Is there any solid documentation about how many animals Waltz had? This could possibly be germaine to how long he could stay in the mountains (and by extension, how far in he would go), how much "fabulously rich ore" he could pack out with him, etc.
This is just a thought, I don't really have a direction to take it. Maybe it will give someone else another idea?
How many burros did Waltz really have?
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I_Found_The_Gold
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In "The Killer Mountains" it is reported that Glen Magill had interviewed Gertrude Barkley. Mrs. Barkley told Magill that she knew Waltz (or knew of him) when she was a little girl. She said Waltz had two burros. At one time she even knew their names. But, when Magill interviewed her, she could no longer recall them. Of course, it must have been in Waltz's last years when she would have known him. Perhaps he had more at another time in his life.
Well actually the thread isnt so bad..if one thinks about animals and how they related to the mine.
Herman Petrasch told Al Morrow that there was a trail leading right up to the tunnel and that animals used it. The source for this was allegedly Julia and Rhiney who got it from Waltz.
Various accounts say that Waltz and his partner tethered either horses, burrows or mules on a grassy ridge above the mine and then went down to the shafts to work them as animals could not be brought there.
The Bark Notes are full of anecdotes about how animals could not get near the mine area as the area was too steep and rough.
P
Herman Petrasch told Al Morrow that there was a trail leading right up to the tunnel and that animals used it. The source for this was allegedly Julia and Rhiney who got it from Waltz.
Various accounts say that Waltz and his partner tethered either horses, burrows or mules on a grassy ridge above the mine and then went down to the shafts to work them as animals could not be brought there.
The Bark Notes are full of anecdotes about how animals could not get near the mine area as the area was too steep and rough.
P
I suppose if Waltz only had two burros, that definitely would have limited how long he could go out. If he was just going into the Superstitions - straight to his mine, then he probably could have carried enough for a few weeks. But, that makes you wonder about the stories of him being gone all winter. Perhaps he loaded up in Phoenix. Then used those supplies, and then replenished at places like Adamsville or Florence - or even the Silver King community. This could explain why he was seen in lots of different places by lots of different people. Just what did he do? Wander around all winter, hoping to find another good spot for "dust" or a vein - for something besides his already establish glory hole?
Trips to his mine would have been relatively short affairs if he was limited by what two burros could carry out. Perhaps he worked the mine and cached it - as he always said he did. Thus, the length of time that we was supposedly gone. He would have had to replenish supplies. The reason for a cache was more than he didn't trust banks. It was because he would have been limited to how much he could have taken out.
I supposed he could have lived off the land. But... what? A deer or two here and there. And he had bad eyesight. So, that is hard to accept. I am sure he got water in the field. But he was probably dependednt upon town purchased goods to eat.
Trips to his mine would have been relatively short affairs if he was limited by what two burros could carry out. Perhaps he worked the mine and cached it - as he always said he did. Thus, the length of time that we was supposedly gone. He would have had to replenish supplies. The reason for a cache was more than he didn't trust banks. It was because he would have been limited to how much he could have taken out.
I supposed he could have lived off the land. But... what? A deer or two here and there. And he had bad eyesight. So, that is hard to accept. I am sure he got water in the field. But he was probably dependednt upon town purchased goods to eat.
Well, lets say Waltz took 2 burros. Each of them could carry 100-200 lbs of supplies. Assuming that Waltz had water sources over the winter....I imagine he could have stayed several months and lived off the staples of the day..bacon, coffee, sugar,salt, flour, biscuits and such.
Heck I could stay a month or so if I just filled my pack with food....I am sure Waltz cached more than tools and cobbed ore in his day too.....
P
Heck I could stay a month or so if I just filled my pack with food....I am sure Waltz cached more than tools and cobbed ore in his day too.....
P
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I_Found_The_Gold
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SC, what about goldfeild? I'm kind of a newbie but when i was in goldfield it appeared to have once been a real town. If so, Waltz could of easily took a daytrip down with his burrows and gathered more supplies. Its only a few miles i beleive. Maybe 5. Just a thought.
I'm new so please be nice to me !
Good point. I was probably conservative saying a "few weeks." It could have been longer. Especially if his burro were not ladened down with pots and pans and tools. He probably did stash stuff near the mine. Makes one wonder if some of this has ever been found... of course, not recognized for what they were. But, if they were in good shape, any number of people would have just kept them and used them without saying a word.
A frying pan left on a peak above the mine.....if the clue was true (and thats a big if)...and the frying pan hasnt been found...I wonder if the darn thing isnt either rusted away to unrecognizable junk by now...or if its buried by a wee bit of overburden, waiting for the diligent Dutch Hunter to
unearth it after all these years.
unearth it after all these years.
Frying Pan?
I must have missed something here...
What's the story on the frying pan?
What's the story on the frying pan?
In Bark's manuscript, Bark said that Rhiney Petrasch said that Waltz said that... (sounds like "hear-say?") one time Waltz left camp to get supplies. He came back and found his "partner" Weiser dead. There was a frying pan left at the site with holes shot it in. Waltz then buried Weiser. Bark, doubted the story because Apaches didn't waste ammo. In Ely's version - using Bark's info as a basis - told the tale stating that Waltz found the camp riddled from an attack - and that Weiser was "gone." In Ely's version Waltz found a frying pan that had been poked with a pick axe. Obviously Ely belived Bark's assimption Apaches didn't waste ammo - so he modified the story. It was a pick axe that created the holes. Not gun shots... The frying pan was then - in Bark's story - placed on top of a peak to the west of the mine (or was it the east? I can't remember...). In Ely story, I don;t think anything happened to the frying pan...
My info says that the frying pan was placed on a slope of a "middle" peak
to the west of the mine and that one could locate the shaft by simply walking due east of the frying pan till one found the workings. Course that was some 120 years ago and I imagine the local terrain might have changed a tad.
I am not sure I believe in this "clue". If the "setting sun" clue is correct (and I aint sure I believe in that one either) then the mine should be on a westward facing slope...the "frying pan" clue places it on an eastward slope. So....as I keep repeating...who knows???
to the west of the mine and that one could locate the shaft by simply walking due east of the frying pan till one found the workings. Course that was some 120 years ago and I imagine the local terrain might have changed a tad.
I am not sure I believe in this "clue". If the "setting sun" clue is correct (and I aint sure I believe in that one either) then the mine should be on a westward facing slope...the "frying pan" clue places it on an eastward slope. So....as I keep repeating...who knows???
>>SC, what about goldfeild? I'm kind of a newbie but when i was in goldfield it appeared to have once been a real town. If so, Waltz could of easily took a daytrip down with his burrows and gathered more supplies. Its only a few miles i beleive. Maybe 5. Just a thought.<<
I think Goldfield became a boom town some years after Waltz was in the mountains (if one follows the 1868-1885 timeframe more or less).
I think Goldfield became a boom town some years after Waltz was in the mountains (if one follows the 1868-1885 timeframe more or less).
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Joe Ribaudo
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East or West?
Peter,
I think you may be reading that clue a little tightly. This is the wording: "...that there were mountain peaks west and above the mine, and that he placed this frying pan with four small rocks in it on the center perk, and that if we would go down the peak due east, we would find the mine."
The number of peaks is not mentioned, so it could be three or even five.
That has nothing to do with what you said, just thought I would throw it in here.
The peaks were "above the mine". They were also to the west of the mine. There is no reason that a canyon or ravine could not have been crossed. If so, west slope is in the mix. Because you walk down from the peak and up a slope or another mountain has no bearing on the compass direction you are traveling. I don't think there is anything said in the wording that negates going up the other side, although it is not expressly mentioned. Bark also seems to transpose the four rocks placed in the frying pan with the (unmentioned) number of peaks.
The question that comes to my mind concerning this story, is why did Waltz take that frying pan up a mountain and make a monument out of it?
A little frying pan out in the mountains might be tough for anyone to locate, let alone Julia Thomas.
An interesting side story here is what Joe Deering said to John Chuning.
"John, there is a trick on that trail, oh, it is no trick either, but you have to go through a cave or hole, and say, John, it is high up and yet you got to go down to it." Maybe that peak was on Waltz's way out of the mountains. If so, it would appear that the "trail" must break over a peak and either turn to the east or already be pointing east when you get to the peak. If you trust these clues, that trail just got a little easier to find. It is fairly well accepted that the trail from Deering's camp went in a southerly direction. The next question that comes to mind, is when Deering said: "...I am going out the other way, toward the desert.", do we assume he means the desert to the south of the Superstitions, or could he have meant to the west? Sure would be nice to know what happened to Deering's ore after his death.
Do you think that Chuning might have left a few clues out of the story he told to Jim Bark?
Goldfield was established in 1893 by George Young. It was called "Youngsberg". For a great piece of history on Goldfield, read "Arizona: The Last Frontier" by, Joseph Miller. The section on Goldfield starts on page 263, and you may be surprised to find out that Goldfield was considered part of the Superstitions in those days.
Wow! Have I rambled, or what?
Respectfully,
Joe
I think you may be reading that clue a little tightly. This is the wording: "...that there were mountain peaks west and above the mine, and that he placed this frying pan with four small rocks in it on the center perk, and that if we would go down the peak due east, we would find the mine."
The number of peaks is not mentioned, so it could be three or even five.
That has nothing to do with what you said, just thought I would throw it in here.
The peaks were "above the mine". They were also to the west of the mine. There is no reason that a canyon or ravine could not have been crossed. If so, west slope is in the mix. Because you walk down from the peak and up a slope or another mountain has no bearing on the compass direction you are traveling. I don't think there is anything said in the wording that negates going up the other side, although it is not expressly mentioned. Bark also seems to transpose the four rocks placed in the frying pan with the (unmentioned) number of peaks.
The question that comes to my mind concerning this story, is why did Waltz take that frying pan up a mountain and make a monument out of it?
A little frying pan out in the mountains might be tough for anyone to locate, let alone Julia Thomas.
An interesting side story here is what Joe Deering said to John Chuning.
"John, there is a trick on that trail, oh, it is no trick either, but you have to go through a cave or hole, and say, John, it is high up and yet you got to go down to it." Maybe that peak was on Waltz's way out of the mountains. If so, it would appear that the "trail" must break over a peak and either turn to the east or already be pointing east when you get to the peak. If you trust these clues, that trail just got a little easier to find. It is fairly well accepted that the trail from Deering's camp went in a southerly direction. The next question that comes to mind, is when Deering said: "...I am going out the other way, toward the desert.", do we assume he means the desert to the south of the Superstitions, or could he have meant to the west? Sure would be nice to know what happened to Deering's ore after his death.
Do you think that Chuning might have left a few clues out of the story he told to Jim Bark?
Goldfield was established in 1893 by George Young. It was called "Youngsberg". For a great piece of history on Goldfield, read "Arizona: The Last Frontier" by, Joseph Miller. The section on Goldfield starts on page 263, and you may be surprised to find out that Goldfield was considered part of the Superstitions in those days.
Wow! Have I rambled, or what?
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
I related the clue from memory. Nice to know I was mostly correct.
I do not agree that a west slope is in play if the clue itself is valid. Why would he cross a canyon or ravine to place a frying pan as a marker when he could just as easily climb above the mine and place the frying pan there on the upper eastern slope...particuarly with Apache (remember his camp was supposedly just ransacked and partner either driven off or slain) lurking nearby.
As for Deerings trail and "trick". I have often wondered whether the "hole" was near the mine itself or somewhere on the trail he followed.
The fact that Deering found the trail and was impressed that it was worn down to bedrock indicates that it was an animal trail...yet how is an animal going to get thru a hole...and most anecdotes point out that the mine was in a rough area that animals could not reach. So perhaps the main trail took him into the mine vicinity and he simply followed every other trail in the area once he was on the scene, until he struck paydirt.
Perhaps the "hole" had to be gone thru off one of these other trails.....
I related the clue from memory. Nice to know I was mostly correct.
I do not agree that a west slope is in play if the clue itself is valid. Why would he cross a canyon or ravine to place a frying pan as a marker when he could just as easily climb above the mine and place the frying pan there on the upper eastern slope...particuarly with Apache (remember his camp was supposedly just ransacked and partner either driven off or slain) lurking nearby.
As for Deerings trail and "trick". I have often wondered whether the "hole" was near the mine itself or somewhere on the trail he followed.
The fact that Deering found the trail and was impressed that it was worn down to bedrock indicates that it was an animal trail...yet how is an animal going to get thru a hole...and most anecdotes point out that the mine was in a rough area that animals could not reach. So perhaps the main trail took him into the mine vicinity and he simply followed every other trail in the area once he was on the scene, until he struck paydirt.
Perhaps the "hole" had to be gone thru off one of these other trails.....
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Joe Ribaudo
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Following the Traiil
Peter,
Thanks for your reply.
I can see no reason for Waltz creating such a moument on a mountain peak, unless it was on the trail he was using to get away from the mine.
Considering the situation, it does not make sense for him to make a special project out of the "frying pan clue". Perhaps going to the east from the mine was not an option. There is nothing to say that he actually had to cross a ravine or canyon to reach a western facing slope. Crossing at the top of a saddle would be such a possibility.
Deering following "every other trail in the area" does not fit with the Chuning/Bark story that is generally available. Unless you have another story, I don't think that theory is viable, but anything is possible thru the fog of time.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thanks for your reply.
I can see no reason for Waltz creating such a moument on a mountain peak, unless it was on the trail he was using to get away from the mine.
Considering the situation, it does not make sense for him to make a special project out of the "frying pan clue". Perhaps going to the east from the mine was not an option. There is nothing to say that he actually had to cross a ravine or canyon to reach a western facing slope. Crossing at the top of a saddle would be such a possibility.
Deering following "every other trail in the area" does not fit with the Chuning/Bark story that is generally available. Unless you have another story, I don't think that theory is viable, but anything is possible thru the fog of time.
Respectfully,
Joe
>>Deering following "every other trail in the area" does not fit with the Chuning/Bark story that is generally available. Unless you have another story, I don't think that theory is viable, but anything is possible thru the fog of time. <<
I do not have another story. I can only state what I have seen myself in the area where I believe the mine lies. There are several old,old trails, some of which only show up at a distance, some of which are easy to follow in places, some of which lead to nothing....or space.
Logically speaking it stands to reason that if the mine was located in a rough area ...then the main animal trail would get as close to the workings as possible and then human labor would take over...leaving trails made by human feet, however faint...to this day.
I do not have another story. I can only state what I have seen myself in the area where I believe the mine lies. There are several old,old trails, some of which only show up at a distance, some of which are easy to follow in places, some of which lead to nothing....or space.
Logically speaking it stands to reason that if the mine was located in a rough area ...then the main animal trail would get as close to the workings as possible and then human labor would take over...leaving trails made by human feet, however faint...to this day.
how many burros did walltz really have?
Joe, a little correction. George Young did not establish Goldfield or Youngsberg in 1893. That was Hall and Sullivan. George young aquired the area and the Mammoth Mine around 1910 till about 1929.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Showing Your Age
Ron,
A source I have always used, and had great faith in, is "Arizona Place Names" by, Byrd H. Granger. My information came by way of Mr. Granger. I have no doubt you are correct, as I believe you were probably there.
Nice to see our old friend is still around and paying attention. Thanks for the correction.
I think there may be some conflicting "facts" out there concerning the town.
How about a casual report on what you have been up to?
Hope you and the family are all doing well.
Respectfully,
Joe
A source I have always used, and had great faith in, is "Arizona Place Names" by, Byrd H. Granger. My information came by way of Mr. Granger. I have no doubt you are correct, as I believe you were probably there.
Nice to see our old friend is still around and paying attention. Thanks for the correction.
I think there may be some conflicting "facts" out there concerning the town.
How about a casual report on what you have been up to?
Hope you and the family are all doing well.
Respectfully,
Joe
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I_Found_The_Gold
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:32 pm
This is surely not the time, thread, or the place to be asking this but i am suddenly curious. Approximatly how much money worth of gold is the "hidden treasure" composed of ? And if someone like one of us found it, would he/she be able to keep it all legally ? Once again i know this isnt the place to ask this but its too newbish to create a new thread for it.
I'm new so please be nice to me !
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I_Found_The_Gold
- Greenhorn
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jacob,s ldm
HUUUMMMMM weell I swan; It seems to me the old dutchman couldn,t go to the outhouse without everyone thinking he was sneaking off to his mine for another burral load of gold??? Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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ODD
IFTG,
Odd people = odd forum.
So.....What's new?
In answer to your questions, Ron would probably be the best qualified to explain what would happen if you found a treasure. Should be no problem working through our government and recovering the "treasure".
Your great grandkids might see a few dollars.
You assume the treasure in the Superstitions is gold. Since we don't know which treasure/lost mine legend you are referring to, it would be difficult to give you an exact number as to it's worth.
Respectfully,
Joe
Odd people = odd forum.
So.....What's new?
In answer to your questions, Ron would probably be the best qualified to explain what would happen if you found a treasure. Should be no problem working through our government and recovering the "treasure".
Your great grandkids might see a few dollars.
You assume the treasure in the Superstitions is gold. Since we don't know which treasure/lost mine legend you are referring to, it would be difficult to give you an exact number as to it's worth.
Respectfully,
Joe