Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Joe,
We are in complete agreement. I wondered the same question and previously asked if anybody knew if Charlie Miller was a straight shooter or not. Never got an answer.
Over at TNet, I wrote a long post regarding why people glom on to things. In it, I stated that most often, they were losers who felt the only way to give some semblance of importance to their lives was to have their name associated with something already important (John Hinckley, Mark David Chapman, Blindbowman, John Kemm, John Kerry Heintz, etc). I guess because I mentioned their names, the powers that be didn't like it and zapped the post (even though it was true). HAHAHA
Best-Mike
We are in complete agreement. I wondered the same question and previously asked if anybody knew if Charlie Miller was a straight shooter or not. Never got an answer.
Over at TNet, I wrote a long post regarding why people glom on to things. In it, I stated that most often, they were losers who felt the only way to give some semblance of importance to their lives was to have their name associated with something already important (John Hinckley, Mark David Chapman, Blindbowman, John Kemm, John Kerry Heintz, etc). I guess because I mentioned their names, the powers that be didn't like it and zapped the post (even though it was true). HAHAHA
Best-Mike
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
The answer could be in the version Bob Garman told which is as follows:
He met Robert Tumlinson in Randolph canyon in 1955. Tumlinson was with 2 other guys and told Garman and his companion that they had some spanish treasure maps. Garman told Tumlinson he could stop by his house and Garman would see if he could be of any help deciphering them. Tumlinson said he would stop by for a visit but couldn't give Garman any info of what was on the maps cause Travis didn't want anyone else to know what was there.
Garman got to know Robert(He doesn't mention if he met with Travis) and said that Robert told him that Travis was on his way to Texas to visit his parents and pulled off the road for a look at the Superstitions and to see if he could see Weavers Needle. It was at this time he found ONE map. He took that map to Florence Junction and washed it off, after the bystander comment that it looked like a treasure map, he then continued on to Texas. His Dad couldn't figure out what he had, so they took it to a nearby university where someone said it was at least 100 years old. Travis did stop on his way back through, but found nothing else. The map he found was the Priest/Horse map.
Travis then made several trips looking for more maps with Robert, they believed there were more cause the 1st map said search for the heart. They finally found the Don and Cross stones and later found the heart buried deep below them......
If this story is correct then the photo could not have been taken at the first discovery, but explains why the priest/horse map isn't in the picture.
It can also explain how others came into the picture as they made a number of trips over time and while particulars of the stones were kept secret, they readily were telling their story by 1955.
Garman also mentioned that when he met Robert Tumlinson, that he was told they found the maps a year or so ago. Garman was sure of the year he met them and is a decent first hand witness, while he had interest in the stones, I don't believe he was very involved as he was generally prospecting for silver in the mountains.
He met Robert Tumlinson in Randolph canyon in 1955. Tumlinson was with 2 other guys and told Garman and his companion that they had some spanish treasure maps. Garman told Tumlinson he could stop by his house and Garman would see if he could be of any help deciphering them. Tumlinson said he would stop by for a visit but couldn't give Garman any info of what was on the maps cause Travis didn't want anyone else to know what was there.
Garman got to know Robert(He doesn't mention if he met with Travis) and said that Robert told him that Travis was on his way to Texas to visit his parents and pulled off the road for a look at the Superstitions and to see if he could see Weavers Needle. It was at this time he found ONE map. He took that map to Florence Junction and washed it off, after the bystander comment that it looked like a treasure map, he then continued on to Texas. His Dad couldn't figure out what he had, so they took it to a nearby university where someone said it was at least 100 years old. Travis did stop on his way back through, but found nothing else. The map he found was the Priest/Horse map.
Travis then made several trips looking for more maps with Robert, they believed there were more cause the 1st map said search for the heart. They finally found the Don and Cross stones and later found the heart buried deep below them......
If this story is correct then the photo could not have been taken at the first discovery, but explains why the priest/horse map isn't in the picture.
It can also explain how others came into the picture as they made a number of trips over time and while particulars of the stones were kept secret, they readily were telling their story by 1955.
Garman also mentioned that when he met Robert Tumlinson, that he was told they found the maps a year or so ago. Garman was sure of the year he met them and is a decent first hand witness, while he had interest in the stones, I don't believe he was very involved as he was generally prospecting for silver in the mountains.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Wayne,
I also believe Garman may be the best “early” source we have. I have his book (Published in 1975) and also an article that was published in the Superstition Mountain Journal written by Garman (Published in 1984).
The story you have told appears to be a slightly different version. Can you share where you took your story? I would like to run that reference down and bounce it off of Garman’s other accounts.
Could this have been two separate incidents? Your story was in 1955 and apparently Travis wasn’t with Robert?
Rechecking my Garman references, I’m becoming more confused. The book I have was a first printing. I also have a copies of several pages, that Larry Webb provided me several years ago, from a Third Edition. In that book Garman had apparently added a dedication section in which he has a short story for Herman Pertach, Travis Tumlinson, Robert Tumlinson and Don Miguel Peralta.
I don’t see any glaring discrepancies, that might indicate, that Garman was trying to spin the story but I think Garman’s relationship with the Tumlinsons is interesting and I would like to put his accounts together as best I can.
Garry
I also believe Garman may be the best “early” source we have. I have his book (Published in 1975) and also an article that was published in the Superstition Mountain Journal written by Garman (Published in 1984).
The story you have told appears to be a slightly different version. Can you share where you took your story? I would like to run that reference down and bounce it off of Garman’s other accounts.
From Garman’s book on page 18, Garman writes: “The author first met R. G. Tumlinson and his nephew in Randolph Canyon, Superstition Mountains in 1952. At that time they told me of the discovery of the stone maps, and at the same time pledged me to secrecy.”You wrote:
He met Robert Tumlinson in Randolph canyon in 1955. Tumlinson was with 2 other guys and told Garman and his companion that they had some spanish treasure maps. Garman told Tumlinson he could stop by his house and Garman would see if he could be of any help deciphering them. Tumlinson said he would stop by for a visit but couldn't give Garman any info of what was on the maps cause Travis didn't want anyone else to know what was there.
Could this have been two separate incidents? Your story was in 1955 and apparently Travis wasn’t with Robert?
Rechecking my Garman references, I’m becoming more confused. The book I have was a first printing. I also have a copies of several pages, that Larry Webb provided me several years ago, from a Third Edition. In that book Garman had apparently added a dedication section in which he has a short story for Herman Pertach, Travis Tumlinson, Robert Tumlinson and Don Miguel Peralta.
I don’t see any glaring discrepancies, that might indicate, that Garman was trying to spin the story but I think Garman’s relationship with the Tumlinsons is interesting and I would like to put his accounts together as best I can.
Garry
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Mike and Garry,
I received the following information from a friend this morning:
"Miller was a close associate of Roy Bradford, and a strong advocate of the Peralta Stone Maps. He dates back to the early 1950's. He lived in Phoenix near 48th Street and Thomas Road. I believe on either Brill or Culver Streets. Actually in those days that was a real nice part of town. He also helped Robert G. Tumlinson clean up the stone maps when they were originally found. He allegedly made one of the first tracings of the Stone Maps before they were altered by Tumlinson to confuse anyone who might steal them. You have to take it from here. I did meet him once at the U Ranch in 1955. I made a note that he was at the ranch seeking information about the area from Barkley. Barkley ask him to leave."
Later he added this:
"I believe he was also associated with Nobel Dwyer. Nobel use to ride up to Roy Bradford's old camp quite often. Nobel was also a strange character. Old Ron Lorenz made friends with him just before he went on that fateful Texas trip where he died in a fire in his camper truck. I don't remember the year without looking it up. Nobel also packed for old John DeGraffenreid and his Superstition Mountain Pack Outfit in the 1950's."
Don't know if that information helps any, but you might find one part of the above interesting. Greg probably has a folder full of information on Charlie Miller.
Take care,
Joe
I received the following information from a friend this morning:
"Miller was a close associate of Roy Bradford, and a strong advocate of the Peralta Stone Maps. He dates back to the early 1950's. He lived in Phoenix near 48th Street and Thomas Road. I believe on either Brill or Culver Streets. Actually in those days that was a real nice part of town. He also helped Robert G. Tumlinson clean up the stone maps when they were originally found. He allegedly made one of the first tracings of the Stone Maps before they were altered by Tumlinson to confuse anyone who might steal them. You have to take it from here. I did meet him once at the U Ranch in 1955. I made a note that he was at the ranch seeking information about the area from Barkley. Barkley ask him to leave."
Later he added this:
"I believe he was also associated with Nobel Dwyer. Nobel use to ride up to Roy Bradford's old camp quite often. Nobel was also a strange character. Old Ron Lorenz made friends with him just before he went on that fateful Texas trip where he died in a fire in his camper truck. I don't remember the year without looking it up. Nobel also packed for old John DeGraffenreid and his Superstition Mountain Pack Outfit in the 1950's."
Don't know if that information helps any, but you might find one part of the above interesting. Greg probably has a folder full of information on Charlie Miller.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Garry,
I went through various interviews and notes I have with Garman and came up with dates of 1953, 1954 and 1955. He did say each time that Travis had just finished his military obligation after the Korean war and was going from California to Texas and then to Oregon where he had a job as a guard. He worked at a trailer park with cabins of some sort at Grant pass in Oregon.
He also mentions that Travis's widow gave the maps to a friend and Travis never once talked about the maps to him. Furthermore Travis would not allow Robert to have the maps photographed clearly as he wanted no one outside the 2 of them to know what was on them. Most of their searches were in small groups and were comprised of family members or friends. Often it would be Just Robert and his wife searching.
The last search Robert was making that Garman met him was in Millsite canyon around 1961-2. Garman was working on a story about the maps with Robert but was working "blind" since he had never actually seen them. Next thing he knew Mitchell had control of them.
Travis was one of the younger men that was with Robert on their first meeting. They were in bad shape and their shoes were worn out.
One further interesting note was Garman implied he knew how to contact the Mitchells through friends in California in the late 70s and was working on getting the rights to the maps from them? Whether this was the story or the maps themselves is unclear.
The story of the maps as I mentioned before in that particular order is consistent to the letter in each telling by Garman.
I went through various interviews and notes I have with Garman and came up with dates of 1953, 1954 and 1955. He did say each time that Travis had just finished his military obligation after the Korean war and was going from California to Texas and then to Oregon where he had a job as a guard. He worked at a trailer park with cabins of some sort at Grant pass in Oregon.
He also mentions that Travis's widow gave the maps to a friend and Travis never once talked about the maps to him. Furthermore Travis would not allow Robert to have the maps photographed clearly as he wanted no one outside the 2 of them to know what was on them. Most of their searches were in small groups and were comprised of family members or friends. Often it would be Just Robert and his wife searching.
The last search Robert was making that Garman met him was in Millsite canyon around 1961-2. Garman was working on a story about the maps with Robert but was working "blind" since he had never actually seen them. Next thing he knew Mitchell had control of them.
Travis was one of the younger men that was with Robert on their first meeting. They were in bad shape and their shoes were worn out.
One further interesting note was Garman implied he knew how to contact the Mitchells through friends in California in the late 70s and was working on getting the rights to the maps from them? Whether this was the story or the maps themselves is unclear.
The story of the maps as I mentioned before in that particular order is consistent to the letter in each telling by Garman.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Wayne,
To tell you the truth, I’m beginning to back away from Garman as a solid source. At least I’m becoming very cautious.
Travis Tumlinson was born in 1910 and the Korean War service sounds like way too much of a stretch. We have been to Hood River, Oregon and I have a copy of a deed dated February 28, 1951 in which Travis and Alleen were purchasing 50 acres of land. Also Travis’ obituary stated that Travis had been a resident of Hood river for 14 years when he died in 1961. The obit also stated that he had been employed as a warehouseman for AGA (Apple Grower's Association) for 13 years. No mention of any military service. The timeline just doesn't work without a "LOT" of spinning.
I also don’t understand Garman trying to get rights to the maps from Mitchell in the late 70s. The maps and Mitchell were yesterday’s news by the late 70s. Possibly he wanted the rights to Mitchell’s book but that is pure speculation.
Mike and Joe,
According to Dr. Glover, Charlie Miller’s story was passed down through Don Shade and Al Reser. At least we know the provenance and the truth would lie with Charlie Miller since we have two sources for the Miller story. Both Shade and Reser apparently repeated the story. I guess Shade could have gotten the story from Reser or vise versa.
Nobel Dwyer is a name that doesn’t instill much confidence in me. I have really only looked into one Dwyer stories and elements of it certainly raised my eyebrows.
As for “a friend told me source” about Miller, why doesn’t the source put his name on his or her words? I did find it strange that only recently we have seen documents that spoke of Travis altering the map and now that story begins to come out of the wood work from other sources. I will say it’s hard to get ahead of some Dutch Hunters.
Garry
To tell you the truth, I’m beginning to back away from Garman as a solid source. At least I’m becoming very cautious.
Travis Tumlinson was born in 1910 and the Korean War service sounds like way too much of a stretch. We have been to Hood River, Oregon and I have a copy of a deed dated February 28, 1951 in which Travis and Alleen were purchasing 50 acres of land. Also Travis’ obituary stated that Travis had been a resident of Hood river for 14 years when he died in 1961. The obit also stated that he had been employed as a warehouseman for AGA (Apple Grower's Association) for 13 years. No mention of any military service. The timeline just doesn't work without a "LOT" of spinning.
I also don’t understand Garman trying to get rights to the maps from Mitchell in the late 70s. The maps and Mitchell were yesterday’s news by the late 70s. Possibly he wanted the rights to Mitchell’s book but that is pure speculation.
Mike and Joe,
According to Dr. Glover, Charlie Miller’s story was passed down through Don Shade and Al Reser. At least we know the provenance and the truth would lie with Charlie Miller since we have two sources for the Miller story. Both Shade and Reser apparently repeated the story. I guess Shade could have gotten the story from Reser or vise versa.
Nobel Dwyer is a name that doesn’t instill much confidence in me. I have really only looked into one Dwyer stories and elements of it certainly raised my eyebrows.
As for “a friend told me source” about Miller, why doesn’t the source put his name on his or her words? I did find it strange that only recently we have seen documents that spoke of Travis altering the map and now that story begins to come out of the wood work from other sources. I will say it’s hard to get ahead of some Dutch Hunters.
Garry
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
I will take a shot at one of the questions; "How long had Mitchell known about the stones existence before purchasing them?"Mike McChesney wrote:Garry,
Good questions all. The documents you shared and others point to a story not necessarily like the one commonly told.
The only questions of yours that I believe I can answer with some degree of certainty are: When and Why did Mitchell obtain the Stone Maps?
I am almost certain that he did not get them before Tumlinson's death. THAT part of the story (as told) I believe. Sometime in 1961. The WHY is simple. He knew about them before hand, and believed in their authenticity.
Now, we have the next questions:
How long had Mitchell known about the stones existence before purchasing them?
That is a tough one! While there is no corroborative evidence that shows Mitchell knew anything about the stones, it looks to me like the stones did play a part in the formation of MOEL. Although, that is only a guess. The written evidence about the formation of the Corporation suggests that it had more to do with this mysterious device which was able to detect precious metals and minerals of all types (something akin to modern LRLs "Long Range Locators" or MFDs "Molecular Frequency Discriminators").
Did Mitchell use the stones as a selling point to obtain additional investors after he obtained them?
I believe he did. That is why IMO he transferred ownership of the stones to MOEL at some point. That is why we have that whole contract fiasco with Peck. It shows quite clearly that the ONLY thing Peck was getting from MOEL/Mitchell were pics of the stones.
Mike
From the Mitchell-McGee letter collection, [June 22, 1965, Question #3] the Mitchell's wrote "The 1956 date Mr. Stolley (Life Magazine) had was really when we started to work on this and he jumbled it as their being found them – they were found in 1949."
Clarence is answering some questions from Bernice as she began preparing the article that would appear in "True West" magazine. We don't have her letter but she is asking about the apparent discrepancy in the 1956 date for the discovery of the maps that appeared in the Life Magazine article by Richard Stolley.
Mitchell says that Stolley got that messed up and the 1956 date was when they began work on the stone maps.
Several years ago we talked with Elgin Kriewald's wife. She said that they (Mitchell and Kriewald) came to the Superstitions in 1956. Kriewald was only there for a limited time but Mitchell remained.
Mitchell may have even been there earlier. Again if you read the Mitchell-McGee Collection you will find an article reviewing "Superstition Treasures".
May 1965? – Arizona Days With Roscoe Willson – Marlowe himself has spent 11 years in and out of the Superstitions, and more than once has had occasion to fear death at the hands of a fanatical gold seeker.
This would put Mitchell visiting the Superstitons as early as 1954.
There is also the question of "when" Mitchell received the maps from Alleen Tumlinson. (BTW, he speaks of receiving the maps in a letter dated July 5, 1965) "Janie was present when her mother and Jack’s sister brought the maps to us." [Those present were Alleen and Janie Tumlinson and Travis' sister Lois Falkner]
I have some additional letters from Bernice that I haven't posted yet. They are from a lady who knew the Tumlinsons in Hood River, Oregon. Her dates are a year off but she wrote, "This was all in the fall on 1959 and Travis was very much alive then. We don't know exactly when he did die, but in 1961 Eileen wrote that she had been through Colorado. She had been back to Texas to decorate Travis' grave. That was in June '61 so he passed on sometime during 1960. I can't find her letter, but will keep on looking. Eileen and Jane still lived in Oregon, but were planning on moving back to Texas."
Travis died in October of 1961 and the trip that "Pat" is speaking of would have been in June, 1962 (Not 1961). Alleen had been back to Texas to decorate Travis' grave and again it's only speculation but the window is not very large and she may have delivered the maps to Mitchell on her way to Texas for Decoration Day. Two MOEL noteworthy MOEL investors purchased shares on June 8, 1964. (Soon After Mitchell received the Maps?)
Anyway, right now, I have Travis coming to the Suprestitions about 1954 and remaining permanently in 1956. He was also aware of the stone maps at that time, 1956, and he and Kriewald were already working on them. I have Mitchell receiving the maps in May of 1962 when Alleen was returning to Texas to decorate Travis' grave.
Garry
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Hi Garry,
"As for “a friend told me source” about Miller, why doesn’t the source put his name on his or her words? I did find it strange that only recently we have seen documents that spoke of Travis altering the map and now that story begins to come out of the wood work from other sources. I will say it’s hard to get ahead of some Dutch Hunters."
My source was Tom Kollenborn. He found the information in notes that he had written at the time.
Take care,
Joe
"As for “a friend told me source” about Miller, why doesn’t the source put his name on his or her words? I did find it strange that only recently we have seen documents that spoke of Travis altering the map and now that story begins to come out of the wood work from other sources. I will say it’s hard to get ahead of some Dutch Hunters."
My source was Tom Kollenborn. He found the information in notes that he had written at the time.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Well thats about all I can bring to the table for now, got to get the rendezvous stuff rolling.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
I just realized I erred in a previous post.
I wrote; "Anyway, right now, I have Travis coming to the Suprestitions about 1954 and remaining permanently in 1956. He was also aware of the stone maps at that time, 1956, and he and Kriewald were already working on them. I have Mitchell receiving the maps in May of 1962 when Alleen was returning to Texas to decorate Travis' grave."
It should read, "I have Mitchell (NOT TRAVIS) coming to the Surpestations about 1954......"
Joe,
Thanks for the source. That certainly provides a good foundation, coming from Tom. I'm still not sure where Tom got the story? From Reser or Shade? I don't think Tom got it from Miller as he indicates he only saw him once. Did Dr. Glover get his story from Tom? I assume the Barkley Tom was speaking of was Bill Barkley and not Tex?
In Tom's story the implication is that Miller said that Robert Tumlinson found the maps and he helped him clean them up. Everyone else seems to agree that it was Travis who found the stones?
As Tom said, "You have to take it from here."
Garry
I wrote; "Anyway, right now, I have Travis coming to the Suprestitions about 1954 and remaining permanently in 1956. He was also aware of the stone maps at that time, 1956, and he and Kriewald were already working on them. I have Mitchell receiving the maps in May of 1962 when Alleen was returning to Texas to decorate Travis' grave."
It should read, "I have Mitchell (NOT TRAVIS) coming to the Surpestations about 1954......"
Joe,
Thanks for the source. That certainly provides a good foundation, coming from Tom. I'm still not sure where Tom got the story? From Reser or Shade? I don't think Tom got it from Miller as he indicates he only saw him once. Did Dr. Glover get his story from Tom? I assume the Barkley Tom was speaking of was Bill Barkley and not Tex?
In Tom's story the implication is that Miller said that Robert Tumlinson found the maps and he helped him clean them up. Everyone else seems to agree that it was Travis who found the stones?
As Tom said, "You have to take it from here."
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Garry
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
For you folks collecting paperwork trails:
Ray Grant from the AM&M Museum just sent me an email containing the only document they have describing how they obtained the stone maps.
Enjoy-Mike
Ray Grant from the AM&M Museum just sent me an email containing the only document they have describing how they obtained the stone maps.
Enjoy-Mike
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- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Notice the donation was from the SHAREHOLDERS of MOEL Inc. By: Boyd Cochrane. Clarence Mitchell had nothing to do with the contribution.
Mike
Mike
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Mike,Mike McChesney wrote:Notice the donation was from the SHAREHOLDERS of MOEL Inc. By: Boyd Cochrane. Clarence Mitchell had nothing to do with the contribution.
Mike
I see this is some more of the bait (Mitchell Made the Donation) you have spit out.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
What about the "income tax deduction" Mitchell recieved for the donation?
What about Mason Coggins accepting the stones for the Museum?
What about the State of Arizona having ownership of the Stone Maps?
Can Professor Dana be far behind?
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
What I find interesting is the capacity of Lee Hammons. He was director of the Mining and Mineral Musuem at this time but he was also a member (Vice Chairman) of the Flagg Foundation. Ray spoke of Lee being active in the foundations receiving the Woolery Collection. Why not the State Museum?
Garry
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Come on Garry,
You have to keep up with the times!
That whole tax deduction thing is sooooooo last week!
As with any good scholar of history, as new information comes to light, I compare it to my own opinions to see how it fits. After I figure in the new info, my opinion adjusts or changes. Occasionally, the new information is such a drastic change, my own opinions are required to drastically change as well.
When Ray first told me that the story at the museum is that the stones were donated by force as part of some legal action, I had to rethink my position.
The new revelations regarding Travis Tumlinson adding characters to the stones in order to throw off anybody who might have stolen or photographed them, not only make sense, but also help explain the Desert Archaeology Inc Examinations results.
See, I haven't dropped an anchor in regards to the stone maps. I can still adapt to changing situations as the need arises.
Best-Mike
You have to keep up with the times!
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
As with any good scholar of history, as new information comes to light, I compare it to my own opinions to see how it fits. After I figure in the new info, my opinion adjusts or changes. Occasionally, the new information is such a drastic change, my own opinions are required to drastically change as well.
When Ray first told me that the story at the museum is that the stones were donated by force as part of some legal action, I had to rethink my position.
The new revelations regarding Travis Tumlinson adding characters to the stones in order to throw off anybody who might have stolen or photographed them, not only make sense, but also help explain the Desert Archaeology Inc Examinations results.
See, I haven't dropped an anchor in regards to the stone maps. I can still adapt to changing situations as the need arises.
Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Mike,
Meant to post this here, but did it on TreasureNet by mistake.
To be honest, I really need to take a break from that site. Too many bb's rolling around, if you know what I mean.
I'm not sure why you think it's important that Mitchell's name is absent from that document.
My take on what happened, is that Mitchell knew the Stone Maps had no substantial value. On the other hand, MOEL stock could be sold for cash. Easy answer......Sell the company the Stones for MOEL shares, sell the shares, and get out of Dodge.
The only thing that points to MOEL having to "donate", by court order, the Stone Maps, is rumor. There is, as far as I know, not a single scrap of documentation that even hints that anything like that took place. Everything concerning the authenticity of the Stone Maps, that is documented, is negative. Everything else is what someone heard or claims they saw.
You've been looking, hard, for awhile now. What's the most solid piece of evidence you have found?
Take care,
Joe
Meant to post this here, but did it on TreasureNet by mistake.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
I'm not sure why you think it's important that Mitchell's name is absent from that document.
My take on what happened, is that Mitchell knew the Stone Maps had no substantial value. On the other hand, MOEL stock could be sold for cash. Easy answer......Sell the company the Stones for MOEL shares, sell the shares, and get out of Dodge.
The only thing that points to MOEL having to "donate", by court order, the Stone Maps, is rumor. There is, as far as I know, not a single scrap of documentation that even hints that anything like that took place. Everything concerning the authenticity of the Stone Maps, that is documented, is negative. Everything else is what someone heard or claims they saw.
You've been looking, hard, for awhile now. What's the most solid piece of evidence you have found?
Take care,
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Joe,
Every bit of evidence I have seen points to the exact opposite of your belief of how Mitchell felt about the stone maps.
From every scrap of paper I have seen, it appears very obvious that Mitchell was absolutely obsessed with the stone maps. He had his theory and was so mired in it, he came into a lot of conflict with all the other MOEL Principles. Reread the Peck letters. Read the Life Magazine Article.
Until hard evidence can be found, I am going with what Ray Grant says is the official museum take on how the stone maps came to the museum.
Personally, I think I had it opposite originally. I was told that the Cochranes had come in about 1965 and started a bunch of internal problems which culminated in them suing Mitchell and MOEL for ownership of the stones. Now, it looks more like Mitchell was forced to pass the stones to the group, and later he sued for ownership trying to get them back.
I also think that Mitchell found Janie Tumlinson in Texas and got Travis' Manuscript. I believed he used that to aid in writing his book. Maybe.
Mike
Every bit of evidence I have seen points to the exact opposite of your belief of how Mitchell felt about the stone maps.
From every scrap of paper I have seen, it appears very obvious that Mitchell was absolutely obsessed with the stone maps. He had his theory and was so mired in it, he came into a lot of conflict with all the other MOEL Principles. Reread the Peck letters. Read the Life Magazine Article.
Until hard evidence can be found, I am going with what Ray Grant says is the official museum take on how the stone maps came to the museum.
Personally, I think I had it opposite originally. I was told that the Cochranes had come in about 1965 and started a bunch of internal problems which culminated in them suing Mitchell and MOEL for ownership of the stones. Now, it looks more like Mitchell was forced to pass the stones to the group, and later he sued for ownership trying to get them back.
I also think that Mitchell found Janie Tumlinson in Texas and got Travis' Manuscript. I believed he used that to aid in writing his book. Maybe.
Mike
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Oh and Joe,
I don't spend much time at TNet either. All those BBs are probably the same person arguing with themselves.
Its one time I wish the mods would let me just go off on them. Just hope they don't discover this site. One thing I know for sure is that when they pop up on DUSA they don't last long. HAHAHA
Mike
I don't spend much time at TNet either. All those BBs are probably the same person arguing with themselves.
Its one time I wish the mods would let me just go off on them. Just hope they don't discover this site. One thing I know for sure is that when they pop up on DUSA they don't last long. HAHAHA
Mike
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Mike,
Just a bit of jousting.
But if you dimissed the story sooooooo last week, exactly what was your information that allowed you to single that particular item out of the story to be discarded it you still believed that Mitchell donated the stones?
I’m assuming soooooo last week was at least 3 or 4 months ago?
Can you share the other items from the story you have dismissed and what items do you still hold as being factual? I just want to make sure I’m keeping up with the times!
BTW, For whatever it's worth, I also believe Mitchell thought the maps were genuine. From the Mitchell-McGee correspondence Clarence was apparently still searching on his own several years after he got the boot from MOEL.
Garry
Just a bit of jousting.
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
I can understand how you would reach the conclusion that Mitchell never used the stone maps for a tax deduction once you had documentation that it wasn’t Mitchell who donated the stones to the Foundation. (Pretty Basic!)You wrote:
You have to keep up with the times! That whole tax deduction thing is sooooooo last week!
As with any good scholar of history, as new information comes to light, I compare it to my own opinions to see how it fits.
But if you dimissed the story sooooooo last week, exactly what was your information that allowed you to single that particular item out of the story to be discarded it you still believed that Mitchell donated the stones?
I’m assuming soooooo last week was at least 3 or 4 months ago?
Can you share the other items from the story you have dismissed and what items do you still hold as being factual? I just want to make sure I’m keeping up with the times!
I also got the story from Ray Grant and these are the words from an e-mail on July 25, 2010.You also wrote:
When Ray first told me that the story at the museum is that the stones were donated by force as part of some legal action, I had to rethink my position.
Your version of the forced donation may be soooooo last week?Garry,
I just talked to Lee Hammons……..
“He said the Peralta Stones were not given to the Museum because they were not scientific specimens and not appropriate for the state museum. The Flagg Foundation was given them as they were non-profit and not an official state organization. He did not believe there was ever any court case which was always the rumor that I had heard, but there is no record of it, so I think the investors must have decided to give the stones to an organization.”
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
From the receipt you posted, the museum never obtained the Stone Maps. The Flagg Foundation received them. Ray is Chairman of the Foundation which is a private entity. The Museum is something different.You also wrote on Treasurenet:
Ray Grant at the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum just sent me an email containing the accession document showing the basic circumstances of how the museum obtained the Stone Maps.
BTW, For whatever it's worth, I also believe Mitchell thought the maps were genuine. From the Mitchell-McGee correspondence Clarence was apparently still searching on his own several years after he got the boot from MOEL.
Garry
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Garry,
In the absence of documented evidence, we only have people's word to go by. The best word on the subject to date has been Ray Grant's. Before coming in contact with him, I was under the impression that the Cochranes had been troublemakers and somehow gotten themselves sihned on as MOEL Principles. Mitchell had to fight them to keep possession of the stones, which wound up with them being donated.
After finding out that Boyd Cochrane's name was on the accession document from the foundation, and not Mitchell's, I began to rethink the story. Combine that with the Peck Letters, and you begin to get a different vision.
Also, I don't see the value of the donation. If you read the accession document, the stones have no stated value, so just how much could you deduct? I can imagine that if one were to want to use their donation as a tax deduction, there would have to be some agreed upon value. There is none. Remember, you would have to use that accession document for the tax deduction.
So, my best guess is that due to either internal fighting over ownership or a legal dispute, the donation was made. I can't imagine that the story about a forced donation came out of nowhere at the museum.
Best-Mike
In the absence of documented evidence, we only have people's word to go by. The best word on the subject to date has been Ray Grant's. Before coming in contact with him, I was under the impression that the Cochranes had been troublemakers and somehow gotten themselves sihned on as MOEL Principles. Mitchell had to fight them to keep possession of the stones, which wound up with them being donated.
After finding out that Boyd Cochrane's name was on the accession document from the foundation, and not Mitchell's, I began to rethink the story. Combine that with the Peck Letters, and you begin to get a different vision.
Also, I don't see the value of the donation. If you read the accession document, the stones have no stated value, so just how much could you deduct? I can imagine that if one were to want to use their donation as a tax deduction, there would have to be some agreed upon value. There is none. Remember, you would have to use that accession document for the tax deduction.
So, my best guess is that due to either internal fighting over ownership or a legal dispute, the donation was made. I can't imagine that the story about a forced donation came out of nowhere at the museum.
Best-Mike
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Mike,
Lee Hammons was the primary person involved in the transfer. We have his story from Ray. That’s pretty good. Lee is 86 and everyone else is probably gone. I don’t believe he has an ax to grind as far as the donation.
I would like to throw out a little theoretical exercise.
Let’s say YOU were a shareholder and officer in MOEL in 1968. There is no money in the till, and the time when the maps might have been worth something significant has probably passed. Peck has his pictures, Mitchell has his pictures and probably several MOEL officers and maybe members have prints. Peck already deemed them almost worthless since there was little about the maps that weren’t known. You have no other assets. There seems little point in continuing to operate as a corporation.
What would you do with the stone maps?
Garry
I CAN!!!You Wrote:
“I can't imagine that the story about a forced donation came out of nowhere at the museum.”
Lee Hammons was the primary person involved in the transfer. We have his story from Ray. That’s pretty good. Lee is 86 and everyone else is probably gone. I don’t believe he has an ax to grind as far as the donation.
I would like to throw out a little theoretical exercise.
Let’s say YOU were a shareholder and officer in MOEL in 1968. There is no money in the till, and the time when the maps might have been worth something significant has probably passed. Peck has his pictures, Mitchell has his pictures and probably several MOEL officers and maybe members have prints. Peck already deemed them almost worthless since there was little about the maps that weren’t known. You have no other assets. There seems little point in continuing to operate as a corporation.
What would you do with the stone maps?
Garry
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Mike and Garry,
Having made many donations to charitable, non-profit organizations, I think I can shed a little light on the tax write-off thingie.......
You will notice that the statement at the bottom of the document says you can use the worth of the item you have donated for a tax write-off. It also states that the worth is "unknown". That means that the donor can set the worth at what they feel is a fair value. Most of the time, that flies with the IRS.
If you are trying to sell an item, and no one wants to pay your price, you can donate it and get much closer to the value you want out of it.
Happens all the time.
I have said all along, that I don't believe a court stepped in.....at any time, and got involved in the Stone Maps or ordered them donated to anyone. That is illogical.
Take care,
Joe
Having made many donations to charitable, non-profit organizations, I think I can shed a little light on the tax write-off thingie.......
You will notice that the statement at the bottom of the document says you can use the worth of the item you have donated for a tax write-off. It also states that the worth is "unknown". That means that the donor can set the worth at what they feel is a fair value. Most of the time, that flies with the IRS.
![Shocked 8O](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
If you are trying to sell an item, and no one wants to pay your price, you can donate it and get much closer to the value you want out of it.
Happens all the time.
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
I have said all along, that I don't believe a court stepped in.....at any time, and got involved in the Stone Maps or ordered them donated to anyone. That is illogical.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
Take care,
Joe
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
I would think the IRS would have issues with a deduction if the value was anything significant - after all, how in the world do you set a "value" on those Stone Maps???? It could be anywhere from $0 to whatever the donor's decided the value was.
Without documentation of some sort, you're back at square one with the stones having a value of nothing imho.
Without documentation of some sort, you're back at square one with the stones having a value of nothing imho.
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Paul,
Looking at how the IRS may view such a donation from today's perspective, may be a bit different than back then. There was no speculation, or very little, that was negative about their provenience. There had even been an article about them in Time Life, as well as a "book" written about the stones.
Not saying they could have made a case for their value that would stick, but they would never know until they tried. In any case, they had built a pretty good (circumstantial) case for them being very old and very valuable.
Right now, we don't really know if an inflated tax claim was submitted, or accepted by the government. What seems apparent, is that there were no buyers willing to pay what the owners wanted.
I believe, that was the most likely scenario......
Take care,
Joe
Looking at how the IRS may view such a donation from today's perspective, may be a bit different than back then. There was no speculation, or very little, that was negative about their provenience. There had even been an article about them in Time Life, as well as a "book" written about the stones.
Not saying they could have made a case for their value that would stick, but they would never know until they tried. In any case, they had built a pretty good (circumstantial) case for them being very old and very valuable.
Right now, we don't really know if an inflated tax claim was submitted, or accepted by the government. What seems apparent, is that there were no buyers willing to pay what the owners wanted.
I believe, that was the most likely scenario......
Take care,
Joe
- Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Joe,
I don't doubt that the investors likely tried to get as much yardage out of that donation as they could (I would have). I just doubt seriously that was the main reason for the donation.
While I am a stickler for wanting to know all the gory details regarding the history of the Stone Maps, right now, what has me re-examining everything I have in my possession are:
1. The two separate sources that describe TT as having added symbols on the stones to throw people off.
2. The fifth stone with the Indian Face.
3. Tumlinson's Manuscript.
Knowing every nitpicking detail about where each stone was every hour of every day from 1949 until 2010 IS important to me, but EVERYTHING on my list of "want to knows" is on a sliding scale of importance. As new information pops up, some things go down in importance while others may rise.
Fifth Stone (importance)> Detailed History
Best-Mike
I don't doubt that the investors likely tried to get as much yardage out of that donation as they could (I would have). I just doubt seriously that was the main reason for the donation.
While I am a stickler for wanting to know all the gory details regarding the history of the Stone Maps, right now, what has me re-examining everything I have in my possession are:
1. The two separate sources that describe TT as having added symbols on the stones to throw people off.
2. The fifth stone with the Indian Face.
3. Tumlinson's Manuscript.
Knowing every nitpicking detail about where each stone was every hour of every day from 1949 until 2010 IS important to me, but EVERYTHING on my list of "want to knows" is on a sliding scale of importance. As new information pops up, some things go down in importance while others may rise.
Fifth Stone (importance)> Detailed History
Best-Mike
Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present
Guys,
I was thinking along different lines that the tax deduction angle but I will add my 2 cents there also.
Any tax deduction for donating the maps would have been for MOEL Inc. only. They were the owners of the stone maps. If MOEL had income and filed a tax return, they might have used the donation to offset some of that income. MOEL had no income, was effectively out of business and would have no use for any deductions so I believe that part is moot.
The shareholders would certainly not be entitled to any deduction on their individual returns.
As far as what to do with the maps, I guess what MOEL decided to do initially was sell them to the highest bidder and go out of business. (Letter, Peck’s File, May 26, 1968)
The thing that boggles my mind is the mechanics of making all of that work. For talking purposes let’s say MOEL got a very generous offer of $10,000 for the stones. What would they do with the money? Pay it back to the shareholders as a return on their investment. You had roughly 200 share holders 1,000,000 outstanding shares and from my read each would be entitled to their share of the $10,000 dollars. In addition, the Mitchells and their daughter would come in for a large chunk of the money. (Not something that would make the present officers of MOEL happy.)
When we go a step further and look into the administration of paying back that money to shareholders, it would be no small task. Someone would have to try and run down an address for each shareholder. Many had moved, some had died, divorced, etc. I would further assume that the administrative cost of so doing would come out of the $10,000. (perhaps multiple mailings, issuing checks, maintaining books, etc.) It sounds like a job for a private company that specializes in that type of thing and not something that a couple of MOEL officers could undertake in their spare time. I wouldn't be surprised if that task alone would consume as much as $5,000. (Keeping my numbers round!
) A share holder with 200 shares would then receive a check for $1.00.
Since I doubt there was a value associated with the maps anywhere near $10,000 you can begin to see a picture. (Magill claimed he thought he could have purchased the maps from the foundation for $300 in 1973?)
I believe that upon reflection the officers may have finally said, “get rid of the damn things, give then to somebody.” I believe that is probably exactly what happened.
Legal activity requires money and MOEL had none, Clarence Mitchell certainly had none and what could “any” shareholder hope to gain by spending money on a lawsuit against MOEL. The shareholder’s investment was already gone.
What other entity could possibly be bringing suit against MOEL in 1968 or 1969? The best version we have is first hand from Lee Hammons and he didn’t believe the court was involved. (That’s also my story also and I’m sticking to it!)
Garry
I was thinking along different lines that the tax deduction angle but I will add my 2 cents there also.
Any tax deduction for donating the maps would have been for MOEL Inc. only. They were the owners of the stone maps. If MOEL had income and filed a tax return, they might have used the donation to offset some of that income. MOEL had no income, was effectively out of business and would have no use for any deductions so I believe that part is moot.
The shareholders would certainly not be entitled to any deduction on their individual returns.
As far as what to do with the maps, I guess what MOEL decided to do initially was sell them to the highest bidder and go out of business. (Letter, Peck’s File, May 26, 1968)
The thing that boggles my mind is the mechanics of making all of that work. For talking purposes let’s say MOEL got a very generous offer of $10,000 for the stones. What would they do with the money? Pay it back to the shareholders as a return on their investment. You had roughly 200 share holders 1,000,000 outstanding shares and from my read each would be entitled to their share of the $10,000 dollars. In addition, the Mitchells and their daughter would come in for a large chunk of the money. (Not something that would make the present officers of MOEL happy.)
When we go a step further and look into the administration of paying back that money to shareholders, it would be no small task. Someone would have to try and run down an address for each shareholder. Many had moved, some had died, divorced, etc. I would further assume that the administrative cost of so doing would come out of the $10,000. (perhaps multiple mailings, issuing checks, maintaining books, etc.) It sounds like a job for a private company that specializes in that type of thing and not something that a couple of MOEL officers could undertake in their spare time. I wouldn't be surprised if that task alone would consume as much as $5,000. (Keeping my numbers round!
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Since I doubt there was a value associated with the maps anywhere near $10,000 you can begin to see a picture. (Magill claimed he thought he could have purchased the maps from the foundation for $300 in 1973?)
I believe that upon reflection the officers may have finally said, “get rid of the damn things, give then to somebody.” I believe that is probably exactly what happened.
Legal activity requires money and MOEL had none, Clarence Mitchell certainly had none and what could “any” shareholder hope to gain by spending money on a lawsuit against MOEL. The shareholder’s investment was already gone.
What other entity could possibly be bringing suit against MOEL in 1968 or 1969? The best version we have is first hand from Lee Hammons and he didn’t believe the court was involved. (That’s also my story also and I’m sticking to it!)
Garry