Good to be out of here. Oz should have been destroyed 10 years ago.
Again happy trails Roy.
No need for you to leave, I won't respond to any more of your posts since my questions are so clearly odious to you. Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Remember what we have always said you have to believe in Oz to see it. That bears repeating. You have to believe in Oz to see it.
Years ago in one of my first visits to the range I participated in a dig in the Canyon of the Souls, in the vicinity of Oz and the other. I was working a small section of a cave when I came across a sketching on a wall that showed a simple starburst. beneath the drawing was the statement, "May the stars keep you safe". I dug out about a foot of overburden to uncover the remains of a Gatekeeper who died in that horrific battle. Later his remains were transported to South Africa.
I have often thought of this man. A man who had faith in something he could not see. A faith in something he could not prove. He could only die and buy time for the other to be hidden and I am sure his family along with others to escape from Calalus and the range to safety. Those last days must have been a living nightmare as many escaped up Fish Creek Canyon to only find their vessel burning in the Salt River along with all the treasures she held.
In his last hours this man could only believe that somehow the people would survive and that the stars would keep them safe. Such men do not come along often.
Somehiker,
Your comments have been forwarded to the most appropriate person for a response. He is in the field now and when I hear from him you will hear from me.
Your comments about the maps are intriguing. In my opinion the most important symbol on the trail maps that points to their place of creation and not their creator is the circle within a circle in little boulder canyon. Anyone who has seen the physical structure can see it is not really a circle within a circle. It is really a starburst that points out a number of trails in the range. That starburst appears on many artifacts along with for a lack of a better word three lines that represent the routes taken from the middle east to Circlestone and beyond.
"Years ago in one of my first visits to the range I participated in a dig in the Canyon of the Souls, in the vicinity of Oz and the other. I was working a small section of a cave when I came across a sketching on a wall that showed a simple starburst. beneath the drawing was the statement, "May the stars keep you safe". I dug out about a foot of overburden to uncover the remains of a Gatekeeper who died in that horrific battle. Later his remains were transported to South Africa."
Can you tell us what language the message was written in? Can you share a picture of the starburst and message?
Dog just said to say the alpha to the answer of your question is, "When you wish upon a star". The Omega is, "My God it is full of stars". You see coded within the trail maps is a star chart. At least within the original and complete set.
The current rendition of the maps was created by Dog`s father. The originals were purchased years ago and are cared for in a special place in Arizona.
Mr. Ribaudo,
Since you believe in none of this anyway, wouldn`t you be happier flying over the Superstitions in a hot air balloon looking for your monuments?
Actually a video and many pictures of the dig are on display in a museum. Of course you would need $2.00 American to view them.
Hello Paul,
Remember what we have always said you have to believe in Oz to see it. That bears repeating. You have to believe in Oz to see it.
I refer you to my post from July a few above this one. If you or anyone else isn't convinced by now in my belief that Oz exists, there isn't much more I can do or say.
Don't know if I sent this to you before, but others may find it of interest:
The public is generally fascinated with all things archaeological and is especially attracted to archaeological finds that are spectacular, unexpected, unusual, hard-to-explain, and mysterious. Finds that lend themselves to interpretations that seem impossible or that upset established conceptions inspire a great desire on the part of many people to accept their authenticity without bothering to take into account all of the evidence. The Silverbell artifacts or so-called Tucson Roman artifacts are a case in point. These artifacts are at the center of a fascinating and controversial chapter in the recent history of southern Arizona, but only Haury's participation in it is presented here. He recorded his recollections of his role in his autobiography in the Arizona State Museum Archives and he reviewed his observations and interpretations with me several times when we were discussing field methods.
The Silverbell artifacts consist of 32 lead crosses and other objects found near an old lime kiln on Silverbell Road northwest of Tucson from 1924 through 1930. Some of them bear inscriptions in Latin seemingly recording the presence of "Romans" in southern Arizona during the eighth and ninth centuries. While some people were thrilled by the evidence and accepted the finds as authentic, others denounced them as a hoax. The evidence was overwhelmingly in favor of the recent manufacture of the lead objects. Most of the Latin phrases were copied verbatim from grammars of the late 1800s and were of a form of Latin not in use during the supposed time period of the artifacts. Some of the lead involved was a modern commercial alloy and a petroleum by-product was found on some of the artifacts.
The discoverers of the objects showed them to several faculty members at the University of Arizona. Byron Cummings, Director of the Arizona State Museum, who had begun his career as a teacher of Greek and Latin, was tempted to accept the authenticity of the artifacts and had an option to buy them for the Museum. However, he insisted that he be allowed to carry out excavations at the site to see if any artifacts could be found in a context that would resolve the authenticity issue. Early in 1927 his excavators found a small bar of lead protruding from the face of their trench about six feet below the surface, apparently mirroring the circumstances of the earlier finds. Cummings asked Emil, who was studying for his master's degree at the University of Arizona, to excavate the new find.
When Haury removed the artifact from the ground, he observed some flesh scratches parallel to the long axis of the lead bar. Although he could not be absolutely certain that the scratches had not resulted from his own excavation of it, their presence caused him to raise serious questions about the context of the find. Cummings continued the search and when a second lead object was found, Haury excavated it with great care. He made several important observations. This time he saw fresh scratches on the bar while it was in the ground and there were scratches on the underside of the bar when he lifted it from the earthen pedestal on which he had isolated it. He noted that the object was resting in a groovelike cavity in the soil rather than being imbedded in it. Moreover, the open cavity extended beyond the end of the bar.
He immediately suspected that the lead bars had been planted, that is, recently inserted into the natural deposits where Cummings' agents would find them. He concluded that a long narrow hole had been punched into the face of the trench so that the lead bar could be shoved into it. Forcing the bar into the hole produced fresh scratches in the soft metal. The empty hole beyond the bar showed that the artifact had not been pushed all the way to the end of the prepared hole. Haury imparted his findings to Cummings, who ultimately decided not to purchase the "Roman" artifacts.
Emil made these observations while he was still an undergraduate student. Some of his critics, who were enthusiastic believers in the authenticity of the lead objects, rejected his findings because he "was just a student." In fact, several more senior archaeologists had previously visited the site and examined artifacts in place without observing the critical evidence that Emil had identified. His interpretation was a very credible one because he was a student with well-developed observational skills. While there are some people who still want to argue about the authenticity of the artifacts themselves, Haury's keen observations and sound conclusions make it impossible to claim that the deposition of the Silverbell artifacts took place many hundreds of years ago.
As I recall, could be wrong, Barry Fell also believed the Tucson Artifacts to be a fraud.
Fell could find ancient text in a steaming pile of moose crap.
Joe - thanks. I'm not sure if you sent it to me or if I got it from JSTOR myself, but I do have that Journal article about Emil Haury.
As far as Fell goes, I suppose as the founding editor of the ESOP journals he would definitely qualify as someone with at least a bit of a predisposition and possible bias towards discovering and/or proving the authenticity of artifacts like those found outside of Tucson. The fact that he felt they were of fairly modern creation is not lost on me, on the other hand, the preponderance of evidence isn't "always" correct.
One of the signed copies I have of "Calalus" belonged to Warren Dexter. There is a letter between Covey and Dexter taped into the book, but I don't remember that it gave any indication that Dexter believed in Calalus.
What is obvious is that the two men were, at least colleagues, if not good friends. Both were associated in the belief that early/ancient travel by Europeans placed them in the Americas. I could find no evidence that Dexter ever gave or penned any opinions on Calalus, although it's possible.
There have been many "red flags" since Ben, as Late 49er started posting here. One of the biggest is the fact that he has focused on this, practically, unread forum to tell his story. In addition, the story is so important that it would change the history of the United States and the world.
It has been held in secret all these years, and this is where they have chosen to "go public". It strains credulity, my friend. On the other hand, it shouldn't hurt to examine the evidence......should any ever be presented.
Once again, for those who may not have seen these comments:
From ESOP:
_____________________________
Dating the Calalus Texts (5 pp) Barry Fell & Marshall Payn 19-p 115
In an interview with Marshall Payn, Fell cites linguistic and epigraphic evidence that the Calalus inscriptions and artifacts are modern. The only “good” Latin in the inscriptions comes from heraldic mottoes of the nobility as well as known quotes from Virgil, Horace, etc. The rest is what Fell calls “ignorant dog-Latin” with grammatical errors and misspellings. He suggests that the Calalus objects may have been the regalia of some order of Freemasons with special interest in Hebrews. He believes, however, that neither the finder, Tom Bent, or his son, had any connection with any fraudulent plan to deceive. Cyclone Covey first showed Fell photographs of the artifacts in 1977 and Payn later arranged with Bent to let Fell study certain of the originals.
Calalus: a Hard Look (3 pp) Michael Skupin 19-p 120
Skupin concurs with Fell's findings concerning the "Tucson Artifacts," underscoring the many errors in the “dog-Latin.” He remarks that the Hebrew on the inscriptions also shows a modern and uninformed touch, that the Hebrew phrases were probably copied from a reference work of some kind. He concludes that the inscriptions are modern. Cyclone Covey had implied that faculty members of the Wake Forest University Classics Department had participated in the translation of the artifacts, but Skupin found no members of that Department had any desire to claim such credit and firmly disassociated themselves from the matter.
The Tucson ArtiFacts: A Fingerprint (1 p) Michael Skupin 19-p 122
Skupin suggests that one of the “dog-Latin” errors that makes no sense in Latin or in English translation would make sense if the author was a Spanish speaker. This clue to the origin of the artifacts should be taken into account.
The Tucson Artifacts: Starting from Scratch (1 p) Michael Skupin 19-p 123
Skupin, at the suggestion of George F. Carter, corresponded with Julian D. Hayden regarding the Tuscon artifacts. Hayden replied that he remembered when the finds were made and had kept up with the situation. He described how he believed the artifacts were inserted from the side under layers of undis- turbed caliche. He noted that there was little or no corrosion on the lead artifacts, but lead-sheathed phone cables placed in Tucson caliche tend to corrode badly even in a short period of time. Further, the caliche layer into which the objects were inserted dated to a period 9,000-24,000 years ago.
The Tucson Artifacts: A Rebuttal to Skupin (4 pp) Chris Hardaker 19-p 124
Hardaker was hired by ISAC to examine and summarize archaeological investigations of the Tucson artifacts. He points out that few participants in the discussion had read further than Covey's book, "Calalus," and thus few were arguing with a full grasp of the events that occurred. Skupin and the Epigraphic Society had concluded that the artifacts were buried in the 19th century by some club or cult and they were not a hoax per se while most modern archaeologists believe it was a hoax. He scolds Skupin for “not doing his homework” and the “cynical, cocky overtone of his presentation.” Hardaker concludes that Skupin and Fell have “postulated the who and the why,” but “have not succeeded in putting it all together to explain how.”
On the Level with the Tucson Artifacts (17 pp) Bill Rudersclorf 19-p 128
The author discusses the symbols and inscriptions on the artifacts in some detail and relates them to Masonic symbols and practices. He points out that a possible connection with Spanish Freemasonry and, by extension, with Masonry as practiced in Mexico.
Comments on Criticism of Calalus (1 p) Cyclone Covey 19-p 145
Covey defends his portrayal of the Tucson site and artifacts in his book. He states that he and the colleagues he consulted were quite aware of the linguistic errors in the Tucson inscriptions. He states that he and the Bents welcome proof or disproof of the material equally.
If They were Aspirin: Questions About the Tucson Artifacts (1 p) Jane Eppinga 19-p 146
Jane Eppinga, a Freelance Writer living near Tucson, recommends a more thorough investigationof the artifacts and all the infromation available concerning their discovery.
________________________________
Just wanted to mention to folks a text they might find interesting to look into is the work, "The Tucson artifacts: a narrative report of the discovery, the unearthing and the failure of the subsequent investigations to solve this mystery", by Thomas Bent. Written in 1964. While this book is unpublished there are about 16 libraries across the country that own a copy. I would imagine one or two might lend it out. Seems Yale and Wake Forest have copies. Excellent book, 300 plus pages by one of the original folks involved in this.
Bent was a fascinating individual who believed in the authenticity of the artifacts but also reached out to the academic community for additional investigation, particuarly in his later years.
While Covey`s work on Calalus is ok it is somewhat lacking. At least in my opinion.
[Charles Manier and Thomas Bent were the two main supporters. In November 1924, Mr. Manier brought his friend Thomas Bent to the site, was quickly convinced of the authenticity of the discovery, and upon finding the land was not owned, immediately set up residence on the land in order to homestead the property. Mr. Bent felt there was money to be made in further excavating the site. Mr. Bent is credited with much of the known information pertaining to the site, about which he wrote a manuscript that was about 350 pages and titled "The Tucson Artifacts". There are a few problems with "The Tucson Artifacts" by Thomas Bent however; firstly, the document is unpublished, making it hard to view outside of the Arizona State Museum; secondly, is it was written forty years after the major events took place; and finally, his final summary of the article is hardly even-handed, but is presented as a point-by-point establishment of validity of the finds. Both Manier and Bent were supporters of the Tucson artifacts as a genuine archaeological find.]
Imagine folks can settle the character issues on their own. I would not get down on someone trying to make a little money off of a find like this. After all he wasn`t beheading folks and pitching their remains off of Blacktop.
Have to say I admire a man who sticks with something as long as he did because he believed he was right. The book is fascinating. If you haven`t read it try to get a copy.
Writing a book 40 years after the events is remarkable and speaks to a conviction that is far greater than the transitory intellectual illusions created by the educated elite. And think of the care that Bent gave to the artifacts. He looked after each artifact as if he knew that they were special in a way that is difficult to verbalize.
Well the folks in Tucson have their forgeries and are quite happy celibrating a scam they can not even imagine. The joke really is funny. They have proved exactly what was intended. Pretty much the same as the Stone Maps. Except you. You did the one thing that was not counted on. You took the time to see where the maps took folks.
Hope things are well with you and yours. Should be a pretty weekend. Wickenburg will be a bit hot but a good time to care for a garden. Imagine I will spend a little time in some underground workings. Cool there this time of year.
[Have to say I admire a man who sticks with something as long as he did because he believed he was right. The book is fascinating. If you haven`t read it try to get a copy.
Writing a book 40 years after the events is remarkable and speaks to a conviction that is far greater than the transitory intellectual illusions created by the educated elite. And think of the care that Bent gave to the artifacts. He looked after each artifact as if he knew that they were special in a way that is difficult to verbalize.]
There is nothing in Bent's Manuscript that would lead me to believe in Calalus.....or Oz.
It seems strange that Covey could not convince his friend, Barry Fell, that the Tucson Artifacts were legitimate. I would think that would have been an easy sell.
Who's to say, exactly, when Bent wrote the manuscript? Once again, money might have been the driving force.
Did you want to discuss Thomas Bent's manuscript, or did you just throw it out there to see what kind of response you would get?
I agree about Covey's book. He made some mistakes in his quotes of Grenville Goodwin about the Apache.
Just working from memory, as I am at work, but believe I am correct. Seems a bit careless for such a scholar.
While such a discussion would be interesting, at this point in time nothing would be served by such a dialogue.
Oz is gone. It really is that simple. We do not have the resources necessary to care for both the underground workings of Calalus and Oz.
Having said that her treasures are being examined in a place where they will be protected and who knows what may come of that research.
I have often wondered how so many trails in this journey would have been changed if just a few things had happened differently. If you folks had gotten your hands on the other two stone maps, If the mine in Little Boulder Canyon had been opened and the adit containing symbology of Oz had been discovered. If the Gold there had never been found. IF klondike`s family had not bought those 800+ gold bars. Deputy Dawg and the Saint. Quite the circle of folks.
One final thought to leave you with. The trail maps were created in the map room of the other and reflect things that were important to the children of Calalus. In many instances their trails reflected the heavens as they saw them in oh about 900A.D. If you take the trail on the trail maps and compare it to the evening sky you will see it is also a star chart. The Stars over the Southwest aligned with the maps. The starburst you found in little boulder canyon also represents something important in the sky. It points the way to Oz.
Late used to say there was a beautiful history in those mountains. There truly is and it is safe. That is all that really matters.
This past weekend I was watering my flowers in Wickenburg and looking at the two stone maps that border one side of my garden and I could only imagine what an incrediably remarkable woman it was who created them. She really was a princess. And who knows you may have already seen her likeness on a cave wall, a book and a posting here. Generations later a descendent looked remarkably like her and was quite the artist in Virginia City Nevada. Her close friend was Jacob, well you know. Later her two children came from New York to visit Jacob when he was near death to let him know he was their father. His debt had been repaid.
Perhaps I should clarify a few things about the maps. The Circle within a circle as you call it and the starburst as we call it can be understood as the sun. The sign of a circle within a circle is a well known symbol for the sun in ancient times.
The third well dot from the circle within the circle has what many have referenced a x close by. The x is really a sign for the earth, and refers to the third dot. In ancient times a cross surrounded by a circle represented the earth. From the sun then you have 9 dots that represent celestial bodies. The additional 9 reference locations point to other things.
Good luck in your efforts and may the stars keep you safe.
Having shared too much there is no real danger in going a bit further.
Determining what the ancients knew of the stars is a crap shoot. I would not underestimate the capacity of early man to understand far more than he is generally thought to have known.
Having stood in the other and seen the planets of our solar system engraved on a wall and knowing as dog pointed out, "my god it is full of stars" is the simple truth. Those engravings preceded the settlers of Calalus by thousands of years. How they knew what they knew is well beyound me but they did.
This is one of the reasons the destruction of Oz, while necessary, was a total tragedy. While photos have captured the pictures nothing replaces simply touching the stars.
If the mine in Little Boulder Canyon had been opened and the adit containing symbology of Oz had been discovered. If the Gold there had never been found. IF klondike`s family had not bought those 800+ gold bars. Deputy Dawg and the Saint. Quite the circle of folks.
Klondike - I thought the mine in question was on the east wall of West Boulder Canyon, not Little Boulder Canyon?
When I read that, my only thought was......There is no mine in Little Boulder Canyon.
On the other hand, I know about the mine on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Maybe you will find it. Ernie has brought up another project that you may find of interest.
When I read that, my only thought was......There is no mine in Little Boulder Canyon.
On the other hand, I know about the mine on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Maybe you will find it. Ernie has brought up another project that you may find of interest.
Take care,
Joe
Shoot me an e-mail Joe - you know me, another project is always up my alley
You are correct. Good catch. Long day. The mind not mine is a terrible thing to lose.
Klondike is in the field right now. I am rather tied down for the moment.
Ben
No problem - just wanted to make sure I was remembering correctly since West Boulder is one of the places I want to explore a little this fall. I'm not sure I would recognize a sealed mine if I were standing on top of it, but I'm sure it'll be enjoyable to try.
