Hello, I've been reading some of the topics in this forum and I've gotten the impression that the information Barry Storm put out in his books is not too highly thought of.
I can understand that impression about his conclusions, but what about the evidence he claims to give? Is all of that made up too? For example the places or objects listed in the photos, or the people he claimed to interact with?
Barry Storm
Barry Storm
Armchair,
We all tend to get a little "Down" on Barry Storm when we compare his work to some of the authors that followed him. We fail to remember that when Storm was searching and writing Trail of the Dutchman , (His first book) there were few references in the public library for him to refer to. Below is a list of everything I know of that was in print on the subject when he began his search.
Storm relied mostly on verbal stories he gleaned from the local ranchers and prospectors, and what he could pick up in saloons and other local hangouts. We can only imagine the many varaitions he heard of the same stories and the impossible task he had in sorting them out.
Barry Storm went into the mountains and attempted to apply what he had heard to the terrain out there. He did a wonderfull job of learning placenames and the stories he thought they applied to, and in getting them all written down for those of us that would follow in his footsteps.
There is little doubt that Storm witheld some information, maybe changed some, and may have invented some of his own to fill in gaps. Still, his works remain well respected in all circles and hold a special place in every Dutch hunter's book collection.
Without Thunder God's Gold (his second book) there would have been no Lust for Gold by Columbis Pictures, and without that, there may have been no book by Sims Ely and no legend of the Lost Dutchman mine.
Yeah, we beat Barry Storm around alot, but it is in the way of one brother bashing another. ie: I can do it, but I'll be damed if I will sit quietly and let you do it. Be carefull what you say about Barry Storm, he has many "brothers" here.
1899 G.A. Henty. The Golden Canon.
1910 Dane Coolidge. Hidden Water.
1920 The Lost Dutchman: Arizona's richest mine... & Val Jean Jr. Desert Gold and Other Verses.
1921 Jessie Flower. Grace Harlowe's Overland Riders Old Apache Trail.
1923 Zane Grey. Tappan's Burro.
1925 Mike Burns. The Legend of Superstition Mountain.
1934 Oren Arnold. Superstition's Gold.
1935 Joe Buckskin. When the Red Gods Made Men.
1936 Don J. Phillips. Poems of Arizona.
1939 Barry Storm. Trail of the Lost Dutchman.
Your questions are too general to respond to. If you pick a certain photo, item or landmark and ask a question about it, you may get more replies. Some members here have spent many years walking in Storm's footsteps and have sorted out a lot of his information. Some of them even openly bash him, but never without defending him at the same time.
redison
We all tend to get a little "Down" on Barry Storm when we compare his work to some of the authors that followed him. We fail to remember that when Storm was searching and writing Trail of the Dutchman , (His first book) there were few references in the public library for him to refer to. Below is a list of everything I know of that was in print on the subject when he began his search.
Storm relied mostly on verbal stories he gleaned from the local ranchers and prospectors, and what he could pick up in saloons and other local hangouts. We can only imagine the many varaitions he heard of the same stories and the impossible task he had in sorting them out.
Barry Storm went into the mountains and attempted to apply what he had heard to the terrain out there. He did a wonderfull job of learning placenames and the stories he thought they applied to, and in getting them all written down for those of us that would follow in his footsteps.
There is little doubt that Storm witheld some information, maybe changed some, and may have invented some of his own to fill in gaps. Still, his works remain well respected in all circles and hold a special place in every Dutch hunter's book collection.
Without Thunder God's Gold (his second book) there would have been no Lust for Gold by Columbis Pictures, and without that, there may have been no book by Sims Ely and no legend of the Lost Dutchman mine.
Yeah, we beat Barry Storm around alot, but it is in the way of one brother bashing another. ie: I can do it, but I'll be damed if I will sit quietly and let you do it. Be carefull what you say about Barry Storm, he has many "brothers" here.
1899 G.A. Henty. The Golden Canon.
1910 Dane Coolidge. Hidden Water.
1920 The Lost Dutchman: Arizona's richest mine... & Val Jean Jr. Desert Gold and Other Verses.
1921 Jessie Flower. Grace Harlowe's Overland Riders Old Apache Trail.
1923 Zane Grey. Tappan's Burro.
1925 Mike Burns. The Legend of Superstition Mountain.
1934 Oren Arnold. Superstition's Gold.
1935 Joe Buckskin. When the Red Gods Made Men.
1936 Don J. Phillips. Poems of Arizona.
1939 Barry Storm. Trail of the Lost Dutchman.
Your questions are too general to respond to. If you pick a certain photo, item or landmark and ask a question about it, you may get more replies. Some members here have spent many years walking in Storm's footsteps and have sorted out a lot of his information. Some of them even openly bash him, but never without defending him at the same time.
redison
Barry Storm
redison,
Thankyou for putting the comments I read about Barry Storm in perspective.
Thankyou for putting the comments I read about Barry Storm in perspective.
Barry Storm
In "Thunder Gods Gold" Barry Storm shows an article about finding a mine in 1940 and makes the claim that $87,000 of ore was taken from this find.
Has there ever been any information found to verify or dispute this claim?
Has there ever been any information found to verify or dispute this claim?
Re: Barry Storm
I'm going back to an old question I had five years ago. Did Barry Storm really find what he claimed?
At this point I'm of the opinion he probably manufactured one of his two greatest finds - the marker cactus. Seems likely he found the areas he wanted to point to, then shoved the stones into the cactus. Several months later he gets his team working in the area so they find the cactus...
Has anyone ever heard of any evidence it didn't happen this way?
At this point I'm of the opinion he probably manufactured one of his two greatest finds - the marker cactus. Seems likely he found the areas he wanted to point to, then shoved the stones into the cactus. Several months later he gets his team working in the area so they find the cactus...
Has anyone ever heard of any evidence it didn't happen this way?
Re: Barry Storm
While "marking" or "blazing" a saguaro might make some sense,since the marks would remain for the life of the cactus,I doubt that stones would stay in place for very long.
Why bother?When it's so much more work than a couple of cuts with a knife.Far too conspicuous as well,for a trail to something "secret".Same goes for unnaturally large piles of rocks,to be followed like a bunch of giant reese's pieces.........."Heh,Juan.How about we make a bunch of big markers soes we can find our way back to our secret gold mine?Them apache will never find em.Heck they maybe find the mine.They maybe even fill it up.But they never knock down them rock piles that we make.Or take the rocks outa the cactus'."
It is possible,of course,that Storm was taken in by something done as part of a fraud scheme by one of the many con-artists whose works we still ponder.Lots of folks out there before Storm came along.
Regards:SH.
Why bother?When it's so much more work than a couple of cuts with a knife.Far too conspicuous as well,for a trail to something "secret".Same goes for unnaturally large piles of rocks,to be followed like a bunch of giant reese's pieces.........."Heh,Juan.How about we make a bunch of big markers soes we can find our way back to our secret gold mine?Them apache will never find em.Heck they maybe find the mine.They maybe even fill it up.But they never knock down them rock piles that we make.Or take the rocks outa the cactus'."
It is possible,of course,that Storm was taken in by something done as part of a fraud scheme by one of the many con-artists whose works we still ponder.Lots of folks out there before Storm came along.
Regards:SH.
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Barry Storm
Hi Wayne,
What you have written makes sense, but I honestly never gave much thought to the Cactus Marker having been created by Storm. The description of the "find" seemed to have the ring of truth to it. I suppose it was the details that convinced me.
In addition to that, it all ties into other stories, maps and clues. That, of course, could have been done purposfully.
My Uncle Chuck had great faith in the Cactus Marker. Following the line up onto Black Top, he pegged the metal detector he was using ..... on the money.
That may have had a great deal to do with my trusting the marker for so many years. I am less certain today.
Take care,
Joe
What you have written makes sense, but I honestly never gave much thought to the Cactus Marker having been created by Storm. The description of the "find" seemed to have the ring of truth to it. I suppose it was the details that convinced me.
In addition to that, it all ties into other stories, maps and clues. That, of course, could have been done purposfully.
My Uncle Chuck had great faith in the Cactus Marker. Following the line up onto Black Top, he pegged the metal detector he was using ..... on the money.
That may have had a great deal to do with my trusting the marker for so many years. I am less certain today.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Barry Storm
Hi Joe:
"My Uncle Chuck had great faith in the Cactus Marker. Following the line up onto Black Top, he pegged the metal detector he was using ..... on the money."
Maybe you could flesh out the story a bit?
I really don't know very much about the stone marked cactus and the notables that found and successfully used it to locate a rich mine or cache of ore.I'm not suggesting that such things did not exist out there at one time,only that such markers do not make sense to me.I would like to think,perhaps only wishfully,that those things that were hidden so well from the many intelligent and diligent seekers could not be located merely by following a trail of such unnatural markers and monuments.I lean towards the idea that those that worked the mines or hid the loot were probably a bit too clever for that.
They could not anticipate future technology of course.If they had,though,it would have been easy to set up one or more "decoys".Maybe they did anyway,and the markers did serve a purpose after all?
Now,having given my opinion on that,I will state that I do keep an eye open for man made trail markers out there.One type that seem more credible to me are those of the single rock on a larger rock or boulder....Where...for example
Both the smaller and the larger have lichen growth evident on the same side ( the northerly/shady side in locations exposed to the sun for example).
That the lichen is contiguous (a plus for age estimations).
That the two rocks are of different composition,consistently.(shows deliberation)
That the smaller rock has a deposit of ex-foliated particles beneath it.(age again)
The smaller rock is positioned,securely and consistently,to indicate a to/from direction of travel. (more deliberation)
Regards:SH
"My Uncle Chuck had great faith in the Cactus Marker. Following the line up onto Black Top, he pegged the metal detector he was using ..... on the money."
Maybe you could flesh out the story a bit?
I really don't know very much about the stone marked cactus and the notables that found and successfully used it to locate a rich mine or cache of ore.I'm not suggesting that such things did not exist out there at one time,only that such markers do not make sense to me.I would like to think,perhaps only wishfully,that those things that were hidden so well from the many intelligent and diligent seekers could not be located merely by following a trail of such unnatural markers and monuments.I lean towards the idea that those that worked the mines or hid the loot were probably a bit too clever for that.
They could not anticipate future technology of course.If they had,though,it would have been easy to set up one or more "decoys".Maybe they did anyway,and the markers did serve a purpose after all?
Now,having given my opinion on that,I will state that I do keep an eye open for man made trail markers out there.One type that seem more credible to me are those of the single rock on a larger rock or boulder....Where...for example
Both the smaller and the larger have lichen growth evident on the same side ( the northerly/shady side in locations exposed to the sun for example).
That the lichen is contiguous (a plus for age estimations).
That the two rocks are of different composition,consistently.(shows deliberation)
That the smaller rock has a deposit of ex-foliated particles beneath it.(age again)
The smaller rock is positioned,securely and consistently,to indicate a to/from direction of travel. (more deliberation)
Regards:SH
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Barry Storm
Wayne,
Here is part of the story, which I posted back in 2004:
__________________________________________
In March of 1966 I was wishing I was with my Uncle Chuck, and making the trip into the Superstitions as one of what would have been called the "seven guns" on Black Top Mountain by Glenn Magill. Uncle Sam just did not see it my way.
On March 28. 1966 Chuck wrote the following letter:
"Dear Joe,
Well I recieved your letter and was very glad to hear you are all right.
Yes we came back from Arizona, but are leaving to go back the 1st. of April.
The area has change to such an extent you wouldn't recognize it.
Upon ariving at Apache Junct. we continued our way to First Water Ranch
then straight east across West Boulder & East Boulder Canyon, until we came to Needle Canyon, than north for 3/8 mile.
We Camped under some real nice trees with running water 30 yds. away.
There is a cave to the left of our camp site and actual proof that Jacob Weiser & the dutchman were camped there, because we found square nails in the wall.
Well, the next morning we started looking for the elusive gold.
We went south towards Weavers Needle to a spot that would match where the cactus would be, but we couldn't find it. But on the way to this cactus we found a Spanish muleshoe. At this point I was pretty excited & not thinking to straight.
The next morning I & Dr. Phillips made our way up Black Top Mtn. to where the (petroglyphs) Spanish signs were. Well, they were there so I aligned myself to look S/East to the natural stone face marker & there she was.
Well, I told Tom that what we were looking for lay on that line to the stone face marker. But we had to have an idea of where the cactus with the stones would intersect this line.
In the meantime Manual (That would be Manual Salado) had made his way towards us, from way down canyon and just by fluke luck was on the same line that we were on.
Well, anyway he spoted this ridge & made for it, while we were coming down. So he says, hell! don't look anymore I found it. Tom checked it with the detectron and it went ape shit. But I still wanted to find that Cactus Marker, so I stood at the point where the reading was so high & calibrated my compass to find due east and it aligned up to a crevace on Bluff Springs Mtn.
Any how, we started moving rock away and ran smack into Caliche Cement, with no means of breaking through.
I dropped down about 4 feet to come up underneath it, and found a mule shoe carved into the rock. Manual had the torn shoe on his belt so I asked him for it, and layed it down on top of the carving, well it fit to a tee pointing directly to the opening we had made.
After this we left for home, and returned a week later with, what we thought would get in. But to no avail we were stoped. Well with nothing to do & time runing short, I decided to find that Cactus Marker. We went down to a fellow named Al Morrow who has been in there 12 years, digging in a hole, so I asked him. He was real nice & took me to where it used to be, it had been destroyed & in it's place was a rock with carved out circle & 4 lines. Well I layed my compass down and checked the alignment, it was perfect. The west line ran right through where we were working, so I knew that my figures were correct.
Now were going again but with dynamite & drills to pop it open.
Joe we checked the dirt away from the spot, along with the rocks & could get no reading, then we walked up to the spot & the needle went completely off scale on the low intensity scale.
Fisher Laboratories from Palo Alto checked everything we did & how we used the equipment, his finding's were that there was something very big underneath aprox. 6 feet down the size of a car body!!!!
So there you have it.
I checked my compass near the point in question to find if it was iron or possibly a meteorite. These would effect my compass.
Manual says he found it!
Well, I don't know. Maybe he did, but I do know he would never have known where to start or that it even existed. He says it isn't rough & he could find his way from any direction with no provlems. !Quen Sabe!
Well Joe it's time for me to go, so I will close wishing you the best."
_____________________________________________________
That's pretty close to what he wrote with only a few lines missing, which have no bearing on the content.
That was Chuck's first meeting with Al Morrow, and they became close friends. Al told Chuck "never go into my claim when it's raining, it's to dangerous". Makes you wonder why Al was in there. Quien Sabe?
_______________________________________________________
Even though I have Chucks drawing of how he figured out where he wanted to go from the Cactus Marker, I could never explain it to anyone. My uncle dropped out of grade school and went to work. Later on in his life, he got interested in math and self taught himself out of books. He was very good at it........all the way to advance trigonometry. Chuck was not your usual drop-out.
Hope you found the letter interesting.
Take care,
Joe
Here is part of the story, which I posted back in 2004:
__________________________________________
In March of 1966 I was wishing I was with my Uncle Chuck, and making the trip into the Superstitions as one of what would have been called the "seven guns" on Black Top Mountain by Glenn Magill. Uncle Sam just did not see it my way.
On March 28. 1966 Chuck wrote the following letter:
"Dear Joe,
Well I recieved your letter and was very glad to hear you are all right.
Yes we came back from Arizona, but are leaving to go back the 1st. of April.
The area has change to such an extent you wouldn't recognize it.
Upon ariving at Apache Junct. we continued our way to First Water Ranch
then straight east across West Boulder & East Boulder Canyon, until we came to Needle Canyon, than north for 3/8 mile.
We Camped under some real nice trees with running water 30 yds. away.
There is a cave to the left of our camp site and actual proof that Jacob Weiser & the dutchman were camped there, because we found square nails in the wall.
Well, the next morning we started looking for the elusive gold.
We went south towards Weavers Needle to a spot that would match where the cactus would be, but we couldn't find it. But on the way to this cactus we found a Spanish muleshoe. At this point I was pretty excited & not thinking to straight.
The next morning I & Dr. Phillips made our way up Black Top Mtn. to where the (petroglyphs) Spanish signs were. Well, they were there so I aligned myself to look S/East to the natural stone face marker & there she was.
Well, I told Tom that what we were looking for lay on that line to the stone face marker. But we had to have an idea of where the cactus with the stones would intersect this line.
In the meantime Manual (That would be Manual Salado) had made his way towards us, from way down canyon and just by fluke luck was on the same line that we were on.
Well, anyway he spoted this ridge & made for it, while we were coming down. So he says, hell! don't look anymore I found it. Tom checked it with the detectron and it went ape shit. But I still wanted to find that Cactus Marker, so I stood at the point where the reading was so high & calibrated my compass to find due east and it aligned up to a crevace on Bluff Springs Mtn.
Any how, we started moving rock away and ran smack into Caliche Cement, with no means of breaking through.
I dropped down about 4 feet to come up underneath it, and found a mule shoe carved into the rock. Manual had the torn shoe on his belt so I asked him for it, and layed it down on top of the carving, well it fit to a tee pointing directly to the opening we had made.
After this we left for home, and returned a week later with, what we thought would get in. But to no avail we were stoped. Well with nothing to do & time runing short, I decided to find that Cactus Marker. We went down to a fellow named Al Morrow who has been in there 12 years, digging in a hole, so I asked him. He was real nice & took me to where it used to be, it had been destroyed & in it's place was a rock with carved out circle & 4 lines. Well I layed my compass down and checked the alignment, it was perfect. The west line ran right through where we were working, so I knew that my figures were correct.
Now were going again but with dynamite & drills to pop it open.
Joe we checked the dirt away from the spot, along with the rocks & could get no reading, then we walked up to the spot & the needle went completely off scale on the low intensity scale.
Fisher Laboratories from Palo Alto checked everything we did & how we used the equipment, his finding's were that there was something very big underneath aprox. 6 feet down the size of a car body!!!!
So there you have it.
I checked my compass near the point in question to find if it was iron or possibly a meteorite. These would effect my compass.
Manual says he found it!
Well, I don't know. Maybe he did, but I do know he would never have known where to start or that it even existed. He says it isn't rough & he could find his way from any direction with no provlems. !Quen Sabe!
Well Joe it's time for me to go, so I will close wishing you the best."
_____________________________________________________
That's pretty close to what he wrote with only a few lines missing, which have no bearing on the content.
That was Chuck's first meeting with Al Morrow, and they became close friends. Al told Chuck "never go into my claim when it's raining, it's to dangerous". Makes you wonder why Al was in there. Quien Sabe?
_______________________________________________________
Even though I have Chucks drawing of how he figured out where he wanted to go from the Cactus Marker, I could never explain it to anyone. My uncle dropped out of grade school and went to work. Later on in his life, he got interested in math and self taught himself out of books. He was very good at it........all the way to advance trigonometry. Chuck was not your usual drop-out.
Hope you found the letter interesting.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Barry Storm
Yes,very interesting Joe and thanks for the repost.
Did Chuck ever indicate whether or not the group ever excavated to the body that the equipment indicated was there?
The mention of caliche caught my attention as well.
Having come across several places where "concrete" has been used out there,in remote places and for obviously different reasons and purposes,has prompted me to do a bit of research on the subject.Some of the answers to the "who dunnit and when" questions may actually be found in the composition of the material itself,as well as the purpose for which it was employed.This could be a subject worthy of more discussion IMHO.
Regards:SH.
Did Chuck ever indicate whether or not the group ever excavated to the body that the equipment indicated was there?
The mention of caliche caught my attention as well.
Having come across several places where "concrete" has been used out there,in remote places and for obviously different reasons and purposes,has prompted me to do a bit of research on the subject.Some of the answers to the "who dunnit and when" questions may actually be found in the composition of the material itself,as well as the purpose for which it was employed.This could be a subject worthy of more discussion IMHO.
Regards:SH.