Joe,
Anyone who buys his book has what they need to decode Spanish documents and maps. The only thing not in his book is the experience that he has in thinking like a crafty Spaniard. That is something one has to find out and learn on their own. It will take awhile for people to know what I mean, that only comes with experience. One thing he told me when we first knew each other was to understand them I would have to think like a Jesuit. I did not understand that comment for quite sometime. He then started to show me what he meant. I can’t emphasize that enough to people who want to learn this. Their level of deceit was amazing!
The only thing that you could refer to, as being left out would be part of the Spanish symbol code, there are hundreds of them. But what he did was put in the one’s most likely to be used, the ones he has seen the most of. The symbol aspect of this code is only about 20 percent. The rest is Bible, and Alpha code usage.
Even though I have knowledge of this code I am nowhere near as good at deciphering documents as he is, he has been doing it for 24 years. A lot of his experience is chasing monuments and trail markers to find that coveted last map rock. I have had knowledge of this code for 4 years but have not been able to say anything about it because of an oath that I took of silence, now that his book is out and he has released this information I can now say a few things about it. You see this information did not come easy for him. He was almost killed by a death trap. He has been very hesitant in giving up what almost killed him; I think you can understand that.
As I said earlier the examples he gives in decoding and showing how it is done is the Spider Rock of Texas and the Mystery Stone of Missouri, these are excellent examples of usage of their code.
You assume that the Document in question is actually referring to 6 mines, because you see it in text. What you see is not necessarily what it means. But when all is said and done it is referring to only one! They were good in creating false trails. If those other mines do in fact exist I would imagine each and everyone would have a map and a derrotero for it. Like in anything Spanish related one has to know the correct starting point, while other people maybe able to decode this document with the information I can tell you the starting point is just as crafty as the code itself.
I have not felt that you were a smart ass or ignorant, so no offense was taken in your post. As a matter of fact I had suspected it from you! So it was no surprise.
Nice catch about the Santa Cruz River, I was wondering if anyone would catch that, what has happened here is that the document was remade to reflect the actual name change of it. So whoever rewrote this to keep up with the times knew what they were doing. By that I mean they knew what was being told in the code and rewrote it as it should be to maintain the integrity of the information contained with in it. Now, I don’t know whom re wrote it but they knew enough to recopy it as it was written, and I mean exactly.
The true authentication of the document is the code contained in it; only one entity would know that information.
You made the comment earlier that you were surprised that I would be chasing this legend with only the Molina Document; I never said that I just had the Molina document. I have a map as well, and when it is decoded properly the same information extracted from the document is also contained in the map. I also have his 26-page analysis of both the document and the map that explains how he decoded it. I must say that when I first saw it, I was in shock!!!!! That is how I know it is genuine and authentic. Who ever wrote these documents had an intimate understanding in how to use the code. By the way, the map was not written by the same person who wrote the documents. The code styles are different.
I guess the only thing that I was a little miffed about Joe was your comment about me looking into this document a little deeper. I have looked very deeply into these documents. I accept your apology.
Respectfully,
Rochha
El Cerrotero de los Minas Oro Apacho
Symbols
Joe,
I feel that I should expand on a point that might need to be cleared up from my last post. In it I said that there were many symbols used in their code and I said some were left out. They were left out not to not give a complete usage of all of their symbols. But because the symbols aspect is only about 20 of what is being used. The Spanish in giving clues always, at least 99.9% percent of the time repeat the same piece of information over and over in a multitude of ways because of how the code is constructed. For example there are 4 peices of information in the map that I just mentioned that each piece is repeated at least 10 times. So don’t think that not having each and every symbol is going to prevent anyone from not decoding something. Because that piece of information will be repeated again in a different way.
Rochha
I feel that I should expand on a point that might need to be cleared up from my last post. In it I said that there were many symbols used in their code and I said some were left out. They were left out not to not give a complete usage of all of their symbols. But because the symbols aspect is only about 20 of what is being used. The Spanish in giving clues always, at least 99.9% percent of the time repeat the same piece of information over and over in a multitude of ways because of how the code is constructed. For example there are 4 peices of information in the map that I just mentioned that each piece is repeated at least 10 times. So don’t think that not having each and every symbol is going to prevent anyone from not decoding something. Because that piece of information will be repeated again in a different way.
Rochha
You lost me
Roccha,
You lost me on a few things.
Why would someone rewrite the document if they knew it's meaning?
If they did rewrite it wouldn't they add their own twist to confuse even more people? Another, unique code for example?
I'm having a hard time with someone saying to an underling or map maker. "Go update all topgraphical features on this map and this document. But don't change the codes!" Or an individual thinking "I better update the geographical titles or I'll never get back to the cache.........even though I know the old names for these places?!?!?"
It just doesn't seem to make much sense.
You lost me on a few things.
Why would someone rewrite the document if they knew it's meaning?
If they did rewrite it wouldn't they add their own twist to confuse even more people? Another, unique code for example?
I'm having a hard time with someone saying to an underling or map maker. "Go update all topgraphical features on this map and this document. But don't change the codes!" Or an individual thinking "I better update the geographical titles or I'll never get back to the cache.........even though I know the old names for these places?!?!?"
It just doesn't seem to make much sense.
Name changes
Knun,
Good point! You and I both live in Arizona, didn’t we just have a major freeway name change? Even though you and I know where Paestewa ( I don’t know if I spelled that right ) Fwy is, all the maps of Phoenix were changed, why? Because somebody may come along who doesn’t know it. Like someone just moving to the Valley, or Priest who had no participation in the origin of what was hidden many years ago, he now has a document is in control of and he know s nothing of other than it is coded. If the features weren’t updated it would be difficult in finding the starting point which is crucial in locating what was hidden by them.
Why would they need to change anything other than name changes when you have a code that is deceitful?
Rochha
Good point! You and I both live in Arizona, didn’t we just have a major freeway name change? Even though you and I know where Paestewa ( I don’t know if I spelled that right ) Fwy is, all the maps of Phoenix were changed, why? Because somebody may come along who doesn’t know it. Like someone just moving to the Valley, or Priest who had no participation in the origin of what was hidden many years ago, he now has a document is in control of and he know s nothing of other than it is coded. If the features weren’t updated it would be difficult in finding the starting point which is crucial in locating what was hidden by them.
Why would they need to change anything other than name changes when you have a code that is deceitful?
Rochha
Roccha,
I think you missed my point.
I know place names change....sometimes at an alarming rate i.e.; superstition landmarks.
The crux of my question was "Why change anything?" It really seems to serve no useful purpose. If anything leaving the information alone would only serve to assist the coder since it would add another layer of misconception to the info??
On another note. Does your friend have a web site. I've seen a site that involves lessons on treasure symbols and has pictures of a death trap found in Mexico. Is that his web site?
I think you missed my point.
I know place names change....sometimes at an alarming rate i.e.; superstition landmarks.
The crux of my question was "Why change anything?" It really seems to serve no useful purpose. If anything leaving the information alone would only serve to assist the coder since it would add another layer of misconception to the info??
On another note. Does your friend have a web site. I've seen a site that involves lessons on treasure symbols and has pictures of a death trap found in Mexico. Is that his web site?
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Rio Santa Cruz
Rochha,
Are you saying that Rio Santa Cruz is not the name used in the original document, and it was only rewritten with the modern name by those who later translated the original document?
John D. Mitchell claimed (in 1933) to have received this document from an
"old Mexican". He received it around 1913 according to his story. By 1953 his story of how he came by the document had change considerably.
The quotes by Mitchell were numerous and varied with each telling.
The "facsimile" of this document did not appear until early in the 30s. If someone actually had the original it might lend some credence to your theory that the translators changed the original Spanish wording. If that is what happened, and you are now using the "facsimile" as your original source, how can you be sure that the document was ever legitimate, or that the "code" remains viable?
Mr. Layton is using the "facsimile" of the "original" copy to decipher with his "code". The "facsimile" itself is an obvious "forgery" and that has nothing to do with the actuall words in the document, although they also condemn it as a fake. If the "facsimile" is a true copy of the original, than the original is a forgery. There are a number of items which would be obvious in any electronic copy of an (authentic) old Spanish document, which do not appear in this one.
Anyone wishing to authenticate "old Spanish documents" would first need to become proficient in Spanish paleography. Without that, it would be more than difficult to "get into the mind" of the early Spaniards.
That would be a requirement even if you were a Mexican.
I once met a man who had worked out a foolproof system for timing the stock market. He could easily prove his system by tracking it over a twenty year period. The only problem was, that the twenty year period was a bull market, overall. His system was worked out with the numbers that existed during that time. Historical numbers.
What I am trying to say, is that you can work out a system for just about anything if you have the time, and the history in front of you. That will only prove the history, not the system. for a system to work, it must work with the unknown as well as the known.
You have the best chance of anyone, working with Lou Layton. I am just not sure how successful that chance can become. I hope it is everything you both believe it will be. I, for one, will be looking forward to your updates on the progress. You realize that history will be your only reward, not counting the future book of course. I assume you have a contract with Lou for a piece of that action, after you do the leg work.
You have a really good thread going here.
Respectfully,
Joe
Are you saying that Rio Santa Cruz is not the name used in the original document, and it was only rewritten with the modern name by those who later translated the original document?
John D. Mitchell claimed (in 1933) to have received this document from an
"old Mexican". He received it around 1913 according to his story. By 1953 his story of how he came by the document had change considerably.
The quotes by Mitchell were numerous and varied with each telling.
The "facsimile" of this document did not appear until early in the 30s. If someone actually had the original it might lend some credence to your theory that the translators changed the original Spanish wording. If that is what happened, and you are now using the "facsimile" as your original source, how can you be sure that the document was ever legitimate, or that the "code" remains viable?
Mr. Layton is using the "facsimile" of the "original" copy to decipher with his "code". The "facsimile" itself is an obvious "forgery" and that has nothing to do with the actuall words in the document, although they also condemn it as a fake. If the "facsimile" is a true copy of the original, than the original is a forgery. There are a number of items which would be obvious in any electronic copy of an (authentic) old Spanish document, which do not appear in this one.
Anyone wishing to authenticate "old Spanish documents" would first need to become proficient in Spanish paleography. Without that, it would be more than difficult to "get into the mind" of the early Spaniards.
That would be a requirement even if you were a Mexican.
I once met a man who had worked out a foolproof system for timing the stock market. He could easily prove his system by tracking it over a twenty year period. The only problem was, that the twenty year period was a bull market, overall. His system was worked out with the numbers that existed during that time. Historical numbers.
What I am trying to say, is that you can work out a system for just about anything if you have the time, and the history in front of you. That will only prove the history, not the system. for a system to work, it must work with the unknown as well as the known.
You have the best chance of anyone, working with Lou Layton. I am just not sure how successful that chance can become. I hope it is everything you both believe it will be. I, for one, will be looking forward to your updates on the progress. You realize that history will be your only reward, not counting the future book of course. I assume you have a contract with Lou for a piece of that action, after you do the leg work.
You have a really good thread going here.
Respectfully,
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
When?
Gentlemen,
I don't believe the problem is the fact that the name of the Rio Santa Maria was changed to Rio Santa Cruz, but when the name "Rio Santa Cruz" was first used. If it was used in a document that was supposedly created long before the name was changed, you have a slight problem with the document's date of origin.
The document is "post" Spanish colonial period. Period!
Respectfully,
Joe
I don't believe the problem is the fact that the name of the Rio Santa Maria was changed to Rio Santa Cruz, but when the name "Rio Santa Cruz" was first used. If it was used in a document that was supposedly created long before the name was changed, you have a slight problem with the document's date of origin.
The document is "post" Spanish colonial period. Period!
Respectfully,
Joe
Book
Joe, Knun,
Sorry to have to cut our thread short yesterday but I had Grandfather duty at around 3:00 till just a little bit ago. My granddaughters spent the night with us last night and every time they see me on the computer they think it is a toy and they want to play with it. They are 6 and 8, sometimes I actually think their real ages are 12 and 14 with they way they act.
I don’t profess to have all the answers about origins and when a name change of a river happened or any of that. What I do profess to say is that there is in fact a coded message contained in it. Now with that said, how can I convince you Joe, and Knun that there is? Well the only thing that I can think of would be for you two to read his book, because I can tell you think Lou Layton and I are full of shit!
Here is what I propose, I will send him a check for $45.00 and have him send you two each a book. You read it and absorb what he is saying. If it is not what it is made out to be you get to keep it for free. If it is then you each send me a check for $22.50. Also, I want both of you to make a post in this forum about what you just read. Good or bad make an honest critic of his book for all the members of this forum to see. Sound fair enough? Prior to getting his book each of you go get a copy of the document in question and blow it up. I will direct each of you to the coded method used in the text so you can see what he is talking about, that is how confident that I am about his knowledge of this code and what is contained in the pages.
It is irrelevant to me when this document was made, what is relevant is what is contained in it as far as their code. The coded method contained in it authenticates it to the Jesuits. Why? Because they were taught this code prior to coming to the new world.
No Knun he does not have a web site and he is not affiliated with the one you were referring too.
So, are you two guys up for that? If so private message me your addresses and watch your mail next week! What have you got to loose?
Rochha
Sorry to have to cut our thread short yesterday but I had Grandfather duty at around 3:00 till just a little bit ago. My granddaughters spent the night with us last night and every time they see me on the computer they think it is a toy and they want to play with it. They are 6 and 8, sometimes I actually think their real ages are 12 and 14 with they way they act.
I don’t profess to have all the answers about origins and when a name change of a river happened or any of that. What I do profess to say is that there is in fact a coded message contained in it. Now with that said, how can I convince you Joe, and Knun that there is? Well the only thing that I can think of would be for you two to read his book, because I can tell you think Lou Layton and I are full of shit!
Here is what I propose, I will send him a check for $45.00 and have him send you two each a book. You read it and absorb what he is saying. If it is not what it is made out to be you get to keep it for free. If it is then you each send me a check for $22.50. Also, I want both of you to make a post in this forum about what you just read. Good or bad make an honest critic of his book for all the members of this forum to see. Sound fair enough? Prior to getting his book each of you go get a copy of the document in question and blow it up. I will direct each of you to the coded method used in the text so you can see what he is talking about, that is how confident that I am about his knowledge of this code and what is contained in the pages.
It is irrelevant to me when this document was made, what is relevant is what is contained in it as far as their code. The coded method contained in it authenticates it to the Jesuits. Why? Because they were taught this code prior to coming to the new world.
No Knun he does not have a web site and he is not affiliated with the one you were referring too.
So, are you two guys up for that? If so private message me your addresses and watch your mail next week! What have you got to loose?
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Lou's Book
Rochha,
You say: "It is irrelevant to me when this document was made, what is relevant is what is contained in it as far as their code."
The problem with that statement, for me, is that little word "their". If the document was created in the nineteenth or twentieth century you must surely realize that it is not "their" code. Instead, it is the code of someone from a different era than the document claims to originate from.
The later name of the Santa Maria River is only one of the problems which "date" this document to a later period. If the creators of the document were from the nineteenth or twentieth century, than why did they create the document at all? There is a simple answer to that question: To sell a story.
You see, Mitchell was the first to tell the story. The "document" surfaced well after the story was told. While the "document" was being used to "prove" the story, the expalanation of how Mitchell received the "document" was changing faster than a duck's ass closes when it hits the water.
While you and Lou can explain the "code" to everyone's satisfaction, you can't explain the forgery that delivers it. The fact that "canon" is used to describe a horizontal mine shaft. Why "patio" is used instead of criadero.
The fact that while "redotero" is important to your "code", it is a word that was not used or known by the early Spaniards. The fact that horn silver, described in the document, is not recovered from the depths of a mineshaft, but is found very near the surface.
In the "Map of Pimeria Alta 1687 - 1711" compiled by Herbert Eugene Bolton, the river that was later called "Santa Cruz" is correctly labeled,
Rio de Santa Maria, followed by [Santa Cruz].
Do you believe it would be possible for Lou, or yourself to write a treasure story, using the code and than sell it to others without any confirming evidence other than the "code"?
If Lou's "code" is fact, rather than fiction, why is he selling it rather than digging up treasure? He is only following in the footsteps of Chuck Kenworthy and many others. I know he is working with you on finding the Molina Mine, but the question I would ask you is: How many mines has Lou found using his "code"? I know his book will be convincing, it has convinced you. Kenworthy's book is also full of convincing "evidence".
Here is another story of how the "document" was first brought to light:
"In the early 1860's, when the French were trying to occupy Mexico, an ancient record giving a description of the old Tumacacori mines, was taken to Paris by "a personage," a relative of Madame Conde, wife of General Conde, Mexican commissioner. This record was placed in the National Museum at Paris, and copies of it were later returned to Mexico. According to this document, which carries some irreconcilable dates, the Opata mine is halfway between the Guadalupe and the Pure Concepcion mines. The Guadalupe, so says this record, is one league south of "the big gate" of the mission, probably menaing the front door, as this door faces south. Grom the Guadalupe to the Pure Concepcion is three leagues
south. The Spanish league in those days was 3:45 miles. Place the Opata midway between them."
"Lost Mines and Hidden Treasure" by, Leland Lovelace. Chandler, AZ,
November, 1956
The story has been around.
I do not think you are "full of shit" nor do I believe that of Lou. If I want his book I will plunk down my own cash. Your offer is generous, one that I have made to others, and kind. Thank you.
I will end this with one final comment. If, as you say, "the coded method contained in it authenticates it to the Jesuits. Why? Because they were taught this code prior to coming to the new world." than why would anything be left at this late date? The Jesuits have been back for more than a few years.
Respectfully,
Joe
You say: "It is irrelevant to me when this document was made, what is relevant is what is contained in it as far as their code."
The problem with that statement, for me, is that little word "their". If the document was created in the nineteenth or twentieth century you must surely realize that it is not "their" code. Instead, it is the code of someone from a different era than the document claims to originate from.
The later name of the Santa Maria River is only one of the problems which "date" this document to a later period. If the creators of the document were from the nineteenth or twentieth century, than why did they create the document at all? There is a simple answer to that question: To sell a story.
You see, Mitchell was the first to tell the story. The "document" surfaced well after the story was told. While the "document" was being used to "prove" the story, the expalanation of how Mitchell received the "document" was changing faster than a duck's ass closes when it hits the water.
While you and Lou can explain the "code" to everyone's satisfaction, you can't explain the forgery that delivers it. The fact that "canon" is used to describe a horizontal mine shaft. Why "patio" is used instead of criadero.
The fact that while "redotero" is important to your "code", it is a word that was not used or known by the early Spaniards. The fact that horn silver, described in the document, is not recovered from the depths of a mineshaft, but is found very near the surface.
In the "Map of Pimeria Alta 1687 - 1711" compiled by Herbert Eugene Bolton, the river that was later called "Santa Cruz" is correctly labeled,
Rio de Santa Maria, followed by [Santa Cruz].
Do you believe it would be possible for Lou, or yourself to write a treasure story, using the code and than sell it to others without any confirming evidence other than the "code"?
If Lou's "code" is fact, rather than fiction, why is he selling it rather than digging up treasure? He is only following in the footsteps of Chuck Kenworthy and many others. I know he is working with you on finding the Molina Mine, but the question I would ask you is: How many mines has Lou found using his "code"? I know his book will be convincing, it has convinced you. Kenworthy's book is also full of convincing "evidence".
Here is another story of how the "document" was first brought to light:
"In the early 1860's, when the French were trying to occupy Mexico, an ancient record giving a description of the old Tumacacori mines, was taken to Paris by "a personage," a relative of Madame Conde, wife of General Conde, Mexican commissioner. This record was placed in the National Museum at Paris, and copies of it were later returned to Mexico. According to this document, which carries some irreconcilable dates, the Opata mine is halfway between the Guadalupe and the Pure Concepcion mines. The Guadalupe, so says this record, is one league south of "the big gate" of the mission, probably menaing the front door, as this door faces south. Grom the Guadalupe to the Pure Concepcion is three leagues
south. The Spanish league in those days was 3:45 miles. Place the Opata midway between them."
"Lost Mines and Hidden Treasure" by, Leland Lovelace. Chandler, AZ,
November, 1956
The story has been around.
I do not think you are "full of shit" nor do I believe that of Lou. If I want his book I will plunk down my own cash. Your offer is generous, one that I have made to others, and kind. Thank you.
I will end this with one final comment. If, as you say, "the coded method contained in it authenticates it to the Jesuits. Why? Because they were taught this code prior to coming to the new world." than why would anything be left at this late date? The Jesuits have been back for more than a few years.
Respectfully,
Joe
Offer
Joe,
I can read between the lines in your last post, you think I am full of shit, or at least what I am talking about. I am curious as to why you don’t accept my offer, you have nothing to loose. Accept maybe $22.50 and make a post about a book. Not up for it Joe or what?
I have not heard from Knun on my offer, if he rejects it. I will make a post about it and choose from who ever is interested. I would prefer that it be from one of the members who has been one for quite sometime. Someone here that has made post and participated in the forum a lot. Someone who is well known.
Do you think the “ Peralta Stones “ are real? Who do you think made them? Who made the monuments and trailmarkers in the Superstitions? Who do you think the Tumacacori Legend revolves around? Why are there so many monuments and trailmarkers out here in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico? Who made all of those? Do you think it is possible that there are people who understand the coded method that was used back then?
I say that it is irrelevant to me when the document was written because of what is contained in it. I make that statement because there are elements of this code that proves it came from Spain! Elements I will not at this time divulge. Those particular elements make it of Spanish Origin. Anyone who purchases his book will see that. I am not here to pitch a book; you all have been wanting knowledge on the subject for quite sometime. I make a statement saying that I know someone who can decode this stuff and he has written a book about it. Revealing what has taken him nearly 24 years to learn. I have given other examples of what he has decoded, what about them? What about the Spider Rock of Texas?
Do you think that whatever you are looking for in the Superstitions Joe is still there? If so, why?
One more thing before I close, I have not based my belief on this coded method just from one document from one legend or whatever label you want to call it. I base it on seeing several things decoded or deciphered.
Respectfully
Rochha
I can read between the lines in your last post, you think I am full of shit, or at least what I am talking about. I am curious as to why you don’t accept my offer, you have nothing to loose. Accept maybe $22.50 and make a post about a book. Not up for it Joe or what?
I have not heard from Knun on my offer, if he rejects it. I will make a post about it and choose from who ever is interested. I would prefer that it be from one of the members who has been one for quite sometime. Someone here that has made post and participated in the forum a lot. Someone who is well known.
Do you think the “ Peralta Stones “ are real? Who do you think made them? Who made the monuments and trailmarkers in the Superstitions? Who do you think the Tumacacori Legend revolves around? Why are there so many monuments and trailmarkers out here in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico? Who made all of those? Do you think it is possible that there are people who understand the coded method that was used back then?
I say that it is irrelevant to me when the document was written because of what is contained in it. I make that statement because there are elements of this code that proves it came from Spain! Elements I will not at this time divulge. Those particular elements make it of Spanish Origin. Anyone who purchases his book will see that. I am not here to pitch a book; you all have been wanting knowledge on the subject for quite sometime. I make a statement saying that I know someone who can decode this stuff and he has written a book about it. Revealing what has taken him nearly 24 years to learn. I have given other examples of what he has decoded, what about them? What about the Spider Rock of Texas?
Do you think that whatever you are looking for in the Superstitions Joe is still there? If so, why?
One more thing before I close, I have not based my belief on this coded method just from one document from one legend or whatever label you want to call it. I base it on seeing several things decoded or deciphered.
Respectfully
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
OK
Rochha,
OK my friend, send the book to: 2125 McCulloch Blvd., Ste. B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403.
If I think you are "full of shit" I will not write it between any lines. Not letting someone know how I feel about them, has never been one of my problems.
I know you believe that the code comes from Spain. You may be correct.
As for what I believe about the Stone Maps or any of the other stories and legends that I know of: I have never let my beliefs concerning those things come before or between that which is important in my life. I only make one trip into the Superstitions each year, because the rest of my life has more meaning for me than my hobby.
I will read the book and learn all that you an Lou know now. I assume that is the point of the book, to teach everyone the code. I can assure you, I will be thankful. If you change your mind about sending me the book, I will understand and order it myself.
Actually, I think Lou has been at it for closer to 25 years rather than 24.
Your offer is more than generous, and after thinking it over I realized it would be an insult to refuse it. That was never my intention, but I can see how you might take it that way.
I hope we can put this behind us now, and all discuss the code once we have learned it.
I assume the Tumacacori Legend revolves around the Jesuits and the Opates. I have not spent as much time on that particular legend as you have, so I look forward to learning if there is another entity involved.
I do believe what I am looking for in the Superstitions is still there. I believe it because I find it each and every trip. Part of the treasure that I seek, is history. The other part is the search and the people I share it with. I expect nothing more.
Thanks for sending me the reminder.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
OK my friend, send the book to: 2125 McCulloch Blvd., Ste. B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403.
If I think you are "full of shit" I will not write it between any lines. Not letting someone know how I feel about them, has never been one of my problems.
I know you believe that the code comes from Spain. You may be correct.
As for what I believe about the Stone Maps or any of the other stories and legends that I know of: I have never let my beliefs concerning those things come before or between that which is important in my life. I only make one trip into the Superstitions each year, because the rest of my life has more meaning for me than my hobby.
I will read the book and learn all that you an Lou know now. I assume that is the point of the book, to teach everyone the code. I can assure you, I will be thankful. If you change your mind about sending me the book, I will understand and order it myself.
Actually, I think Lou has been at it for closer to 25 years rather than 24.
Your offer is more than generous, and after thinking it over I realized it would be an insult to refuse it. That was never my intention, but I can see how you might take it that way.
I hope we can put this behind us now, and all discuss the code once we have learned it.
I assume the Tumacacori Legend revolves around the Jesuits and the Opates. I have not spent as much time on that particular legend as you have, so I look forward to learning if there is another entity involved.
I do believe what I am looking for in the Superstitions is still there. I believe it because I find it each and every trip. Part of the treasure that I seek, is history. The other part is the search and the people I share it with. I expect nothing more.
Thanks for sending me the reminder.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Sorry Rochha
Rochha,
Sorry I couldn't respond to you sooner. I was on business in San Antonio and Corpus Christi since Sunday. It was Fiesta week in San Antonio and business was completed early.....Wow! Love that river walk. Corpus was just as enjoyable. I lived on fresh oysters and shrimp.
Thanks for your invitation concerning the book. I wasn't trying to undermine your conclusions....just had some questions on things that didn't seem to fit right. Seems that you and Joe already hashed out the questions.
Sorry I couldn't respond to you sooner. I was on business in San Antonio and Corpus Christi since Sunday. It was Fiesta week in San Antonio and business was completed early.....Wow! Love that river walk. Corpus was just as enjoyable. I lived on fresh oysters and shrimp.
Thanks for your invitation concerning the book. I wasn't trying to undermine your conclusions....just had some questions on things that didn't seem to fit right. Seems that you and Joe already hashed out the questions.
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Critique
Rochha has asked everyone to "stay tuned" for my critique of Lou Layton's book, "The Spanish Code to Treasure". Had he not asked for that response from me, I would be saying nothing at all.
Rochha,
You should know that there are many members here who could care less how I feel on any given subject. Those who feel that way don't need to read this.
I appreciate the fact that you wanted me to have this book and hoped I would find the same "truth" that you have found. I received the book today.
Mr. Layton's book is 65 pages of (mostly) double-spaced text, and was typed in a spiral notebook binding. A good number of those pages are only half filled or less. There are also a great many symbols.
That is no reflection on the worth of his "code", but only mentioned to let you know that the entire work can be read in about 15 minutes.
Much of the information in the book is unique to Mr. Layton's code, and much of it consists of previously published interpretations. I can find no fault with the conclusions he presents as they pertain to arriving at numbers, directions, distances or the verses of the Old Testament.
In chapter five he mentions "The so-called 'Molina Document'". He goes on to say: "Translating from Spanish to English destroys the coded message." That makes perfect sense. My major problem with the "document" has always been the mention of the "Rio de Sta. Cruz" (from the alleged copy of the original) in a document that was penned long before the river was changed from Rio Santa Maria". As soon as someone can explain that little discrepancy, I will promise to reconsider the "document".
Mr. Layton describes a stone carving found in "Wilson's Creek Battlefield National Park". On the next page is a "faithful freehand drawing of the stone and its text". Using his "code" he then tells the reader what the text actually means. There are around 30 words on the stone. The number "45" is coded fifteen times in the rock's message. No one will be able to argue with how he arrived at those numbers. His math does not lie.
Mr. Layton was denied permission to recover the treasure from the park.
In chapter 6, Mr. Layton uses the "Spider Rocks" from Texas to prove his code. Forty-five degrees is deciphered 18 times here and once again, you can't deny the math. It works. Mr. Layton received no "reply" from the owner of the land when he requested permission to recover the treasure.
The last two pages are titled: EPILOG. They consist of Mr. Layton's description of two "Booby-Traps" that he has encountered in his searches.
The list of "Units of Measurement" found on page 5 are questionable, to be kind. Not being Spanish or Mexican, and not speaking the language, I could be wrong.
On page 13, Mr. Layton mentions that he could give many verses from the Bible that were used by the Spaniards in their "code". He declines to do that because it would require "several hundred more pages". I for one would have liked to have seen the "first" hundred pages.
Lou Layton has found "no" Jusuit Treasures using his code. If he has been led to Spanish or Jesuit mines, he is not saying. I promised to read this book a number of times, but once was enough to convince me that the "code" works, but I remain unconvinced of it's practical use in the field.
If anyone can use it to find a lost mine or treasure, it would surely be Lou or Rochha. I wish them both luck in that endeavor.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Rochha,
You should know that there are many members here who could care less how I feel on any given subject. Those who feel that way don't need to read this.
I appreciate the fact that you wanted me to have this book and hoped I would find the same "truth" that you have found. I received the book today.
Mr. Layton's book is 65 pages of (mostly) double-spaced text, and was typed in a spiral notebook binding. A good number of those pages are only half filled or less. There are also a great many symbols.
That is no reflection on the worth of his "code", but only mentioned to let you know that the entire work can be read in about 15 minutes.
Much of the information in the book is unique to Mr. Layton's code, and much of it consists of previously published interpretations. I can find no fault with the conclusions he presents as they pertain to arriving at numbers, directions, distances or the verses of the Old Testament.
In chapter five he mentions "The so-called 'Molina Document'". He goes on to say: "Translating from Spanish to English destroys the coded message." That makes perfect sense. My major problem with the "document" has always been the mention of the "Rio de Sta. Cruz" (from the alleged copy of the original) in a document that was penned long before the river was changed from Rio Santa Maria". As soon as someone can explain that little discrepancy, I will promise to reconsider the "document".
Mr. Layton describes a stone carving found in "Wilson's Creek Battlefield National Park". On the next page is a "faithful freehand drawing of the stone and its text". Using his "code" he then tells the reader what the text actually means. There are around 30 words on the stone. The number "45" is coded fifteen times in the rock's message. No one will be able to argue with how he arrived at those numbers. His math does not lie.
Mr. Layton was denied permission to recover the treasure from the park.
In chapter 6, Mr. Layton uses the "Spider Rocks" from Texas to prove his code. Forty-five degrees is deciphered 18 times here and once again, you can't deny the math. It works. Mr. Layton received no "reply" from the owner of the land when he requested permission to recover the treasure.
The last two pages are titled: EPILOG. They consist of Mr. Layton's description of two "Booby-Traps" that he has encountered in his searches.
The list of "Units of Measurement" found on page 5 are questionable, to be kind. Not being Spanish or Mexican, and not speaking the language, I could be wrong.
On page 13, Mr. Layton mentions that he could give many verses from the Bible that were used by the Spaniards in their "code". He declines to do that because it would require "several hundred more pages". I for one would have liked to have seen the "first" hundred pages.
Lou Layton has found "no" Jusuit Treasures using his code. If he has been led to Spanish or Jesuit mines, he is not saying. I promised to read this book a number of times, but once was enough to convince me that the "code" works, but I remain unconvinced of it's practical use in the field.
If anyone can use it to find a lost mine or treasure, it would surely be Lou or Rochha. I wish them both luck in that endeavor.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Book
Joe,
Thank you for doing this, I appreciate your attention and time.
I would bet that there are a lot of people who care about what you have to say in your post’s, I know that I find most of them informative and on topic so don’t sell yourself short. When I say most some other post are just general discussion of some sort.
This coded method is not “ his “, he just figured out what they ( Jesuits ) were using.
As far as the “ Molina “ Document I know there are things on it that make people feel that it is a fake of some kind. I must admit that the Rio Santa Cruz part is hard to explain. There are a set of numbers repeated over and over in that document. They are repeated over in various ways, which are not coincidences. The map that goes along with it which by the way makes no reference to Rio Santa Cruz also has the same set of numbers repeated over and over, this is no coincidence again.
The units of Spanish measurement are in fact Spanish units of measurement. Some of the names for them have changed over the years but the distances are the same.
The practical use of this method out in the field is what I use; it has led me to many waypoints along a route to ultimately take you to something, the last map rock before the final destination.
Two coded documents repeat the same set of numbers, each number is repeated various different ways. Each document is pertaining to Tumacacori, the only entity that would be making any coded documents about that would be the Jesuits. The only entity that would know the Bible to the degree that is used in this way would be Jesuits. Who was in the New World at that time in history? Jesuits!
The two Bible verses that are referenced in the document and the map give a direction reference. One in the form of a number ( which happens to be one of the numbers repeated over and over ) and the other in the form of a geographical direction. Again, is this a Coincidence?
The only thing you need to know from the final map rock is a distance and direction, that can be told to you in the form of a number. You would also need to know the correct starting point as well.
Chuck Kenworthy has many books that he has written, the one about the Lost Dutchman gives excellent examples of letter manipulations, some of those examples you will find on the Molina Document and the Map of Tumacacori.
Again, Joe, Thanks for your time, effort and energy in this.
Rochha
Thank you for doing this, I appreciate your attention and time.
I would bet that there are a lot of people who care about what you have to say in your post’s, I know that I find most of them informative and on topic so don’t sell yourself short. When I say most some other post are just general discussion of some sort.
This coded method is not “ his “, he just figured out what they ( Jesuits ) were using.
As far as the “ Molina “ Document I know there are things on it that make people feel that it is a fake of some kind. I must admit that the Rio Santa Cruz part is hard to explain. There are a set of numbers repeated over and over in that document. They are repeated over in various ways, which are not coincidences. The map that goes along with it which by the way makes no reference to Rio Santa Cruz also has the same set of numbers repeated over and over, this is no coincidence again.
The units of Spanish measurement are in fact Spanish units of measurement. Some of the names for them have changed over the years but the distances are the same.
The practical use of this method out in the field is what I use; it has led me to many waypoints along a route to ultimately take you to something, the last map rock before the final destination.
Two coded documents repeat the same set of numbers, each number is repeated various different ways. Each document is pertaining to Tumacacori, the only entity that would be making any coded documents about that would be the Jesuits. The only entity that would know the Bible to the degree that is used in this way would be Jesuits. Who was in the New World at that time in history? Jesuits!
The two Bible verses that are referenced in the document and the map give a direction reference. One in the form of a number ( which happens to be one of the numbers repeated over and over ) and the other in the form of a geographical direction. Again, is this a Coincidence?
The only thing you need to know from the final map rock is a distance and direction, that can be told to you in the form of a number. You would also need to know the correct starting point as well.
Chuck Kenworthy has many books that he has written, the one about the Lost Dutchman gives excellent examples of letter manipulations, some of those examples you will find on the Molina Document and the Map of Tumacacori.
Again, Joe, Thanks for your time, effort and energy in this.
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The "Jesuit"Code
Rochha,
Thank you for your kind words. I wish I could have found a lot more to endorse in Lou's book. As you have looked much deeper into the "code" and Lou's interpretation of it than I, there is little doubt that you have found a great deal to convince you that it is truthful in fact.
You are correct concerning most of Lou's "Units of Measurement" as they were known during the period in question. There are a few problems, I believe.
The first thing I notice was Lou's US measurement for the "vara". Lou places it at "30 American inches". While the length of the vara has changed many times in it's history, I am not sure that it was ever
"30 inches". The vara was set (as a legal value) in 1900 at 33 1/3 inches.
Probably the most accepted length is 32.909 SAE inches. During the period of Mexico's and California's Spanish and Mexican exploration, there were at least 22 different lengths for the vara. In the late 19th. century the vara was usually accepted as being 32.909 inches.
Many Spanish measurements were tied to the human anatomy. The "palmo" that Lou uses in his example is one of them. The problem with Lou's "palmo", is that he sets it at "7.5 American inches". I have never seen a document listing Spanish or Mexican measurements that claims 7.5 inches. The first problem is that there are two (2) measurements which use "palmo". The first is "palmo menor". This means "small palm". It is about 2.74 SAE inches. The second is
"palmo mayor" which, of course, means "large palm". It is exactly three times larger than the menor, or 8.227 SAE inches and is precisely 1/4 of a vara. Both are "Roman" derivatives.
Lou also picks "15 American inches" for the "Codo". The problem, once again, is that there are two (2) codos. The Spanish word for elbow comes into play here. The first is "codo geometrico". It is suppose to be the distance between the elbow and the outstretched middle finger. That measurement is set at "16.45 SAE inches" by the Spanish. The "codo real" is the second measurement used. It was use primarily in shipbuilding and is 1/3 larger than the "codo geometrico" and was exactly
8 "palmos menores". It was approximately 1.83 SAE feet.
Lou uses a misspelled word for one of his measurements. He uses "Geme" instead of "Jeme" which replaces the proper word for the measurement he reaches. That word is "sesma" which equals 6 pulgadas or 5.48 SAE inches.
I am at a complete loss for his use of "Coto" as a measurement.
Lou is in good company with his "Units of Measurement". Pick up any of the popular (treasure hunters) books on the subject, and you will be enlightened.
There are a good many sources for this information. If anyone is interested, I will be happy to list a few.
You asked "Who was in the New World at that time in history? Jesuits!"
I believe you know your history better than that. The Jesuits were not alone here.
It seems to me, that Lou has "put the cart before the horse" here, so to speak. Shouldn't he find a mine or treasure with his code before he divulges it to the world? With the number of children he has, why tell strangers? Passing strange.
Lou's book does raise some interesting questions.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thank you for your kind words. I wish I could have found a lot more to endorse in Lou's book. As you have looked much deeper into the "code" and Lou's interpretation of it than I, there is little doubt that you have found a great deal to convince you that it is truthful in fact.
You are correct concerning most of Lou's "Units of Measurement" as they were known during the period in question. There are a few problems, I believe.
The first thing I notice was Lou's US measurement for the "vara". Lou places it at "30 American inches". While the length of the vara has changed many times in it's history, I am not sure that it was ever
"30 inches". The vara was set (as a legal value) in 1900 at 33 1/3 inches.
Probably the most accepted length is 32.909 SAE inches. During the period of Mexico's and California's Spanish and Mexican exploration, there were at least 22 different lengths for the vara. In the late 19th. century the vara was usually accepted as being 32.909 inches.
Many Spanish measurements were tied to the human anatomy. The "palmo" that Lou uses in his example is one of them. The problem with Lou's "palmo", is that he sets it at "7.5 American inches". I have never seen a document listing Spanish or Mexican measurements that claims 7.5 inches. The first problem is that there are two (2) measurements which use "palmo". The first is "palmo menor". This means "small palm". It is about 2.74 SAE inches. The second is
"palmo mayor" which, of course, means "large palm". It is exactly three times larger than the menor, or 8.227 SAE inches and is precisely 1/4 of a vara. Both are "Roman" derivatives.
Lou also picks "15 American inches" for the "Codo". The problem, once again, is that there are two (2) codos. The Spanish word for elbow comes into play here. The first is "codo geometrico". It is suppose to be the distance between the elbow and the outstretched middle finger. That measurement is set at "16.45 SAE inches" by the Spanish. The "codo real" is the second measurement used. It was use primarily in shipbuilding and is 1/3 larger than the "codo geometrico" and was exactly
8 "palmos menores". It was approximately 1.83 SAE feet.
Lou uses a misspelled word for one of his measurements. He uses "Geme" instead of "Jeme" which replaces the proper word for the measurement he reaches. That word is "sesma" which equals 6 pulgadas or 5.48 SAE inches.
I am at a complete loss for his use of "Coto" as a measurement.
Lou is in good company with his "Units of Measurement". Pick up any of the popular (treasure hunters) books on the subject, and you will be enlightened.
There are a good many sources for this information. If anyone is interested, I will be happy to list a few.
You asked "Who was in the New World at that time in history? Jesuits!"
I believe you know your history better than that. The Jesuits were not alone here.
It seems to me, that Lou has "put the cart before the horse" here, so to speak. Shouldn't he find a mine or treasure with his code before he divulges it to the world? With the number of children he has, why tell strangers? Passing strange.
Lou's book does raise some interesting questions.
Respectfully,
Joe
-
Lou Layton
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:08 pm
Book
Joe, I have just joined this forum so I could respond to your critique of my book. Referring to your post of Apr 23 wherin you state that you have only one problem with the Molina Document and that is it mentions the Santa Cruz river even though the Document was penned long before the river was named Santa Cruz. Joe, how do you know that? I have worked on that Document for a long time and have translated it, studied it, and decyphered it, yet I have never been able to date it. The dates shown in the Document itself cannot be used to date it because the entire Document is just a cover story for the coded message hidden within. Actually, nothing in the Document can be relied upon to be the truth or factual. So how did you date it? When I was describing how the Bible code worked I said I would not list all the other passages in the Bible that were used by the Spanish as that would require my writing several hundred mor pages. In your critique you state you would like to have seen the hundred more pages. Joe, since when does the size of a book determine it's credibility? I explained the Bible code and gave several examples of how it worked. Why wasn't that enough? In the last part of your post you state that after reading the book you are convinced the code works but remain unconvinced of it's pratical use in the field. I really don't understand that! If the code works, and it does, why don't you think it would work in the field? Why don't you apply the codes in the field before saying you don't think they will work? You also state that the units of measurement I relate in the book are questionable but then you go on to say you could be wrong because you are neither Spanish nor Mexican. Joe, the units listed in the book ARE CORRECT! Lou Layton
Book
Joe,
You are missing the point badly about Spanish Units of Measurement! You are too busy trying to find fault in what is written and what I am posting that you are not grasping what is in the book. Maybe you should read it again and again and understand what it is saying. You do not understand how Spanish Units of measurement is used; I'll give you a hint.... Don't focus on the word used for each measurement or the actual unit, but the number that represents each unit of measurement. Example....Apply the alphabet code to the word " templo ", then look at the units of measurement examples. See the number?
Looks like I really need to choose my words or phrases well when I make a post about this because you try to find something that I have said wrong or out of context and kindly bring it to my attention. Like when I said, " Who was in the New World back then...Jesuits " The point I was trying to make with you then was who in the New World was using a coded method set up by the King of Spain back then to hide gold or silver and Church Artifacts? Of course there were other people there then. And yes, I do know my history!!!!! Again, thanks for bring that to my attention.
I can tell that you have never followed trail markers like they are intended
to be used before in finding some thing out in the field, for if you did you
would know that when you find a trail maker not only will it give you a
direction but a distance as well to the next marker. That information will
be told to you somehow someway, it has too. Or how would you know how far to go or what direction to go in for the next waypoint or marker. And how would they give you that information? In the form of numbers! They will have a sign or a letter or a carving that when decoded properly equates to a number telling you how far to go and in what direction.
Just because you have not found documents to back up what he is saying does that mean he can't possibly be right? How do I know that he is right about the actual vara measurement? Because he has paced it off out in the field finding the next waypoint or marker that's how. Do you think he just made up a number and said this is the length with out testing it first? I think you have underestimated Lou's intelligence level and his integrity, he is very knowledgeable when it comes to the Spanish Colonial Era.
If you are implying that he is selling some bogus book because he has a lot of mouths to feed you are way off the mark, I find that comment very
insulting and out of line. Is this another example of your boorishness
behavior as you have indicated to me earlier?
In closing Joe, quit trying to find fault in what’s written and find the
content of what is being written, you just might learn something.
Respectfully,
Rochha
You are missing the point badly about Spanish Units of Measurement! You are too busy trying to find fault in what is written and what I am posting that you are not grasping what is in the book. Maybe you should read it again and again and understand what it is saying. You do not understand how Spanish Units of measurement is used; I'll give you a hint.... Don't focus on the word used for each measurement or the actual unit, but the number that represents each unit of measurement. Example....Apply the alphabet code to the word " templo ", then look at the units of measurement examples. See the number?
Looks like I really need to choose my words or phrases well when I make a post about this because you try to find something that I have said wrong or out of context and kindly bring it to my attention. Like when I said, " Who was in the New World back then...Jesuits " The point I was trying to make with you then was who in the New World was using a coded method set up by the King of Spain back then to hide gold or silver and Church Artifacts? Of course there were other people there then. And yes, I do know my history!!!!! Again, thanks for bring that to my attention.
I can tell that you have never followed trail markers like they are intended
to be used before in finding some thing out in the field, for if you did you
would know that when you find a trail maker not only will it give you a
direction but a distance as well to the next marker. That information will
be told to you somehow someway, it has too. Or how would you know how far to go or what direction to go in for the next waypoint or marker. And how would they give you that information? In the form of numbers! They will have a sign or a letter or a carving that when decoded properly equates to a number telling you how far to go and in what direction.
Just because you have not found documents to back up what he is saying does that mean he can't possibly be right? How do I know that he is right about the actual vara measurement? Because he has paced it off out in the field finding the next waypoint or marker that's how. Do you think he just made up a number and said this is the length with out testing it first? I think you have underestimated Lou's intelligence level and his integrity, he is very knowledgeable when it comes to the Spanish Colonial Era.
If you are implying that he is selling some bogus book because he has a lot of mouths to feed you are way off the mark, I find that comment very
insulting and out of line. Is this another example of your boorishness
behavior as you have indicated to me earlier?
In closing Joe, quit trying to find fault in what’s written and find the
content of what is being written, you just might learn something.
Respectfully,
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Tempest
Lou,
Let me be the first to welcome you to the LDM Forum. I have no doubt that you will provide a great deal of knowledge to the members. I hope you did not join just to respond to my critique of your book.
The one thing I would like to insist upon first, is that you use my own words when you quote me. That will make my responses a lot easier and faster.
[Lou]
Referring to your post of Apr 23 wherin you state that you have only one problem with the Molina Document and that is it mentions the Santa Cruz river even though the Document was penned long before the river was named Santa Cruz.
[Joe]
"My major problem with the "document" has always been the mention of the "Rio de Sta. Cruz" (from the alleged copy of the original) in a document that was penned long before the river was changed from Rio Santa Maria". As soon as someone can explain that little discrepancy, I will promise to reconsider the "document".
I have many problems with the "Molina Document" and never said that I "only have one problem".
[Lou]
"When I was describing how the Bible code worked I said I would not list all the other passages in the Bible that were used by the Spanish as that would require my writing several hundred mor pages. In your critique you state you would like to have seen the hundred more pages. Joe, since when does the size of a book determine it's credibility?"
[Joe]
"On page 13, Mr. Layton mentions that he could give many verses from the Bible that were used by the Spaniards in their "code". He declines to do that because it would require "several hundred more pages". I for one would have liked to have seen the "first" hundred pages."
It is my humble opinion, that the number of "proofs" in your book, would not be acceptable to most readers. I could be wrong and if I am, they will be coming to your defense rather quickly.
You go on to say: "I have worked on that Document for a long time and have translated it, studied it, and decyphered it, yet I have never been able to date it."
I will venture to guess, that you have never done one minute of work on
"the document", and that the only reason you can't "date it" is because the "original" document has never been seen by the public. If it had, it would have been dated to the nineteenth or possiby the twentieth century. My money would be on the twentieth. You have, more than likely, only seen copies of what is claimed to be the original, just like the rest of us.
You are correct in saying that I don't know what date the "document" was penned. Here is one of the problems that anyone would run into if trying to do that:
[Lou]
"The dates shown in the Document itself cannot be used to date it because the entire Document is just a cover story for the coded message hidden within. Actually, nothing in the Document can be relied upon to be the truth or factual." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)
I will accept your statement that "the units listed in the book ARE CORRECT!" My doubts were based on the following sources:
THE DOMINICAN MISSION FRONTIER OF LOWER CALIFORNIA by,
Peveril Meigs, III.
The many works of Charles Polzer, S.J.
The articles by the California Mission Studies Association: Weights and Measurements in California's Mission Period.
As you have hinted, none of those sources (or any others) make any difference, because they are unaware of the "code".
[Lou]
"In the last part of your post you state that after reading the book you are convinced the code works but remain unconvinced of it's pratical use in the field. I really don't understand that! If the code works, and it does, why don't you think it would work in the field?"
The whole idea of a secret Spanish/Jesuit/Mexican code is hard to swallow.
How long do you believe this "code" existed? Do you believe, as Rochha has stated, that there was "a coded method set up by the King of Spain back then to hide gold or silver and Church Artifacts"? If so, it was so secret that no one in Spain today knows anything about it. It was so secret that every Spanish prospector and miner knew it, but never hinted at it's existence. How many people do you think kept this secret over the years?
If your book has merit (value), it will be a success. What I believe or learned from it is of no consequence. Rochha has balanced out the opinions quite well. Your statement that things "ARE CORRECT" has little weight in presenting a convincing arguement for your work. A critique by it's nature is an opinion. Mine is no better than your's, or Rochha's.
I have never said that your "code" was false. Quite the opposite actually.
Have you found a mine or treasure using it? That is how it would be proven in the "field".
Thank you for your response and, once again, welcome.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Let me be the first to welcome you to the LDM Forum. I have no doubt that you will provide a great deal of knowledge to the members. I hope you did not join just to respond to my critique of your book.
The one thing I would like to insist upon first, is that you use my own words when you quote me. That will make my responses a lot easier and faster.
[Lou]
Referring to your post of Apr 23 wherin you state that you have only one problem with the Molina Document and that is it mentions the Santa Cruz river even though the Document was penned long before the river was named Santa Cruz.
[Joe]
"My major problem with the "document" has always been the mention of the "Rio de Sta. Cruz" (from the alleged copy of the original) in a document that was penned long before the river was changed from Rio Santa Maria". As soon as someone can explain that little discrepancy, I will promise to reconsider the "document".
I have many problems with the "Molina Document" and never said that I "only have one problem".
[Lou]
"When I was describing how the Bible code worked I said I would not list all the other passages in the Bible that were used by the Spanish as that would require my writing several hundred mor pages. In your critique you state you would like to have seen the hundred more pages. Joe, since when does the size of a book determine it's credibility?"
[Joe]
"On page 13, Mr. Layton mentions that he could give many verses from the Bible that were used by the Spaniards in their "code". He declines to do that because it would require "several hundred more pages". I for one would have liked to have seen the "first" hundred pages."
It is my humble opinion, that the number of "proofs" in your book, would not be acceptable to most readers. I could be wrong and if I am, they will be coming to your defense rather quickly.
You go on to say: "I have worked on that Document for a long time and have translated it, studied it, and decyphered it, yet I have never been able to date it."
I will venture to guess, that you have never done one minute of work on
"the document", and that the only reason you can't "date it" is because the "original" document has never been seen by the public. If it had, it would have been dated to the nineteenth or possiby the twentieth century. My money would be on the twentieth. You have, more than likely, only seen copies of what is claimed to be the original, just like the rest of us.
You are correct in saying that I don't know what date the "document" was penned. Here is one of the problems that anyone would run into if trying to do that:
[Lou]
"The dates shown in the Document itself cannot be used to date it because the entire Document is just a cover story for the coded message hidden within. Actually, nothing in the Document can be relied upon to be the truth or factual." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)
I will accept your statement that "the units listed in the book ARE CORRECT!" My doubts were based on the following sources:
THE DOMINICAN MISSION FRONTIER OF LOWER CALIFORNIA by,
Peveril Meigs, III.
The many works of Charles Polzer, S.J.
The articles by the California Mission Studies Association: Weights and Measurements in California's Mission Period.
As you have hinted, none of those sources (or any others) make any difference, because they are unaware of the "code".
[Lou]
"In the last part of your post you state that after reading the book you are convinced the code works but remain unconvinced of it's pratical use in the field. I really don't understand that! If the code works, and it does, why don't you think it would work in the field?"
The whole idea of a secret Spanish/Jesuit/Mexican code is hard to swallow.
How long do you believe this "code" existed? Do you believe, as Rochha has stated, that there was "a coded method set up by the King of Spain back then to hide gold or silver and Church Artifacts"? If so, it was so secret that no one in Spain today knows anything about it. It was so secret that every Spanish prospector and miner knew it, but never hinted at it's existence. How many people do you think kept this secret over the years?
If your book has merit (value), it will be a success. What I believe or learned from it is of no consequence. Rochha has balanced out the opinions quite well. Your statement that things "ARE CORRECT" has little weight in presenting a convincing arguement for your work. A critique by it's nature is an opinion. Mine is no better than your's, or Rochha's.
I have never said that your "code" was false. Quite the opposite actually.
Have you found a mine or treasure using it? That is how it would be proven in the "field".
Thank you for your response and, once again, welcome.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Missing the Poing
Rochha,
Lou's code is not difficult to understand. I am not missing any point. His use of measurements is not used to prove his "code".
I don't want to get into a pissing contest as to who knows their history here. Your statement suggests that they were the only ones who would be using the King's "code". No need to list the other Orders in the New World, many there before the Jesuits, as the Jesuits are the only group that could have possibly hidden treasure.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said that Lou "can't possibly be right".
"If you are implying that he is selling some bogus book because he has a lot of mouths to feed you are way off the mark, I find that comment very
insulting and out of line. Is this another example of your boorishness
behavior as you have indicated to me earlier?
For someone who is adept at understanding a "code", you are having a little problem understanding what I wrote.
[Joe]
"It seems to me, that Lou has "put the cart before the horse" here, so to speak. Shouldn't he find a mine or treasure with his code before he divulges it to the world? With the number of children he has, why tell strangers? Passing strange."
I will "enterpret" what I meant here. Unless Lou and his children are all wealthy, beyond imagination, it seems strange that he would give everyone in the world the "secret code" which could lead to KA-BILLIONS.
This is the point where you, Rochha, come clean and tell us about the treasures that he has found, and that you are in the process of digging up. I could also convince you that I know every location shown on the Stone Maps. Without plunking a gold bar down on your kitchen table, you would take it with a grain of salt.
Don't think for a minute that I won't apply Lou's code to the Stone Maps.
Don't want you two getting to the treasure ahead of me.
You are much to easily insulted, my friend. If my skin were as thin as yours, I would have none left now.
Respectfully,
Joe
Lou's code is not difficult to understand. I am not missing any point. His use of measurements is not used to prove his "code".
I don't want to get into a pissing contest as to who knows their history here. Your statement suggests that they were the only ones who would be using the King's "code". No need to list the other Orders in the New World, many there before the Jesuits, as the Jesuits are the only group that could have possibly hidden treasure.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said that Lou "can't possibly be right".
"If you are implying that he is selling some bogus book because he has a lot of mouths to feed you are way off the mark, I find that comment very
insulting and out of line. Is this another example of your boorishness
behavior as you have indicated to me earlier?
For someone who is adept at understanding a "code", you are having a little problem understanding what I wrote.
[Joe]
"It seems to me, that Lou has "put the cart before the horse" here, so to speak. Shouldn't he find a mine or treasure with his code before he divulges it to the world? With the number of children he has, why tell strangers? Passing strange."
I will "enterpret" what I meant here. Unless Lou and his children are all wealthy, beyond imagination, it seems strange that he would give everyone in the world the "secret code" which could lead to KA-BILLIONS.
This is the point where you, Rochha, come clean and tell us about the treasures that he has found, and that you are in the process of digging up. I could also convince you that I know every location shown on the Stone Maps. Without plunking a gold bar down on your kitchen table, you would take it with a grain of salt. Don't think for a minute that I won't apply Lou's code to the Stone Maps.
Don't want you two getting to the treasure ahead of me.
You are much to easily insulted, my friend. If my skin were as thin as yours, I would have none left now.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
My statement about him selling a bogus book began with the word “ If “ because I was not sure what you were trying to say. Thanks for clearing it up for me!
You have made it sound throughout your posting of his units of measurement that he cant possibly be right…..again a poor choice of words on my part, damn and I thought I was going to watch that too so you didn’t have to kindly point anything out to me that may be out of context on my part. Shucks!!!
When I see a code that has Spanish units of measurement in it and usage of the Spanish alphabet it leads me to believe that it is in fact Spanish.
“ Come Clean, “ I don’t recall reading or hearing anywhere that I had to come clean with anything that I may have found or in the process of digging up. “ If “ I were to do so it certainly wouldn’t be here.
My skin is pretty tough Joe , just like me and I have plenty of it to go around!
“ A pissing contest about who know’s there history here “, seems we have a difference of opinion about the existence of a code that was taught to the Jesuits by the King of Spain before they came over here for the purpose of finding mines and locating caches/vaults. I don’t know why that seems so far fetched to you. I take it you don’t believe that Kenworthy did receive some documents from the Spanish Archives from a researcher on this topic..their code? Why would it seem so far fetched for the King of Spain to set standards in locating mines from which he was receiving something of? I am sure he would want to know where they were located in case something were to ever happen. Sounds pretty logical to me.
I am convinced that The Society of Jesuits engaged in mining activities and hid gold and silver in the mountains in played out mines and caches as well. Also I think they made coded waybills and maps pertaining to these locations to be used in finding them later. I believe that every mine they had or cache was monumented so it could be found years later if need be due to rebellions by the Indians incase they removed all traces of it due to hostilities.
Yes there were other orders there before them as well but I am convinced of their ( Jesuits ) hidden wealth. Who do you think made all of the monuments and trail markers located extensively down in southern Arizona and why would they be made?
Have you applied the alphabet code to “ templo “ yet Joe?
See ya at the end of the rainbow….
Rochha
My statement about him selling a bogus book began with the word “ If “ because I was not sure what you were trying to say. Thanks for clearing it up for me!
You have made it sound throughout your posting of his units of measurement that he cant possibly be right…..again a poor choice of words on my part, damn and I thought I was going to watch that too so you didn’t have to kindly point anything out to me that may be out of context on my part. Shucks!!!
When I see a code that has Spanish units of measurement in it and usage of the Spanish alphabet it leads me to believe that it is in fact Spanish.
“ Come Clean, “ I don’t recall reading or hearing anywhere that I had to come clean with anything that I may have found or in the process of digging up. “ If “ I were to do so it certainly wouldn’t be here.
My skin is pretty tough Joe , just like me and I have plenty of it to go around!
“ A pissing contest about who know’s there history here “, seems we have a difference of opinion about the existence of a code that was taught to the Jesuits by the King of Spain before they came over here for the purpose of finding mines and locating caches/vaults. I don’t know why that seems so far fetched to you. I take it you don’t believe that Kenworthy did receive some documents from the Spanish Archives from a researcher on this topic..their code? Why would it seem so far fetched for the King of Spain to set standards in locating mines from which he was receiving something of? I am sure he would want to know where they were located in case something were to ever happen. Sounds pretty logical to me.
I am convinced that The Society of Jesuits engaged in mining activities and hid gold and silver in the mountains in played out mines and caches as well. Also I think they made coded waybills and maps pertaining to these locations to be used in finding them later. I believe that every mine they had or cache was monumented so it could be found years later if need be due to rebellions by the Indians incase they removed all traces of it due to hostilities.
Yes there were other orders there before them as well but I am convinced of their ( Jesuits ) hidden wealth. Who do you think made all of the monuments and trail markers located extensively down in southern Arizona and why would they be made?
Have you applied the alphabet code to “ templo “ yet Joe?
See ya at the end of the rainbow….
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Clearing Things Up
Rochha,
You said: "I don’t recall reading or hearing anywhere that I had to come clean with anything that I may have found or in the process of digging up. “ If “ I were to do so it certainly wouldn’t be here."
You will need to pay close attention here, as this message is in the same secret code as my "come clean" message.
You also said:
"When I see a code that has Spanish units of measurement in it and usage of the Spanish alphabet it leads me to believe that it is in fact Spanish."
Since "Layton" does not appear to be a Spanish surname, does it follow that he could not decipher a Spanish code? Are you saying that an Anglo could not have been the author of the code? Why is it that an American (non-Spanish/Mexican) was the first to bring the "document" to light? At this point in time, I could write a "document" that , in style and language, would be "Spanish Colonial Era." You could never see the original, because the paper would prove it false, assuming you knew what you were looking at.
Much of your last post deals with the King of Spain teaching the Jesuits his code, them using it to create maps to wealth that they wanted to hide, Kenworthy digging up the code (by proxy) in Spain and the trailmarkers
made by some group (Jesuits) in "southern Arizona".
You have as much chance of being right in all of that, as I do in believing none of it is true. It does raise an interesting question. If the Jesuits were cheating the King out of any part of his rightful "Royal Fifth" or even the whole enchilada, why would they use the King's code to make the maps to the stolen loot? Every swinging........pick that knew anything about the King"s code, could go right to the booty, including of course, the King and all of his minions in the New World. That message is "in the clear", see any problem with that scenario?
Are you sure that Kenworthy received his "code" from Spain? No chance it came from Mexico?
"My statement about him selling a bogus book began with the word “ If “ because I was not sure what you were trying to say. Thanks for clearing it up for me!"
No problem. Actually, you see, the problem with your statement was not
" If you are implying that he is selling some bogus book because he has a lot of mouths to feed you are way off the mark," but, "I find that comment very insulting and out of line. Is this another example of your boorishness
behavior as you have indicated to me earlier?"
Had you placed a period after "mark", and not continued with the rest of your comment, I would have understood your "if" point. I was a little unsure of the "boorishness behavior" dig, but in that case, I did get the point.
Sad to say, I have not applied Lou's code to "templo" yet. I am still working on "wazoo".
No need to put much serious thought to what I have said here, as there are only a few salient points. I hesitate to add this, but I believe it is
"The Society of Jesus".
Respectfully,
Joe
You said: "I don’t recall reading or hearing anywhere that I had to come clean with anything that I may have found or in the process of digging up. “ If “ I were to do so it certainly wouldn’t be here."
You will need to pay close attention here, as this message is in the same secret code as my "come clean" message. You also said:
"When I see a code that has Spanish units of measurement in it and usage of the Spanish alphabet it leads me to believe that it is in fact Spanish."
Since "Layton" does not appear to be a Spanish surname, does it follow that he could not decipher a Spanish code? Are you saying that an Anglo could not have been the author of the code? Why is it that an American (non-Spanish/Mexican) was the first to bring the "document" to light? At this point in time, I could write a "document" that , in style and language, would be "Spanish Colonial Era." You could never see the original, because the paper would prove it false, assuming you knew what you were looking at.
Much of your last post deals with the King of Spain teaching the Jesuits his code, them using it to create maps to wealth that they wanted to hide, Kenworthy digging up the code (by proxy) in Spain and the trailmarkers
made by some group (Jesuits) in "southern Arizona".
You have as much chance of being right in all of that, as I do in believing none of it is true. It does raise an interesting question. If the Jesuits were cheating the King out of any part of his rightful "Royal Fifth" or even the whole enchilada,
why would they use the King's code to make the maps to the stolen loot? Every swinging........pick that knew anything about the King"s code, could go right to the booty, including of course, the King and all of his minions in the New World. That message is "in the clear", see any problem with that scenario? Are you sure that Kenworthy received his "code" from Spain? No chance it came from Mexico?
"My statement about him selling a bogus book began with the word “ If “ because I was not sure what you were trying to say. Thanks for clearing it up for me!"
No problem. Actually, you see, the problem with your statement was not
" If you are implying that he is selling some bogus book because he has a lot of mouths to feed you are way off the mark," but, "I find that comment very insulting and out of line. Is this another example of your boorishness
behavior as you have indicated to me earlier?"
Had you placed a period after "mark", and not continued with the rest of your comment, I would have understood your "if" point. I was a little unsure of the "boorishness behavior" dig, but in that case, I did get the point.
Sad to say, I have not applied Lou's code to "templo" yet. I am still working on "wazoo".
No need to put much serious thought to what I have said here, as there are only a few salient points. I hesitate to add this, but I believe it is
"The Society of Jesus".
Respectfully,
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Spanish Secrets
Lou,
I hope you are aware of just how secret Spanish codes were during King Phillip's era. Every country in Europe was reading his "coded" messages on a regular basis. The simplicity of the Spanish codes was a well known weakness, and that is putting it kindly.
While you believe you have "cracked" a code that has remained unreadable for all of these years, it is really just an early form of cryptography that is taught in grade school today. The use of the Bible is noted by Kenworthy as well as other treasure hunter/authors.
When I said that your code "works", it did not mean that it was any kind of (real) secret.
All of this does not mean that you are wrong about who may have created this particular code or who used it. It's very simplicity would make it a possible creation of the Spanish period in question. Cryptography has been around for thousands of years. It was really going through an intellectual renaissance, along with art, literature, architecture and other sciences in the 14th, 15th, and 16th century. Almost every country in Europe was laughing at the "archaic" Spanish secret codes, as they were reading them.
I don't know if you have had any formal training in this field, but I suspect you haven't. If you had, you would know that almost every book ever written can be "proven" to contain a secret code. An excellent example of this would be the prediction of Lady Di's death along with Dodi's and Henri's in the text of "Moby Dick". The method used is known as "Equidistant Letter Sequences". Bible codes, which can be "proven" to exist, are really a result of "the laws of random choice".
Bottom line here, is that your code would have been figured out (very quickly) by anyone with a minimal amount of training. A cryptographer probably would have used two or three hundred pages of examples
"proving" your code.
While Spain's cryptographers were still using monoalphabetic substitution codes, the rest of Europe had moved on, and their cryptanalysts were using frequency analysis to easily read the Spanish codes.
Anyone interested in learning the history of ancient codes, should pick up "The Code Book" by, Simon Singh.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I hope you are aware of just how secret Spanish codes were during King Phillip's era. Every country in Europe was reading his "coded" messages on a regular basis. The simplicity of the Spanish codes was a well known weakness, and that is putting it kindly.
While you believe you have "cracked" a code that has remained unreadable for all of these years, it is really just an early form of cryptography that is taught in grade school today. The use of the Bible is noted by Kenworthy as well as other treasure hunter/authors.
When I said that your code "works", it did not mean that it was any kind of (real) secret.
All of this does not mean that you are wrong about who may have created this particular code or who used it. It's very simplicity would make it a possible creation of the Spanish period in question. Cryptography has been around for thousands of years. It was really going through an intellectual renaissance, along with art, literature, architecture and other sciences in the 14th, 15th, and 16th century. Almost every country in Europe was laughing at the "archaic" Spanish secret codes, as they were reading them.
I don't know if you have had any formal training in this field, but I suspect you haven't. If you had, you would know that almost every book ever written can be "proven" to contain a secret code. An excellent example of this would be the prediction of Lady Di's death along with Dodi's and Henri's in the text of "Moby Dick". The method used is known as "Equidistant Letter Sequences". Bible codes, which can be "proven" to exist, are really a result of "the laws of random choice".
Bottom line here, is that your code would have been figured out (very quickly) by anyone with a minimal amount of training. A cryptographer probably would have used two or three hundred pages of examples
"proving" your code.
While Spain's cryptographers were still using monoalphabetic substitution codes, the rest of Europe had moved on, and their cryptanalysts were using frequency analysis to easily read the Spanish codes.
Anyone interested in learning the history of ancient codes, should pick up "The Code Book" by, Simon Singh.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo