Twin Buttes Markings
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Direction
Aurum,
Thank goodness you have returned. Peter and I were starting to bond.
An attempt was made to convert those coke ovens to a Motel for ORVs, but I believe it was abandoned.
You mentioned rock drawings. That might prove to be of interest if we could get some pictures.
Ewing Young made a wide swath thru the Southwest and had one of the earliest known encounters (of white men) with the Apache. Kit Carson rode with him at the ripe old age of nineteen.
Tracy,
Were you aware of the rock drawings and have you seen them?
Joe
Thank goodness you have returned. Peter and I were starting to bond.
An attempt was made to convert those coke ovens to a Motel for ORVs, but I believe it was abandoned.
You mentioned rock drawings. That might prove to be of interest if we could get some pictures.
Ewing Young made a wide swath thru the Southwest and had one of the earliest known encounters (of white men) with the Apache. Kit Carson rode with him at the ripe old age of nineteen.
Tracy,
Were you aware of the rock drawings and have you seen them?
Joe
Hearts
The shape we call a "heart" has an interesting history. It was only in the Victorian age that the symbol of a heart as we know it - the Valentine's Day heart - was equated with romantic love.
Prior to that, the symbol has religious connotations. The Catholic Church had a symbol of a heart called the "Sacred Heart" that - in Christian iconography - stood for the soul of Christ. Supposedly, according the the Church, this first appeared as such in the 17th century in a "vision" of St. Margaret Marie Alacoque. However, the heart symbol can be found from centuries earlier where the image appears in stained glass of catherals and in cloister decorations.
In the Middle Ages the symbol supposedly had secular meanings - the symbol was equated with union, togetherness, fire, and flight.
Playing cards using the spade, clubs, diamonds, and heart sysmbols can be traced back to French and German designs as early as 1600.
BUT... the symbol can be found to go back to ancient Greece and Egypt. In the Greeco world, the symbol was equated to a seed pod of the selphium plant - an extinct form of fennel - that was used for medicinal purposes. And in ancient Egypt it was equated to the mandrake root - seen as an arphodisiac - and the heart symbol resembled the shape of the root.
So... a heart can mean many things. Considering the symbolism to the Church... I think their meanings and interpretations of the symbol might be the ones that apply in this case (the case of the Twin Butte Markings).
Prior to that, the symbol has religious connotations. The Catholic Church had a symbol of a heart called the "Sacred Heart" that - in Christian iconography - stood for the soul of Christ. Supposedly, according the the Church, this first appeared as such in the 17th century in a "vision" of St. Margaret Marie Alacoque. However, the heart symbol can be found from centuries earlier where the image appears in stained glass of catherals and in cloister decorations.
In the Middle Ages the symbol supposedly had secular meanings - the symbol was equated with union, togetherness, fire, and flight.
Playing cards using the spade, clubs, diamonds, and heart sysmbols can be traced back to French and German designs as early as 1600.
BUT... the symbol can be found to go back to ancient Greece and Egypt. In the Greeco world, the symbol was equated to a seed pod of the selphium plant - an extinct form of fennel - that was used for medicinal purposes. And in ancient Egypt it was equated to the mandrake root - seen as an arphodisiac - and the heart symbol resembled the shape of the root.
So... a heart can mean many things. Considering the symbolism to the Church... I think their meanings and interpretations of the symbol might be the ones that apply in this case (the case of the Twin Butte Markings).
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Joe
Yes , I know about the rock drawings in and around Martinez canyon----I don't think there is any doubt they are indian----
TLH
PS
I am sure I have pictures of them someplace. There are several turtles drawn on the rocks. I believe it is an old indian advertizment
' Drink at gigglin' Turtles--coldest tizwan in the Gila valley "
TLH
Yes , I know about the rock drawings in and around Martinez canyon----I don't think there is any doubt they are indian----
TLH
PS
I am sure I have pictures of them someplace. There are several turtles drawn on the rocks. I believe it is an old indian advertizment
' Drink at gigglin' Turtles--coldest tizwan in the Gila valley "
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Credit
Aurum,
Thank you for the kind words. You will have to take second place in my fan club as I occupy the exalted position of president of the club.
Like most of the information I have put forth in this forum, that particular sidebar came from someone else, a good friend and partner on my team. He is a real researcher, unlike myself, on LDM history and has been involved for over forty years. Carolyn and I met him and his wife a few years ago and had lunch. I met him on the net and we had talked for a number of months. After lunch I compared impressions of him with my wife, and we decided to see if he would be interested in joining my team. He had worked out his own conclusions, well founded I might add, over his forty years at the task. I laid out my conclusions and what I had found in the mountains. Our conclusions were on opposing sides of the Grand Canyon,
both physically and mentally. At the end of, perhaps, fifteen minutes I was finished. He said "when do we leave." As you know, I have been known to talk a little, so I really appreciate a man of few words. He has not been back to his area of the mountains since.
Joe
Thank you for the kind words. You will have to take second place in my fan club as I occupy the exalted position of president of the club.
Like most of the information I have put forth in this forum, that particular sidebar came from someone else, a good friend and partner on my team. He is a real researcher, unlike myself, on LDM history and has been involved for over forty years. Carolyn and I met him and his wife a few years ago and had lunch. I met him on the net and we had talked for a number of months. After lunch I compared impressions of him with my wife, and we decided to see if he would be interested in joining my team. He had worked out his own conclusions, well founded I might add, over his forty years at the task. I laid out my conclusions and what I had found in the mountains. Our conclusions were on opposing sides of the Grand Canyon,
both physically and mentally. At the end of, perhaps, fifteen minutes I was finished. He said "when do we leave." As you know, I have been known to talk a little, so I really appreciate a man of few words. He has not been back to his area of the mountains since.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Heart of the Matter
S.C.,
Wow! You had to dig pretty far and deep for that information.
Joe
Wow! You had to dig pretty far and deep for that information.
Joe
Bob Ward
I was thumbing through Bob Ward's book last night looking for the Bilbrey Crosses. They were there. But, the photos are not too good. But, that is a different issue...
Anyway... in doing so, I noticed he had a picture (on page 18 I believe) of the Twin Butte markings. It seems he interprets the thing to the right of the heart as a seven. So, did Kenworthy. Since I have not seen it for myself I cannot say for sure what it is. Some have said dagger. And some an arrow.
But, if it is a "7" consider this: In the "Bark Notes" Bark has a section on Salazar. He also discusses three photographic plates. All showing this supposed mine Christobal Peralta was searching for at different distances. One had an enigmatic "7" on it. If the Twin Butte marking is a seven - or at least , right or wrong, thought to be a seven by some - then I wonder if there is a relationship between the Twin Butte markings and the mine sought by Christobal Peralta?
Anyway... in doing so, I noticed he had a picture (on page 18 I believe) of the Twin Butte markings. It seems he interprets the thing to the right of the heart as a seven. So, did Kenworthy. Since I have not seen it for myself I cannot say for sure what it is. Some have said dagger. And some an arrow.
But, if it is a "7" consider this: In the "Bark Notes" Bark has a section on Salazar. He also discusses three photographic plates. All showing this supposed mine Christobal Peralta was searching for at different distances. One had an enigmatic "7" on it. If the Twin Butte marking is a seven - or at least , right or wrong, thought to be a seven by some - then I wonder if there is a relationship between the Twin Butte markings and the mine sought by Christobal Peralta?
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Lucky Seven?
S.C.,
At the risk of looking like I am paying more attention to what others say than is necessary, Tracy has already addressed the Twin Buttes Seven subject.
The seven is actually a curved arrow pointing to the center of the heart. If that seems familiar, you have been paying, at least, some attention to the Stone Maps. The picture in Bob Ward's book, is of the Twin Buttes Markings.
I have been in touch with three department directors at N.A.U. They have been unable to find any reference to the mid-sixties work at Twin Buttes.
The Professor I am waiting to hear from may have some information for us. If not, I will see if they would be interested in dating the Ironwood now.
The seven on the photographic plates might be denoting the location of gold. Then again, it could be a reference to the "Seven guns on Black Top"
mentioned in The Killer Mountains, which, by coincidence, was my uncle's team.
Joe
At the risk of looking like I am paying more attention to what others say than is necessary, Tracy has already addressed the Twin Buttes Seven subject.
The seven is actually a curved arrow pointing to the center of the heart. If that seems familiar, you have been paying, at least, some attention to the Stone Maps.
The picture in Bob Ward's book, is of the Twin Buttes Markings.I have been in touch with three department directors at N.A.U. They have been unable to find any reference to the mid-sixties work at Twin Buttes.
The Professor I am waiting to hear from may have some information for us. If not, I will see if they would be interested in dating the Ironwood now.
The seven on the photographic plates might be denoting the location of gold. Then again, it could be a reference to the "Seven guns on Black Top"
mentioned in The Killer Mountains, which, by coincidence, was my uncle's team.
Joe