Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Joe,
So maybe ......... Chuck Aylor, Travis Tumlinson, and maybe Tom K were in this together?
Mike
So maybe ......... Chuck Aylor, Travis Tumlinson, and maybe Tom K were in this together?
Mike
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
All,
I have always thought that it was very likely that old time dutch Hunters made up most of the non-LDM Treasure Stories of the Superstitions to keep people looking in parts of the mountains far from where they believed the LDM to be.
If I were in a small group of people that believed the LDM was say ...... ten miles East of Weaver's Needle, I might be inclined to start making up stories that led people to West Boulder, Black Mountain, or Weaver's Needle looking for treasures that were all in my head. I might also be inclined to start spreading fake clues attributed to Waltz that would also lead people away from my search area. That way, my small group could search with little to no interference from the outside world.
Just a long standing thought.
Mike
I have always thought that it was very likely that old time dutch Hunters made up most of the non-LDM Treasure Stories of the Superstitions to keep people looking in parts of the mountains far from where they believed the LDM to be.
If I were in a small group of people that believed the LDM was say ...... ten miles East of Weaver's Needle, I might be inclined to start making up stories that led people to West Boulder, Black Mountain, or Weaver's Needle looking for treasures that were all in my head. I might also be inclined to start spreading fake clues attributed to Waltz that would also lead people away from my search area. That way, my small group could search with little to no interference from the outside world.
Just a long standing thought.
Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Mike,Mike McChesney wrote:Joe,
So maybe ......... Chuck Aylor, Travis Tumlinson, and maybe Tom K were in this together?
Mike
I used to think that Tom was involved, in some way, with the creation of the Stone Maps. Once we became friends, I asked him directly. He told me he was flattered, but that he had nothing to do with them. That's good enough for me.
There is no doubt in my mind that many well known Dutch Hunters have created false clues in the mountains. Many of the early stories, and some not so early, were pure fiction. There were many reasons for the creation of these stories and clues.......take your pick.
As we all know, there is one well known LDM/Arizona historian who has made up a complete life story from childhood to the present. That includes fictional pioneer family members complete with stories and events that never took place. Some of those events, he has claimed, took place in his presense.
There is little doubt in my mind that he has purchased ore and created "evidence" in the mountains. That would include his leaving friends in camp with the expressed intention of joining Apache friends in secret locations to join them in their (made-up) ceremonies. It would also include manufacturing "Apache artifacts" to be hidden away in the mountains and "found".
Just how twisted do you think LDM history has gotten? I don't know if we will ever know, but we are trying to get to each bit of the history and find the truth. Travis and the Stone Maps are just one of many.
Take care,
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Aint it the truth Joe! Aint it the truth!Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,Mike McChesney wrote:Joe,
So maybe ......... Chuck Aylor, Travis Tumlinson, and maybe Tom K were in this together?
Mike
I used to think that Tom was involved, in some way, with the creation of the Stone Maps. Once we became friends, I asked him directly. He told me he was flattered, but that he had nothing to do with them. That's good enough for me.
There is no doubt in my mind that many well known Dutch Hunters have created false clues in the mountains. Many of the early stories, and some not so early, were pure fiction. There were many reasons for the creation of these stories and clues.......take your pick.
As we all know, there is one well known LDM/Arizona historian who has made up a complete life story from childhood to the present. That includes fictional pioneer family members complete with stories and events that never took place. Some of those events, he has claimed, took place in his presense.
There is little doubt in my mind that he has purchased ore and created "evidence" in the mountains. That would include his leaving friends in camp with the expressed intention of joining Apache friends in secret locations to join them in their (made-up) ceremonies. It would also include manufacturing "Apache artifacts" to be hidden away in the mountains and "found".
Just how twisted do you think LDM history has gotten? I don't know if we will ever know, but we are trying to get to each bit of the history and find the truth. Travis and the Stone Maps are just one of many.
Take care,
Joe
Just based on the known actions of Travis Tumlinson, I am still of the opinion that there is an authenticity to the stone maps. Are they all real? Only some? God (and possibly a couple of people in AJ) only knows for sure.
Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Mike,
Our "friend" has been building his story since around 1980, when he first came to Arizona. In that time he has spent an enormous amount of time in the Superstitions, learning his trade. The evidence he has made up and created could fill a very believable book. I have often mentioned that I would be first in line to buy it.
He has convinced some very knowledgeable Dutch Hunters that he is the real thing and that the history he has presented was true.
IMHO, when you consider the two stories side by side, Travis was a piker.
Take care,
Joe
Our "friend" has been building his story since around 1980, when he first came to Arizona. In that time he has spent an enormous amount of time in the Superstitions, learning his trade. The evidence he has made up and created could fill a very believable book. I have often mentioned that I would be first in line to buy it.
He has convinced some very knowledgeable Dutch Hunters that he is the real thing and that the history he has presented was true.
IMHO, when you consider the two stories side by side, Travis was a piker.
Take care,
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
So you don't place any stock in Charlie Miller's or Al Reser's Stories?Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,
Our "friend" has been building his story since around 1980, when he first came to Arizona. In that time he has spent an enormous amount of time in the Superstitions, learning his trade. The evidence he has made up and created could fill a very believable book. I have often mentioned that I would be first in line to buy it.
He has convinced some very knowledgeable Dutch Hunters that he is the real thing and that the history he has presented was true.
IMHO, when you consider the two stories side by side, Travis was a piker.
Take care,
Joe
Mike
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Joe,
The two stories are also not apples vs. apples. Our nameless friend has used his knowledge to integrate himself into the LDM Story. Himself and his family actually. He has submitted many of his stories for inclusion into books and magazine articles.
Travis did no such thing. If you could show me one period piece of evidence that Travis had asked for money to help solve the stones, or any evidence of Travis having shopped the stone maps story to magazines (after all, he would have had NO PROBLEM selling this story). If you could show evidence of Travis having used the stones to get money from anybody, I might be inclined to be on your side.
Buuuut, what we know tells a somewhat different story. Travis KEPT the stones (no firm evidence he ever tried to sell them). He took many trips to the Supers trying to solve them on his own dime (evidenced by Charlie Miller and Al Reser who were friends of Travis'). None of the people that knew the Tumlinsons had anything bad to say about them. The friends that knew about the stone maps were never approached for money by Travis. One of them had made plans to go to Arizona with Travis, but Travis died before they could go. He kept the stones a secret for the most part for the entire twelve years he owned them.
Sorry Joe, but the actions of Travis T and our friend are COMPLETELY different.
Mike
The two stories are also not apples vs. apples. Our nameless friend has used his knowledge to integrate himself into the LDM Story. Himself and his family actually. He has submitted many of his stories for inclusion into books and magazine articles.
Travis did no such thing. If you could show me one period piece of evidence that Travis had asked for money to help solve the stones, or any evidence of Travis having shopped the stone maps story to magazines (after all, he would have had NO PROBLEM selling this story). If you could show evidence of Travis having used the stones to get money from anybody, I might be inclined to be on your side.
Buuuut, what we know tells a somewhat different story. Travis KEPT the stones (no firm evidence he ever tried to sell them). He took many trips to the Supers trying to solve them on his own dime (evidenced by Charlie Miller and Al Reser who were friends of Travis'). None of the people that knew the Tumlinsons had anything bad to say about them. The friends that knew about the stone maps were never approached for money by Travis. One of them had made plans to go to Arizona with Travis, but Travis died before they could go. He kept the stones a secret for the most part for the entire twelve years he owned them.
Sorry Joe, but the actions of Travis T and our friend are COMPLETELY different.
Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Mike,
Actually, they are both identical on the money question. Our friend has never asked for money or made any money from his deceit, that I know of.
On the other hand, all of his story is original to him, while much of Travis' story comes from others.
Our friend made many trips into the Superstitions with well respected Dutch Hunters, who are still alive today and trusted him completely. Many of them still believe in him. Is there someone (Dutch Hunter friend) alive today, who knew and would still vouch for Travis?
"So you don't place any stock in Charlie Miller's or Al Reser's Stories?"
Were they treasure hunters? Al was well respected, and is still held in high esteem. Miller may be another story. Our friend was probably in the same catagory as Al. It's still, obviously, no guarantee of anything.
Take care,
Joe
Actually, they are both identical on the money question. Our friend has never asked for money or made any money from his deceit, that I know of.
On the other hand, all of his story is original to him, while much of Travis' story comes from others.
Our friend made many trips into the Superstitions with well respected Dutch Hunters, who are still alive today and trusted him completely. Many of them still believe in him. Is there someone (Dutch Hunter friend) alive today, who knew and would still vouch for Travis?
"So you don't place any stock in Charlie Miller's or Al Reser's Stories?"
Were they treasure hunters? Al was well respected, and is still held in high esteem. Miller may be another story. Our friend was probably in the same catagory as Al. It's still, obviously, no guarantee of anything.
Take care,
Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Mike,
One other thing about Charlie Miller. He is the one who said that Travis altered the Stone Maps. My hunch is that the alteration went a lot farther than the circles in the heart.
Take care,
Joe
One other thing about Charlie Miller. He is the one who said that Travis altered the Stone Maps. My hunch is that the alteration went a lot farther than the circles in the heart.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Joe:
One problem I have with the claim(s) of Tumlinson having altered the stone(s),is WHY?
Perhaps my logic in this case is faulty, and the answer simple,but what reason would the man who now stands accused of fabricating the Stone Maps have for altering them?
Especially when the zeros on the back of the heart stone do not match the craftsmanship evident in the other carvings.
Regards:Wayne
One problem I have with the claim(s) of Tumlinson having altered the stone(s),is WHY?
Perhaps my logic in this case is faulty, and the answer simple,but what reason would the man who now stands accused of fabricating the Stone Maps have for altering them?
Especially when the zeros on the back of the heart stone do not match the craftsmanship evident in the other carvings.
Regards:Wayne
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Okay Joe,
That's a new one on me. It was under the impression that this info first came out between Mel Brower and Bob Bair, in Brower's letter to Peck in 1965.
Mike
That's a new one on me. It was under the impression that this info first came out between Mel Brower and Bob Bair, in Brower's letter to Peck in 1965.
Mike
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
It's beginning to sound like Travis told others,besides Bair,that he altered the heart.
And possibly one or more of the other stones as well?
Wonder why.....if he did in fact,make them himself.
Joe:
Who had possession of the Stone Maps when the Holey Heart stone was made?
Regards:Wayne
And possibly one or more of the other stones as well?
Wonder why.....if he did in fact,make them himself.
Joe:
Who had possession of the Stone Maps when the Holey Heart stone was made?
Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Wayne,
As you should know, I don't know $#!t about the Holey Heart Stone. Are we talking about the stuff Rick told me about at the Rendezvous? It's all I can do to keep up with all the new information coming along about the Stone Maps.
Joe
As you should know, I don't know $#!t about the Holey Heart Stone. Are we talking about the stuff Rick told me about at the Rendezvous? It's all I can do to keep up with all the new information coming along about the Stone Maps.
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
I'm lost. Is the Holey Heart Stone the one Joe posted a picture of?
Mike
Mike
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
geezMike McChesney wrote:I'm lost. Is the Holey Heart Stone the one Joe posted a picture of?
Mike
Mike:
YES!.......hole(y)
Joe:Joe Ribaudo wrote:Wayne,
As you should know, I don't know $#!t about the Holey Heart Stone. Are we talking about the stuff Rick told me about at the Rendezvous? It's all I can do to keep up with all the new information coming along about the Stone Maps.
Joe
Gwynn and Taylor seem to be busy trying to create and promote a new legend around some purple rocks they found.I don't think their rocks have holes in them,but they say these rocks are "Holy".It's a spy vs spy tale,like one might find in an old Mad Magazine,complete with Nazi villains and a femme fatalle named Natasha or something.
No... I'm asking about your statement regarding Charlie Miller's story.
Did Charlie Miller offer a reason as to why Tumlinson altered the heart?Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,
One other thing about Charlie Miller. He is the one who said that Travis altered the Stone Maps. My hunch is that the alteration went a lot farther than the circles in the heart.
Take care,
Joe
Or was he merely repeating something he had been told by Mel Brower or another member of Richard Peck's group?
Brower's opinion has no merit,as Mike has pointed out.
Bob Bair's reason is only plausible if Tumlinson did not carve the stones.
Your hunch,as well,can only hold water if Travis found or was given the Stones.
Regards:Wayne
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Wayne,
I think all the purple stone mess started with Chuck Crawford. There is supposedly some kind of rare Superstition Amethyst with supernatural powers that Doc Burns had found and hidden. Chuck C found part of this stash of Superstition Amethyst. The whole story used to be on the trilogy.threethirteens website, but I see that it is no longer up.
That is the only mysterious purple stones that I know of.
Mike
I think all the purple stone mess started with Chuck Crawford. There is supposedly some kind of rare Superstition Amethyst with supernatural powers that Doc Burns had found and hidden. Chuck C found part of this stash of Superstition Amethyst. The whole story used to be on the trilogy.threethirteens website, but I see that it is no longer up.
That is the only mysterious purple stones that I know of.
Mike
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Mike:
Exactly.Same purple stones.
You must have missed all of this...a fun read.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/ ... 858.0.html
I had been following the trilogy tale as well,but hadn't looked at it lately.
Some links remain available thru a Google search.
This site as well...is still up.
http://www.blackbartbetrayed.com/TBOBB/content.html
Regards:Wayne
Exactly.Same purple stones.
You must have missed all of this...a fun read.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/ ... 858.0.html
I had been following the trilogy tale as well,but hadn't looked at it lately.
Some links remain available thru a Google search.
This site as well...is still up.
http://www.blackbartbetrayed.com/TBOBB/content.html
Regards:Wayne
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
I know that site well. I didn't mention it because there are some rather, uuuuhhhh, how shall we saaaaaaay, UNFLATTERING pictures of Emory Taylor. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I don't know the guy, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut. WOW
Mike
Mike
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Kinda "Hoisted",wasn't he.
Sorta like that Anthony W----- fella
Wayne
Sorta like that Anthony W----- fella
Wayne
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Well,
From the looks of things, when his quest took a downturn, he took matters into his own hands ............... (insert rimshot)
Mike
From the looks of things, when his quest took a downturn, he took matters into his own hands ............... (insert rimshot)
Mike
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........Talk about taking matters in your own hands
Rochha
Rochha
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Joe:
Another question,perhaps also unworthy of an answer.
You own,as you have stated elsewhere,a replica of the Latin Heart.
Why do you believe this replica to be accurate?
Regards:SH.
Another question,perhaps also unworthy of an answer.
You own,as you have stated elsewhere,a replica of the Latin Heart.
Why do you believe this replica to be accurate?
Regards:SH.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
Wayne,
The heart I have matches the pictures and drawings I have seen. Not having seen the original, it could be all bunk.
I don't know what reasons were given for altering the Stone Maps. Have to take the word of my source. He didn't elaborate, and I see no reason to grill him over what he told me.
There are a few people who tell me stuff, and I am ok with taking it to the bank. Damn few, but I trust them. No one has to take what I pass along as true. Just sweep it to the side and move along with what you believe to be the facts.
Let's face it, if I were you, I would want a little more meat on the story as well. Don't fault you for asking, but right now I am just the messenger. Who knows what will pop up because of that statement about Charlie. Maybe someone has something better to relate.
One things for sure. I won't be getting mad because I was questioned or start deleting all my posts. When I get to a place where I can pass along more information on this, I will.
Take care,
Joe
The heart I have matches the pictures and drawings I have seen. Not having seen the original, it could be all bunk.
I don't know what reasons were given for altering the Stone Maps. Have to take the word of my source. He didn't elaborate, and I see no reason to grill him over what he told me.
There are a few people who tell me stuff, and I am ok with taking it to the bank. Damn few, but I trust them. No one has to take what I pass along as true. Just sweep it to the side and move along with what you believe to be the facts.
Let's face it, if I were you, I would want a little more meat on the story as well. Don't fault you for asking, but right now I am just the messenger. Who knows what will pop up because of that statement about Charlie. Maybe someone has something better to relate.
One things for sure. I won't be getting mad because I was questioned or start deleting all my posts. When I get to a place where I can pass along more information on this, I will.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps
I may have come across one somewhere, but I can't recall - are there photographs of the Latin Heart before it was supposedly destroyed? I believe all I've seen are drawings and maybe a photo of a replica.