that but I guess not to the L.D.M.

Sometimes things are not as they seem and I don't discount the dig from that. We have to distance ourselves from the dig. Only if we find some sort of defining artifacts can we fully embrace the dig. You are correct Joe. - We are attempting to prove just one of those stories. We have a real shot at this and a responsibility to see it through.

You guys do a great job on this site and a service to the community of history buffs, Dutch Hunters, newbies and oldies.

The family is well. The dig is a well. We are smoking along. Take care Joe.

Jesse
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