LOST OR.....FOUND?
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
also,
If they filed a new claim on an exsiting mine, and could show that it was the LDM, then they could get the fame (as well as money).
Unless they had an interest in keeping the L in the LDM!?!
Mike
If they filed a new claim on an exsiting mine, and could show that it was the LDM, then they could get the fame (as well as money).
Unless they had an interest in keeping the L in the LDM!?!
Mike
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
The other mine is not in the wilderness area.
Take care,
Joe
The other mine is not in the wilderness area.
Take care,
Joe
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
The Treasure Trove site - located near Roger's Spring is about a 15-20 minute hike from the trailhead mostly along the trail. Not a difficult to reach spot at all.
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Like I said, my knowledge of both sites is somewhat limited having personally visited neither one.
I knew the location of the "Pit Mine" but not the HEAT Site.As for that one, I could only go by what they said on dutchhunter.com. Thanks
Joe,
I know you said it wasn't so, but one thing keeps nagging at me; the timing of two things seems too perfect for them not to be connected.
1. In the late 1990s, Chuck Kenworthy asked my friend if he wanted to go to the Superstitions with him. He asid he had a good lead on gold. My friend was working on a movie at the time and couldn't go. A few weeks later, CK shows up at my friend's shop. He opens the trunk of his Mercedes and shows off some ore that my friend said looked like someone shot a quartz vein with solid gold buckshot.
2. In the late 1990s, a group of people surreptitiously work a "Pit Mine" they believed to be the LDM. If they did get gold out of there ..................
Unless there were two sources of very rich gold ore being worked at about the same time in the Supers ......... ?
Best - Mike
I knew the location of the "Pit Mine" but not the HEAT Site.As for that one, I could only go by what they said on dutchhunter.com. Thanks
Joe,
I know you said it wasn't so, but one thing keeps nagging at me; the timing of two things seems too perfect for them not to be connected.
1. In the late 1990s, Chuck Kenworthy asked my friend if he wanted to go to the Superstitions with him. He asid he had a good lead on gold. My friend was working on a movie at the time and couldn't go. A few weeks later, CK shows up at my friend's shop. He opens the trunk of his Mercedes and shows off some ore that my friend said looked like someone shot a quartz vein with solid gold buckshot.
2. In the late 1990s, a group of people surreptitiously work a "Pit Mine" they believed to be the LDM. If they did get gold out of there ..................
Unless there were two sources of very rich gold ore being worked at about the same time in the Supers ......... ?
Best - Mike
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
In 1999, the people who worked the Pit Mine received some big checks from.......someone. I was sitting next to one of them when he received a phone call. He asked if .......had received his check also. The answer was yes. The result of the call was a big
Perhaps Chuck was the buyer.
Take care,
Joe
In 1999, the people who worked the Pit Mine received some big checks from.......someone. I was sitting next to one of them when he received a phone call. He asked if .......had received his check also. The answer was yes. The result of the call was a big
Perhaps Chuck was the buyer.
Take care,
Joe
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
I know you've mentioned that phone call scenario before, but you have to admit Joe that that's a PRETTTTTTY big assumption on your part as to what the conversation was about.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,
In 1999, the people who worked the Pit Mine received some big checks from.......someone. I was sitting next to one of them when he received a phone call. He asked if .......had received his check also. The answer was yes. The result of the call was a big
Perhaps Chuck was the buyer.
Take care,
Joe
You didn't hear the other end of the conversation, don't know what check or money they were talking about and didn't get any other further information or confirmation regarding what it was about later unless you can't share that.
I realize you put in the category of another circumstantial piece of evidence you have to support your belief, but this one is pretty weak imho.
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Paul,Cubfan64 wrote:I know you've mentioned that phone call scenario before, but you have to admit Joe that that's a PRETTTTTTY big assumption on your part as to what the conversation was about.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,
In 1999, the people who worked the Pit Mine received some big checks from.......someone. I was sitting next to one of them when he received a phone call. He asked if .......had received his check also. The answer was yes. The result of the call was a big
Perhaps Chuck was the buyer.
Take care,
Joe
You didn't hear the other end of the conversation, don't know what check or money they were talking about and didn't get any other further information or confirmation regarding what it was about later unless you can't share that.
I realize you put in the category of another circumstantial piece of evidence you have to support your belief, but this one is pretty weak imho.
I was given enough information to make that big assumption. You can add it to the puzzle or not. Going on what I knew, and what I asked, I added it in. Perhaps it was from the sale of a stock that they all held in common. Most everything concerning the Pit Mine is conjecture, on my part, but it is all based on pretty good sources.
I just put it our there for folks to make their own evaluation of worth. From what I know, and have heard, I doubt we will get the truth of the matter any time soon.
I may just ask them, in private, what came out of that pit at next years Rendezvous.
Hope all is well with you and Connie,
Joe
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
well...it is official...I have no idea what anyone is speaking about.
it would seem clear to me, that certain artifacts would have been found at the "pit mine", to identify the original dig team.
modern archeological methods, on the timber, tools, food containers...other items, would identify the mine...and the period the mine was originally excavated.
but as I said...It is all beyond me.
seems rather nasty minded to horde the evidence...of one of the greatest wonders of the southwest...based on greed and self importance...
{I missed that class.}
it would seem clear to me, that certain artifacts would have been found at the "pit mine", to identify the original dig team.
modern archeological methods, on the timber, tools, food containers...other items, would identify the mine...and the period the mine was originally excavated.
but as I said...It is all beyond me.
seems rather nasty minded to horde the evidence...of one of the greatest wonders of the southwest...based on greed and self importance...
{I missed that class.}
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Donald,
Lets just suppose that the Pit Mine was a worked out hole in the ground and someone used it for a cache of the gold that was taken out of other mines.......for whatever reason. No artifacts, just a safe place to store their really good ore. Perhaps even stolen loot from.....somewhere.
I would not assume that it was an important archaeological dig, although it's possible....maybe.
It's also beyond me, and many others.
Take care,
Joe
Lets just suppose that the Pit Mine was a worked out hole in the ground and someone used it for a cache of the gold that was taken out of other mines.......for whatever reason. No artifacts, just a safe place to store their really good ore. Perhaps even stolen loot from.....somewhere.
I would not assume that it was an important archaeological dig, although it's possible....maybe.
It's also beyond me, and many others.
Take care,
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
I don't know Joe. Three years is a long time to dig out a cache. With a good group of diggers, they could have emptied that pit out in less than a year.
I think it took three years because they were mining ore. Now, I would say that the Rogers Spring HEAT Site would be the perfect place to stash gold and "pretend" to find it with a nice legal treasure trove permit.
Mike
I think it took three years because they were mining ore. Now, I would say that the Rogers Spring HEAT Site would be the perfect place to stash gold and "pretend" to find it with a nice legal treasure trove permit.
Mike
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike:
The problem I see in your idea is the well documented amount of work that was required to excavate and open the HEAT site. How long would it have taken, and how large a crew would have been needed to accomplish what you suggest ?
Regards:Wayne
The problem I see in your idea is the well documented amount of work that was required to excavate and open the HEAT site. How long would it have taken, and how large a crew would have been needed to accomplish what you suggest ?
Regards:Wayne
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Wayne - I don't necessarily have a dog in this fight, but one thing that popped into my head as soon as I read your post. Remember that the HEAT site had to be all done by hand in the "old way" with no machinery or heavy equipment. On the other hand, a "covert" job on the pit mine could have been using anything (depending of course on how loud it was )Somehiker wrote:Mike:
The problem I see in your idea is the well documented amount of work that was required to excavate and open the HEAT site. How long would it have taken, and how large a crew would have been needed to accomplish what you suggest ?
Regards:Wayne
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Paul:
Was there any sign of the use of heavy equipment at either location.
Ruts or other damage to the surroundings ? Newer growth replacing older....etc. ?
That's something hard to hide, even after a number of years has passed, and something the USFS would have immediately recognized IMHO.
Looking at the published photos of the HEAT dig, it didn't look like a "second" opening of the shaft.
Regards:Wayne
Was there any sign of the use of heavy equipment at either location.
Ruts or other damage to the surroundings ? Newer growth replacing older....etc. ?
That's something hard to hide, even after a number of years has passed, and something the USFS would have immediately recognized IMHO.
Looking at the published photos of the HEAT dig, it didn't look like a "second" opening of the shaft.
Regards:Wayne
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Hey Wayne,
The 1999 crew would not have had to be any larger than the crew for the HEAT Dig. Get my drift? Same folks five years later. EVERYBODY has a vested interest in keeping the secret.
Say they dug up a fortune in 1999. How does someone who earns a meager living in the Supers, one day show up either rich, or with a buttload of very rich gold ore without EVERYBODY asking where he got it (including Uncle Sam)? They manage to sell off some surreptitiously (say to Chuck Kenworthy) here and there, but selling of a large amount of picture ore is just about impossible without word getting out. The very last thing in this world this group wants is for word to get out (too soon), and have a bunch of folks (including the Feds) sniffing around their butts.
Other than the story told by Ron Feldman and others involved in the HEAT Dig, JUST how well documented is it?
Do you have any documentation filed by Feldman showing that nothing was found in the HEAT DIG? It would have been very easy for the group to say to the world that nothing was found in the HEAT Dig, but tell Uncle Sam that they hit the jackpot, and they wanted it kept secret. Pay taxes on what they SAID they found, and your illegally dug gold from 1999 magically turns completely legal in 2005. Do you think Uncle Sam cares whether you lied in 1999 as long as you come clean in 2005? I doubt it. When you have the aid of a ranking USFS Agent and Professional Archaeologist, it just makes things THAT much easier.
Here is a quote from dutchhunter.com:
To me, the subject is really a moot point. If my theory is correct, then God Bless them! It was very well executed, and I sincerely hope they enjoy the fruits of their labors for many years to come.
Best - Mike
The 1999 crew would not have had to be any larger than the crew for the HEAT Dig. Get my drift? Same folks five years later. EVERYBODY has a vested interest in keeping the secret.
Say they dug up a fortune in 1999. How does someone who earns a meager living in the Supers, one day show up either rich, or with a buttload of very rich gold ore without EVERYBODY asking where he got it (including Uncle Sam)? They manage to sell off some surreptitiously (say to Chuck Kenworthy) here and there, but selling of a large amount of picture ore is just about impossible without word getting out. The very last thing in this world this group wants is for word to get out (too soon), and have a bunch of folks (including the Feds) sniffing around their butts.
Other than the story told by Ron Feldman and others involved in the HEAT Dig, JUST how well documented is it?
Do you have any documentation filed by Feldman showing that nothing was found in the HEAT DIG? It would have been very easy for the group to say to the world that nothing was found in the HEAT Dig, but tell Uncle Sam that they hit the jackpot, and they wanted it kept secret. Pay taxes on what they SAID they found, and your illegally dug gold from 1999 magically turns completely legal in 2005. Do you think Uncle Sam cares whether you lied in 1999 as long as you come clean in 2005? I doubt it. When you have the aid of a ranking USFS Agent and Professional Archaeologist, it just makes things THAT much easier.
Here is a quote from dutchhunter.com:
Now, everybody KNOWS that Quinton T. (Ted) Cox found an empty shaft when he excavated it in 1958 right? Just like The Feldmans and HEAT found on their dig? RIGHT? Maybe someone should FOIA THE USFS, GSA, or whomever and get the specifics of what was contained in their original Treasure Trove Request and subsequent Treasure Trove paperwork filings.Relying on his past information, Cox and his "partners" began sinking a shaft in the same spot the present day H.E.A.T. excavation is taking place. After many weeks of treacherous work, they found what hundreds had previously called fantasy, and for what dozens of other had died. And as if out of a scene in Bogart's Treasure of the Sierra Madre, the warm glow of gold turned to the cold flash of steel . . .
And the rest of the story, even at this moment, is still too controversial to be told. In fact, the entire truth may never be fully revealed.
To me, the subject is really a moot point. If my theory is correct, then God Bless them! It was very well executed, and I sincerely hope they enjoy the fruits of their labors for many years to come.
Best - Mike
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike:
Other than what we both have been able to see, regarding the Pit mine and the Heat dig, and the brief exchange I had with the facebooker about the cache in Rogers Canyon, I have nothing more than my own reasoning to go on. I've been following both stories as they have evolved over the past 3 or 4 years, without being able to solidify an opinion about either case.
Perhaps this is because the stories have evolved, following a course which seems to be ever changing......like the Mississippi...
The HEAT dig though, did seem to come to a seemingly inconclusive and rather abrupt halt.
We were never given an answer to what the large target found with the gpr actually was, or if it was even reached before the dig was halted.
I wonder if the more recent "cheques" addition to the tale might be in regard to "government cheques" of some kind ??
Regards:Wayne
Other than what we both have been able to see, regarding the Pit mine and the Heat dig, and the brief exchange I had with the facebooker about the cache in Rogers Canyon, I have nothing more than my own reasoning to go on. I've been following both stories as they have evolved over the past 3 or 4 years, without being able to solidify an opinion about either case.
Perhaps this is because the stories have evolved, following a course which seems to be ever changing......like the Mississippi...
The HEAT dig though, did seem to come to a seemingly inconclusive and rather abrupt halt.
We were never given an answer to what the large target found with the gpr actually was, or if it was even reached before the dig was halted.
I wonder if the more recent "cheques" addition to the tale might be in regard to "government cheques" of some kind ??
Regards:Wayne
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
I would also say "bless their hearts, every one of them.
Not just for their perseverance and good fortune.
But also for giving the rest of us a "blueprint" of sorts, to follow if we should be so lucky ourselves.
Regards:SH.
Not just for their perseverance and good fortune.
But also for giving the rest of us a "blueprint" of sorts, to follow if we should be so lucky ourselves.
Regards:SH.
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Joe,
Do you remember what year it was when the situation with the checks happened?
The reason I ask is because if the checks came in around 1998-2000, then it was likely Chuck Kenworthy's money. If they came in around 2004-2006, then the money probably came from the sale of whatever they "supposedly" found (or didn't find) at Roger's Spring.
Thanks - Mike
Do you remember what year it was when the situation with the checks happened?
The reason I ask is because if the checks came in around 1998-2000, then it was likely Chuck Kenworthy's money. If they came in around 2004-2006, then the money probably came from the sale of whatever they "supposedly" found (or didn't find) at Roger's Spring.
Thanks - Mike
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
Believe it was 1999 but it could have been 2000-2001.
Have a very Merry Christmas!
Joe
Believe it was 1999 but it could have been 2000-2001.
Have a very Merry Christmas!
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Thanks Joe. Probably CK then.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Mike
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Mike
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
well..god bless the rich guys...
while I am disinterested in most money making activities...this is a thorn.
if they found the Dutchman...if they found anything of historical value...
then the entire behavior is problematic.
hope they made enough to offset the damage they have done to one of the greatest historical finds in the southwest...they finally prove mythology is reality...and hide the information in lies and deceit.
thanks, but I have no interest in these type of people...except to stop them...but it is too late.
glad you got the money for a hat, vest and new truck...sure was worth destroying history to do it.
while I am disinterested in most money making activities...this is a thorn.
if they found the Dutchman...if they found anything of historical value...
then the entire behavior is problematic.
hope they made enough to offset the damage they have done to one of the greatest historical finds in the southwest...they finally prove mythology is reality...and hide the information in lies and deceit.
thanks, but I have no interest in these type of people...except to stop them...but it is too late.
glad you got the money for a hat, vest and new truck...sure was worth destroying history to do it.
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Donald:
Perhaps the connections you have in Archaeology can help unravel part of the story.
Obviously, when it come down to a choice between hard cold cash and a chance to do the kind of work you have trained for, the "hat, vest and new truck" won out. At least for one official on the government payroll. Joe knows who that person is, and has spoken to him. Maybe you can find out who this person is.
J
Perhaps the connections you have in Archaeology can help unravel part of the story.
Obviously, when it come down to a choice between hard cold cash and a chance to do the kind of work you have trained for, the "hat, vest and new truck" won out. At least for one official on the government payroll. Joe knows who that person is, and has spoken to him. Maybe you can find out who this person is.
J
oe Ribaudo
Post subject: Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:19 am
The people who worked the Pit Mine had a very well thought out plan. I believe it included someone from inside the Forest Service. That belief is not unfounded.
Take care,
Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Post subject: Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:52 pm
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Garry,
While X, Y and Z are known to me, I doubt anyone can say I doubt anyone can say exactly who W would be. It seems possible that it's Waltz, but that seems like a guess, at best.
Another thought that came to me, is that the pit mine was cleaned out, and became a place
to hide ore that was mined from another location.
Mr. Z was very close to Mr. Y. He may have just taken his word for it. Z was working for the Forest Service, and may have been more involved than he told me.
Take care,
Joe
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
I have to admit..i don't care today
it appears I have offended joe again...
oh well...I apologize to everyone for being a anti social jerk...product of society and all that.
in my later years I have attempted to rein in this urge to knock about people who are abusive...probable out of old age rather than informed compassion.
I am glad the people made more money than I will ever see.
I am sorry I was not allowed to record the greatest event in Arizona history...or that anyone failed to record the event.
with that.
merry Christmas...
it appears I have offended joe again...
oh well...I apologize to everyone for being a anti social jerk...product of society and all that.
in my later years I have attempted to rein in this urge to knock about people who are abusive...probable out of old age rather than informed compassion.
I am glad the people made more money than I will ever see.
I am sorry I was not allowed to record the greatest event in Arizona history...or that anyone failed to record the event.
with that.
merry Christmas...
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Donald,pippinwhitepaws wrote:I have to admit..i don't care today
it appears I have offended joe again...
oh well...I apologize to everyone for being a anti social jerk...product of society and all that.
in my later years I have attempted to rein in this urge to knock about people who are abusive...probable out of old age rather than informed compassion.
I am glad the people made more money than I will ever see.
I am sorry I was not allowed to record the greatest event in Arizona history...or that anyone failed to record the event.
with that.
merry Christmas...
You have not offended me my friend. I admit to being more concerned with Carolyn and myself these days, and it's usually just myself. We are doing better and getting hunkered down in front of the fireplace for Christmas and New Years. Should be up and running for the new year.
Hope all is well with you and all of our friends.
Take care,
Joe
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Merry Christmas Donald
And the same to Joe and Paul and everyone else who may be following this topic:
You have to admit that Archaeologists have little interest in the study of old mining sites, at least those attributed to European exploitation. I don't know if that will ever change, since colonial settlements and pre-columbian studies are far more interesting to those in related fields as well. That leaves us, the "treasure hunters" and modern day prospectors as the only ones interested in tracking down the remnants of history left behind. Aside from the trash left behind in this case, the damage is negligible and well on the way to being erased by mother nature herself. It also doesn't seem as though re-opening the mine and allegedly removing whatever was inside required the disturbance of any historic or pre-historic era remnants.
Maybe that is how Mr. "Z" felt about it. Perhaps I'll be able to meet him someday and gain some pointers on how it's done.
Regards:Wayne
And the same to Joe and Paul and everyone else who may be following this topic:
You have to admit that Archaeologists have little interest in the study of old mining sites, at least those attributed to European exploitation. I don't know if that will ever change, since colonial settlements and pre-columbian studies are far more interesting to those in related fields as well. That leaves us, the "treasure hunters" and modern day prospectors as the only ones interested in tracking down the remnants of history left behind. Aside from the trash left behind in this case, the damage is negligible and well on the way to being erased by mother nature herself. It also doesn't seem as though re-opening the mine and allegedly removing whatever was inside required the disturbance of any historic or pre-historic era remnants.
Maybe that is how Mr. "Z" felt about it. Perhaps I'll be able to meet him someday and gain some pointers on how it's done.
Regards:Wayne
- Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
I know this is old, but in rereading this thread I wanted to make mention of something:
Donald,
Maybe you didn't get to document this discovery, but I bet people like Feldman and Schoose would NEVER let something like this stay under the table forever. Take a look at the H.E.A.T. Crew:
http://dutchhunter.com/heat_bio.htm
Notice they have an Archaeologist and a Documentary Film Maker. I bet there is ample footage and that the site was well documented by their Archaeologist.
Mike
Donald,
Maybe you didn't get to document this discovery, but I bet people like Feldman and Schoose would NEVER let something like this stay under the table forever. Take a look at the H.E.A.T. Crew:
http://dutchhunter.com/heat_bio.htm
Notice they have an Archaeologist and a Documentary Film Maker. I bet there is ample footage and that the site was well documented by their Archaeologist.
Mike