I just finished reading the Sims Ely book "The Lost Dutchman Mine". I didn't recall that he ever mentioned the dutchmans gold being in rose quartz. I've read this in other books and articles, and it seems to be a widely held belief. Does anyone know when the gold in rose quartz was introduced to the story?
Regards, Sluicebox
Rose Quartz
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Joe Ribaudo
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Rose Quartz
Sluicebox,
Interesting question, as are most that deal with history.
I am going to guess that it was Barry Storm who first described the "rose quartz ore". While he did not use the term "rose quartz", he did describe the ore. On page 60 of "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", published in 1939, Storm writes: Back in the mountains Walz and Wiser were examining their mine in a frenzy of delicious excitement. Rich ore such as they had never before seen was there. A huge vein of reddish quartz that was almost a third gold." That would make it "rose quartz".
On page 70, Storm writes: Jack Frazer of Mesa who is now the only person alive who talked to the ex-soldiers and saw their gold, said that as nearly as he could remember their exact words were: 'A reddish vein about a foot thick halfway up a hill.'"
This book is getting a little hard to find.
Moving forward to 1945 and "Thunder Gods Gold", the description had grown to this, found on page 62: "The shaft, he said, went down upon an eighteen inch vein of rose quartz which was studded with pinhead nuggegs of gold with, beside it, a three inch hanging wall of hematite quartz that was itself about a third pure gold."
The first true researchers on the scene, who documented their information, were Sims Ely and Jim Bark. Neither of them described the ore as being "rose quartz".
Much of Barry Storm's work should be read as fantasy, IMHO.
There are any number of people who came along later and claimed to have known Waltz, and seen his gold ore. We are assured that the picture on the cover of Helen Corbin's "Bible" is "Dutchman's ore".
Dr. Glover has done a great job of trying to "authenticate" ore said to have originated in Waltz's mine. Chapter 21.
It will be interesting to see if any of the real historians on this site, can come up with earlier "rose quartz" descriptions than 1939.
Respectfully,
Joe
Interesting question, as are most that deal with history.
I am going to guess that it was Barry Storm who first described the "rose quartz ore". While he did not use the term "rose quartz", he did describe the ore. On page 60 of "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", published in 1939, Storm writes: Back in the mountains Walz and Wiser were examining their mine in a frenzy of delicious excitement. Rich ore such as they had never before seen was there. A huge vein of reddish quartz that was almost a third gold." That would make it "rose quartz".
On page 70, Storm writes: Jack Frazer of Mesa who is now the only person alive who talked to the ex-soldiers and saw their gold, said that as nearly as he could remember their exact words were: 'A reddish vein about a foot thick halfway up a hill.'"
This book is getting a little hard to find.
Moving forward to 1945 and "Thunder Gods Gold", the description had grown to this, found on page 62: "The shaft, he said, went down upon an eighteen inch vein of rose quartz which was studded with pinhead nuggegs of gold with, beside it, a three inch hanging wall of hematite quartz that was itself about a third pure gold."
The first true researchers on the scene, who documented their information, were Sims Ely and Jim Bark. Neither of them described the ore as being "rose quartz".
Much of Barry Storm's work should be read as fantasy, IMHO.
There are any number of people who came along later and claimed to have known Waltz, and seen his gold ore. We are assured that the picture on the cover of Helen Corbin's "Bible" is "Dutchman's ore".
Dr. Glover has done a great job of trying to "authenticate" ore said to have originated in Waltz's mine. Chapter 21.
It will be interesting to see if any of the real historians on this site, can come up with earlier "rose quartz" descriptions than 1939.
Respectfully,
Joe
rose quartz
Joe; I think Milton Rose described it as so in John Mithcell,s Book that were written pretty early in the century. Bill
barry storm
there is a copy of storms book trail of the lost dutchman on ebay right now if anyone is interested
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Wyatt Westwood
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Joe Ribaudo
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Milton Rose
Bill,
I would probably be the last one to credit anything concerning the LDM, that had Milton Rose as the source. He may be factual in his stories, but if he is, you would need to throw out a good deal of the research and writings of Dr. Thomas Glover, something that I would never think of doing. . .and period.
If John D. Mitchell described the Waltz ore as being in "rose quartz" in his earlier work, he (for some reason) did not mention the "type" of ore in his 1953 book. That's altogether possible but seems an important "nugget" to leave out of the story. Gives it a bit of color.
There are some who, occasionally, look in on this forum, that are probably big fans of John D. Mitchell and Milton Rose. Mitchell claimed the LDM was in the Pinto Creek/Iron Mountain area. That dirt may be a bit crowded right now.
Mitchell seems to have a penchent for creating a little crinkum-crankum when a story gets to simple. I guess that's why he made the big bucks.
I don't have Mitchell's earlier book, so someone else will have to tell us if he actually describes the make-up of the Dutchman's ore.
Respectfully,
Joe
I would probably be the last one to credit anything concerning the LDM, that had Milton Rose as the source. He may be factual in his stories, but if he is, you would need to throw out a good deal of the research and writings of Dr. Thomas Glover, something that I would never think of doing. . .and period.
If John D. Mitchell described the Waltz ore as being in "rose quartz" in his earlier work, he (for some reason) did not mention the "type" of ore in his 1953 book. That's altogether possible but seems an important "nugget" to leave out of the story. Gives it a bit of color.
There are some who, occasionally, look in on this forum, that are probably big fans of John D. Mitchell and Milton Rose. Mitchell claimed the LDM was in the Pinto Creek/Iron Mountain area. That dirt may be a bit crowded right now.
Mitchell seems to have a penchent for creating a little crinkum-crankum when a story gets to simple. I guess that's why he made the big bucks.
I don't have Mitchell's earlier book, so someone else will have to tell us if he actually describes the make-up of the Dutchman's ore.
Respectfully,
Joe
I have a copy of John Mitchells book LOST MINES OF THE GREAT SOUTHWEST. (Rio Grande Press 1998)
Goes on to state "First Published in 1933"
Copyright, 1933, by
M.F. Rose,
Mesa, Arizona
About the rose quartz. This book states the following.
After describing the shaft and vein of quartz it says: "This quartz ledge is of the rose-quartz variety with a few inches of crystal hematite and quartz on the hanging side-wall"
Mitchell goes on to state: " the rose-quartz is generously sprinkled with pin-head size lumps of gold."
Now, being that the owner of the copyright on this book was MF Rose, does that mean the above is really Roses take on the ore? I do not know.
Personally, I think the ore is a tad duller in color...(hey that rhymes !) lol
The Gold Hunter
Goes on to state "First Published in 1933"
Copyright, 1933, by
M.F. Rose,
Mesa, Arizona
About the rose quartz. This book states the following.
After describing the shaft and vein of quartz it says: "This quartz ledge is of the rose-quartz variety with a few inches of crystal hematite and quartz on the hanging side-wall"
Mitchell goes on to state: " the rose-quartz is generously sprinkled with pin-head size lumps of gold."
Now, being that the owner of the copyright on this book was MF Rose, does that mean the above is really Roses take on the ore? I do not know.
Personally, I think the ore is a tad duller in color...(hey that rhymes !) lol
The Gold Hunter
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Joe Ribaudo
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Right Mine?
TGH,
I am still at the store, so working off memory, but I think that description is for something in Goldfield. Goldfield was considered to be in the Superstitions back in the 1800s. I will check Mitchell's later book when I get home.
Respectfully,
Joe
I am still at the store, so working off memory, but I think that description is for something in Goldfield. Goldfield was considered to be in the Superstitions back in the 1800s. I will check Mitchell's later book when I get home.
Respectfully,
Joe
rose quartz
Hah Hah Mr Joe; Weasel your way out of that mr joe!!! 
Good going TGH scrunch him good!! Bill
Good going TGH scrunch him good!! Bill -
Joe Ribaudo
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?
Bill,
Perhaps you need to go back and reread my posts.
Respectfully,
Joe
Perhaps you need to go back and reread my posts.
Respectfully,
Joe
rose quartz
Jo Joe JOW; You were bleating around for anything BEFORE 1936 ,s stormes book. Bill TGH really poured it on you there.
Bill TGH really poured it on you there.rose quartz
Now We have the question of which one Rose or mitchell wrote that piece of story??? humm? Bill Let,s see who guesses right???
Let,s see who guesses right???An interesting idea, that the "rose quartz" clue may have originated with Rose.
If Storm came up with "reddish quartz" at around the same time, that sort of casts suspicion on the rose quartz. Reddish quartz is not necessarily rose quartz. I have a large chunk of rose quartz, and it's a uniformly light pink color, unlike white quartz with reddish material mixed in. (Unfortunately, my piece doesn't have any gold mixed in).
The chunk of Waltz gold shown on the A&E tape, as well as the match box, both appear to be white quartz.
If Storm came up with "reddish quartz" at around the same time, that sort of casts suspicion on the rose quartz. Reddish quartz is not necessarily rose quartz. I have a large chunk of rose quartz, and it's a uniformly light pink color, unlike white quartz with reddish material mixed in. (Unfortunately, my piece doesn't have any gold mixed in).
The chunk of Waltz gold shown on the A&E tape, as well as the match box, both appear to be white quartz.
rose quartz
Whiz; true, quit true. BUT the story teller gave his signituire to the story too? Let,s see whooo can find iiiit???? Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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Correct
Wiz,
You are correct on all points.
Storm would have known the difference between white quartz with some iron impurities in it, and rose quartz.
Despite the descriptions that came along later, I believe the ore that Julia had was white quartz. Someone who is setting at home right now will need to do a little digging for that "nugget".
An interesting byplay here, is that rose quartz is often cut into a heart shape, it being considered a "love stone".
Respectfully,
Joe
You are correct on all points.
Storm would have known the difference between white quartz with some iron impurities in it, and rose quartz.
Despite the descriptions that came along later, I believe the ore that Julia had was white quartz. Someone who is setting at home right now will need to do a little digging for that "nugget".
An interesting byplay here, is that rose quartz is often cut into a heart shape, it being considered a "love stone".
Respectfully,
Joe
rose quartz
Joe; I beleive you are right in this one, I thought it was white toooo. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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Mitchell's Tall Tales
I have no intention of buying another Mitchell book, just to find out if he was the first to mention "rose quartz" in connection with the LDM. I have no problem accepting TGH's assertion that he was. Considering some of his other statements of "fact", I see no value in his stories. You might as well use "Ghost Gold" for reference material.
Bill,
Perhaps they both wrote the story.
Respectfully,
Joe
Bill,
Perhaps they both wrote the story.
Respectfully,
Joe
I did not say that the first time a reference to rose quartz was in the 1933 Mitchell book. For all I know, there could have been references earlier than that, I just have not come across any.
I do not beleive that the LDM ore is of rose quartz, though there might have been some rose coloring in larger pieces, further away from the gold matrix. White....and another color mixed in with it... is more probably on the mark.
TGH
PS
Hiked down to the mouth of Peters Canyon today from the Apache Trail.
Thats a creeped out area down there....even at high noon.
I do not beleive that the LDM ore is of rose quartz, though there might have been some rose coloring in larger pieces, further away from the gold matrix. White....and another color mixed in with it... is more probably on the mark.
TGH
PS
Hiked down to the mouth of Peters Canyon today from the Apache Trail.
Thats a creeped out area down there....even at high noon.
rose quartz
Hosa; It,s clear you don,t know your squat, The book was Mitchell,s with some of the Roses stories put in to flesh it out. If you read how the Michell ended his stories and how the Roses ended their stories you will see the difference. The Roses always tell exactly what the gold looks like in the mines that they have never seen. The Mitchell didn,t didn,t do that. So That story was one that Roses put in the book. That,s why the difference in the 1st book and the 2nd book of mitchell,s I think the elder Rose took the Mitchell on the money end of the deal of the book. Mitchell didn,t get horse bocky for his stories. If Mitchell said something was there then it was there. He had been there and seen it, NOT to say something could not have changed it in the time lapse there. YOU are struggling hard JOE BUT you are not there YET. Try again. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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To Poor To Pay Attention?
Bilge,
I will assume from your last post, that you are not going to pay any attention to what anyone says, as you have made up your mind and know what the "facts" are.
I have no problem with that, and will make one last attempt to make my own opinion of Mitchell and Rose known.
I have one piece of each man's work. My personal opinion is that both are (mostly) fiction, with Milton Rose having a decided edge in the "factual" end of things.
It is Rose who mentions that the ore from the LDM is "mostly white quartz
with some red iron". That is a direct quote to Rose, from Charles Roberts.
Roberts also said: "The ore specimen from the road is the origin of the 'Rose Quartz' in the stories."
I assume you have read "Rainbows End" by, Milton F. Rose. That, along with a first edition of Mitchell's "Lost Mines & Buried Treasures" are the primary sources I am using for this discussion. That's pretty scarce source material for any worthwhile opinion, but that's all I have, and that's all I intend to have when discussing these two authors.
I am not "struggling hard" or otherwise here. At this point in my life, my interest in the LDM is purely from a historical viewpoint.
"If Mitchell said something was there then it was there. He had been there and seen it..."
"Beautiful ornaments fashioned from solid gold found in recent years in the graves of a prehistoric Indian village in Garden valley in the Superstitions, would indicate that the rich ledge was known and worked by an ancient tribe which lived in that part of the country long before the arrival of the Spanish invaders."
"Later Jacob Walz was joined ba a nephew named Jacob Weizer. The two men made frequent trips into the Superstitions, always returning with their burros loaded down with rich gold ore which was sold in Phoenix, Tucson and Florence."
Two quotes from Mitchell's book.
I will leave the bulk of the "squat" knowledge in your capable hands.
TGH,
On Aug. 29, 1913, A. F. Banta wrote a letter describing the LDM gold as "placer".
In another letter dated Oct. 16, 1913 H. A. Sidow wrote: "Moraga claims that it was at the entrance to this cave that he several weeks previous had found pieces of the black rock supposed to be bismuth. And close at hand to this black rock or bismuth, Moraga picked up the four extremely rich specimens of gold."
Can you explain what there is about the area you hiked that makes it any more "creeped out" than any othere place in the Supes?
Respectfully,
Joe
I will assume from your last post, that you are not going to pay any attention to what anyone says, as you have made up your mind and know what the "facts" are.
I have no problem with that, and will make one last attempt to make my own opinion of Mitchell and Rose known.
I have one piece of each man's work. My personal opinion is that both are (mostly) fiction, with Milton Rose having a decided edge in the "factual" end of things.
It is Rose who mentions that the ore from the LDM is "mostly white quartz
with some red iron". That is a direct quote to Rose, from Charles Roberts.
Roberts also said: "The ore specimen from the road is the origin of the 'Rose Quartz' in the stories."
I assume you have read "Rainbows End" by, Milton F. Rose. That, along with a first edition of Mitchell's "Lost Mines & Buried Treasures" are the primary sources I am using for this discussion. That's pretty scarce source material for any worthwhile opinion, but that's all I have, and that's all I intend to have when discussing these two authors.
I am not "struggling hard" or otherwise here. At this point in my life, my interest in the LDM is purely from a historical viewpoint.
"If Mitchell said something was there then it was there. He had been there and seen it..."
"Beautiful ornaments fashioned from solid gold found in recent years in the graves of a prehistoric Indian village in Garden valley in the Superstitions, would indicate that the rich ledge was known and worked by an ancient tribe which lived in that part of the country long before the arrival of the Spanish invaders."
"Later Jacob Walz was joined ba a nephew named Jacob Weizer. The two men made frequent trips into the Superstitions, always returning with their burros loaded down with rich gold ore which was sold in Phoenix, Tucson and Florence."
Two quotes from Mitchell's book.
I will leave the bulk of the "squat" knowledge in your capable hands.
TGH,
On Aug. 29, 1913, A. F. Banta wrote a letter describing the LDM gold as "placer".
In another letter dated Oct. 16, 1913 H. A. Sidow wrote: "Moraga claims that it was at the entrance to this cave that he several weeks previous had found pieces of the black rock supposed to be bismuth. And close at hand to this black rock or bismuth, Moraga picked up the four extremely rich specimens of gold."
Can you explain what there is about the area you hiked that makes it any more "creeped out" than any othere place in the Supes?
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rose quartz
TGH; I think probley Mitchell was the 1st to say rose gold in a book. He was looking for treasure stories that were real when he was young and he couldn,t find any? Why? Because there were none! He found 1 book on lost treasure I beleive he Mitchell said. He after many adventures put out a book with the help of the milton roses father who had a printing press. Joe and his idol dr. blover do not like the mitchell BUT they just love brownie,s manuscript which is full of crap. BUT if you do not mind tell me what was spooky about the peters canyon? strange rocks= dead trees, what??? Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wrong Again
Bill,
As anyone who has read any of my past post can tell you, I am no fan of the Holmes Manuscript. It is always a wonder to me, how some of you guys can get so little from the written word.
I do have a lot of respect for Dr. Glover's work. Do you have any LDM "idols", besides youself?
What do you find in Dr. Glover's research that merits such derision?
Respectfully,
Joe
As anyone who has read any of my past post can tell you, I am no fan of the Holmes Manuscript. It is always a wonder to me, how some of you guys can get so little from the written word.
I do have a lot of respect for Dr. Glover's work. Do you have any LDM "idols", besides youself?
What do you find in Dr. Glover's research that merits such derision?Respectfully,
Joe
rose quartz
JOW; You are so deep in over your head you are just blubbering all over yourself. Ask Ron if he would beleive Mitchells words? Mitchell and the Rose both made some money finding some lost gold because they were some of the first into the business to do so. This garden valley hell I read about that being there in a treasure mag. 20 years ago . It was found by 2 men in the 1800,s. They never went back. Some others looked for the cave BUT could not find it. NOW smart man how is your notes coming into my tube while I am writting mine? huhhh answer that one. Bill
Bill