I've posted a few pics in the user forum. Have a look at the EDS signatures, some of the spikes are the same as those Cubfan has observed, although as I've stated previously, my artifact is of a much more heavily alloyed Bronze than his projectile. I should point out that Cubfans chemical analysis is quite good evidence to suggest that the archaeologists are mistaken in their analysis of "copper culture" artifacts. You see, they claim that the Native Americans worked the native copper of the UP essentially in it's raw form, which is very, very pure copper, with traces of silver, but not much else. It is obvious from Cubfan's work that the copper was processed in some way beyond it's native form. Once again the experts are left to explain the science. We are still waiting for that explanation. Excellent work, Cubfan!!
Critter
Yellow Jackets
-
critter
- Part Timer
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Second star on the right and straight on till morning
Curiosity
Cubfan, I must admit, I can't stop thinking about your artifact, it is truly compelling; my curiosity is stoked. I have a few more inquiries for you that may seem a bit odd or even out of line and if this is the case then I apologise in advance and mean you no disrespect; I am simply curious.
I've spoken to a number of people who have found these sort of esoteric objects, exclusively in the Great Lakes Region. In every case the person describes a sort of affinity for the object that is unusual, as though they knew deep down that it was something special, something more than the experts claimed. In some cases it's almost as though they believed that in some way the object chose them. Since you've obviously gone to some length to scrutinise this object more thoroughly than most people would even be capable of, and in your description of how the object came into your hands, I just wonder if you can relate to this. Just curious.
Many thanks,
Critter
I've spoken to a number of people who have found these sort of esoteric objects, exclusively in the Great Lakes Region. In every case the person describes a sort of affinity for the object that is unusual, as though they knew deep down that it was something special, something more than the experts claimed. In some cases it's almost as though they believed that in some way the object chose them. Since you've obviously gone to some length to scrutinise this object more thoroughly than most people would even be capable of, and in your description of how the object came into your hands, I just wonder if you can relate to this. Just curious.
Many thanks,
Critter
Critter, just a few things...
Although I've had intentions of showing it to experts in the field, I've not done it to date. The only people who have ever commented on it are folks like yourself on forums where I've posted photos of it.
I have visually compared it to other copper artifacts I've seen posted and to be honest, many of the other ones I've seen have the look of hammered copper that has been "rolled" or formed into a spear or arrowhead type shape. I've always thought my pieces has a "forged" look to it.
I'll look into Frank Joseph and see if he has an interest in documenting where exactly this spear head was found as well as send him some photos of it. You may have already posted a link to a means for contacting him - could you post it again when you get a chance?
As far as your other comment/questions, I'll be honest with you in that they intrigue me.
I know I love to find "unique" items, and I can tell you that take this spear head out on occassion just to handle it, look at it and wonder about it's history. Do I feel like I'm doing that out of some weird connection, or do I just find it to be a really intriguing and unique item?? I can't answer that.
For awhile, I used to have it in a safe deposit box which shows you what kind of value I place on it - both in uniqueness as well as personal family history. I had to take it out though because as I stated before, I like to be able to look at it now and then.
I know what you're asking and in a sense, yes I've always felt like that about the item - would I feel the same way if I found a truly unique fossil or unique piece of ancient jewelry though? Probably. Hard to say.
Glad someone else finds it as interesting and unique as I always have
I have visually compared it to other copper artifacts I've seen posted and to be honest, many of the other ones I've seen have the look of hammered copper that has been "rolled" or formed into a spear or arrowhead type shape. I've always thought my pieces has a "forged" look to it.
I'll look into Frank Joseph and see if he has an interest in documenting where exactly this spear head was found as well as send him some photos of it. You may have already posted a link to a means for contacting him - could you post it again when you get a chance?
As far as your other comment/questions, I'll be honest with you in that they intrigue me.
I know I love to find "unique" items, and I can tell you that take this spear head out on occassion just to handle it, look at it and wonder about it's history. Do I feel like I'm doing that out of some weird connection, or do I just find it to be a really intriguing and unique item?? I can't answer that.
For awhile, I used to have it in a safe deposit box which shows you what kind of value I place on it - both in uniqueness as well as personal family history. I had to take it out though because as I stated before, I like to be able to look at it now and then.
I know what you're asking and in a sense, yes I've always felt like that about the item - would I feel the same way if I found a truly unique fossil or unique piece of ancient jewelry though? Probably. Hard to say.
Glad someone else finds it as interesting and unique as I always have
-
critter
- Part Timer
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Second star on the right and straight on till morning
A reply
Thanks again, Cubfan, I'd have to say that based purely on the analytical data that your spearhead is forged. Only a destructive test would tell for certain, though. It has all of the chemical traces of such a process, which is probably why someone told you it is 1100 AD rather than 3000 BC. It is heresy to suggest that metallurgy beyond simple hot working was used in the Americas. You are correct in that the Native American style of crafting native copper was to hot work/roll it. The overall style of the artifact is also very clearly not Native American.
Also interesting to hear about how you kept it in the safe deposit box. I found my astrolabe when I was a young child and I always kept it in the safest place I knew, which was a little box I kept in the botton drawer of my dresser that I called my "safety deposit box". Of course, it was not really a safety deposit box, I just called it that because it resembled the ones I saw my parents put valuables into at the bank. If fact, I bought it the very same day I found the astrolabe because I wanted to keep it in a safe place. Interesting.
Frank Joseph can be reached through Ancient American magazine. Your best bet is probably to write a short article on your story, including your analysis and send it in. The journal is dedicated to documenting amateur as well as professional archaeological work and is peer-reviewed as well. You should also check out some of his books on the subject. I found them very useful and gained a lot of direction for my own research, perhaps you will as well.
Thanks again for sharing your story and your work,
Critter
Also interesting to hear about how you kept it in the safe deposit box. I found my astrolabe when I was a young child and I always kept it in the safest place I knew, which was a little box I kept in the botton drawer of my dresser that I called my "safety deposit box". Of course, it was not really a safety deposit box, I just called it that because it resembled the ones I saw my parents put valuables into at the bank. If fact, I bought it the very same day I found the astrolabe because I wanted to keep it in a safe place. Interesting.
Frank Joseph can be reached through Ancient American magazine. Your best bet is probably to write a short article on your story, including your analysis and send it in. The journal is dedicated to documenting amateur as well as professional archaeological work and is peer-reviewed as well. You should also check out some of his books on the subject. I found them very useful and gained a lot of direction for my own research, perhaps you will as well.
Thanks again for sharing your story and your work,
Critter
Hello Critter, Hello Paul,
thanks for sharing your finds and thoughts. I really enjoyed reading your observations.
You may find the attached interesting in light of your findings, particularly in terms of where the copper was going.
Figure 13: Sturdy, durable cargo vessels like this Phoenician "round ship" are positively known to have transported tin from the mines of Cornwall, England back to the eastern end of the Mediterranean from 1350 BC. Similar mining operations were being carried out on the northern shores of Lake Superior, where an estimated 500,000,000 pounds of copper were extracted in antiquity…none of which stayed in America. Evidence would suggest that the copper was transported back to the Eastern Mediterranean. Similar mining operations were being carried out at the far reaches of the globe…like at Sarina Beach, North Queensland, Australia, where mining, smelting of ore and building of a quay for loading ships took place. A similar smelter was recently found in Oklahoma (see www.viewzone.com ), then quickly covered by government bulldozers. It is very apparent that ancient ships were ranging all over the world in search of resources for thousands of years before the Christian era. The mathematical concepts found within ruined ancient structures like the pyramids or Stonehenge attest to the fact that ancient civilisations had a perfect knowledge of the size of the Earth and how to grid reference it for successful navigation to any point of the globe.
"Circlestone Observatory", Martin Doutre, 2002 Page 10
Interesting how mining operations would lay the foundation for later settlement activity.
Of course one of the Circlestone routes take you right over the deposits near the Great lakes.
Another route takes you to a island that currently lies in the Arctic. Odd how things just drift around.
Klondike
thanks for sharing your finds and thoughts. I really enjoyed reading your observations.
You may find the attached interesting in light of your findings, particularly in terms of where the copper was going.
Figure 13: Sturdy, durable cargo vessels like this Phoenician "round ship" are positively known to have transported tin from the mines of Cornwall, England back to the eastern end of the Mediterranean from 1350 BC. Similar mining operations were being carried out on the northern shores of Lake Superior, where an estimated 500,000,000 pounds of copper were extracted in antiquity…none of which stayed in America. Evidence would suggest that the copper was transported back to the Eastern Mediterranean. Similar mining operations were being carried out at the far reaches of the globe…like at Sarina Beach, North Queensland, Australia, where mining, smelting of ore and building of a quay for loading ships took place. A similar smelter was recently found in Oklahoma (see www.viewzone.com ), then quickly covered by government bulldozers. It is very apparent that ancient ships were ranging all over the world in search of resources for thousands of years before the Christian era. The mathematical concepts found within ruined ancient structures like the pyramids or Stonehenge attest to the fact that ancient civilisations had a perfect knowledge of the size of the Earth and how to grid reference it for successful navigation to any point of the globe.
"Circlestone Observatory", Martin Doutre, 2002 Page 10
Interesting how mining operations would lay the foundation for later settlement activity.
Of course one of the Circlestone routes take you right over the deposits near the Great lakes.
Another route takes you to a island that currently lies in the Arctic. Odd how things just drift around.
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Facts.....
Paul,
If you are interested in the facts, with sources, try this site:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html
All things considered, I doubt you need me to point you towards the truth here. My guess is that you have been there, and done that.
Take care,
joe
If you are interested in the facts, with sources, try this site:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html
All things considered, I doubt you need me to point you towards the truth here. My guess is that you have been there, and done that.
Take care,
joe
-
pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
a bookworm...
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that.
places copper mining 2000 years before the domestication of corn?
here's her resume, from her own page:
SUSAN RAPALJE MARTIN
EDUCATION
Michigan State University 1985 PhD Anthropology
Michigan State University 1977 MA Anthropology
Miami University (Ohio) 1970 AB Political Science
Dissertation: Models of Change in the Woodland Settlement of the Northern Great Lakes Region (Dr. Charles E. Cleland, Chair).
PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATIONS
American Anthropological Association
Society for American Archaeology
Michigan Archaeological Society
Ontario Archaeological Society
Conference on Michigan Archaeology
Wisconsin Archeological Society
COMMITTEES AND SERVICE
Society for American Archaeology
1994-1999 American Antiquity Current Research, Assistant Editor, Great Lakes region
1991-1997 Committee on Public Education (COPE); Michigan Education Network coordinator
Midwest Archaeological Conference
1997-1998 Bylaws committee member
EMPLOYMENT HISTORY
Michigan Technological University, Department of Social Sciences
1999- Associate Professor, Anthropology/Archaeology
1993-1998 Assistant Professor, Anthropology/Archaeology
1985-1993 Visiting Assistant Professor, Anthropology/Archaeology
1977-1985 Research Scientist and Instructor, Anthropology/Archaeology
RECENT PUBLICATIONS
in press Adaptive Strategies and Socioeconomic Systems in Northern Great Lakes Riverine and Lacustrine Environments: The Late Woodland of Michigan, with J.S Brashler, E.B. Garland, M.B. Holman and W.A. Lovis. In Proceedings of the Urbana Late Woodland Conference, edited by T.E. Emerson, D. McElrath, and A. Fortier.University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln.
in press Ancient Copper Mining: Facts, Fallacies, and Public Education. Submitted to Proceedings of the 28th Annual Chacmool Conference, Public or Perish: Archaeology into the New Millennium, edited by L. Beckwith and N. Saxberg. University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta, 1999.
in press A Site for All Seasons: Some Aspects of Life in the Upper Peninsula During Late Woodland Times." In Uncovering Michigan's Buried Past, edited by John R. Halsey. Cranbrook Institute of Science, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, 1999.
in press The Complex Formerly Known as a Culture: The Taxonomic Puzzle of Old Copper, with Thomas C. Pleger. In Taming the Taxonomy: Toward a New Understanding of Great Lakes Prehistory, edited by Ronald Williamson. EastEnd Books and the Ontario Archaeological Society, Toronto, 1999.
1999 Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin. Wayne State University Press, Detroit.
1998 Paleoethnobotanical inquiry of early Euro-American and Ojibwa gardens, with J.S. Balster, D.B. Landon, and M.R. Gale. Northeastern Naturalist, 5(3): 249-276.
1997 Prehistoric, historic, and present settlement patterns related to ecological hierarchy in the Eastern Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA, with J. S. Balster, M.R. Gale and J. Chen. Landscape Ecology 12(4):223-240.
RECENT REVIEWS
in press Review of Circles of time: Aboriginal land rights and resistance in Ontario, by David T. McNab. Wilfrid Laurier Press. Submited to CHOICE.
in press Review of Indigenous people's right in Australia, Canada, & New Zealand, edited by PaulHavemann. Oxford. Submitted to CHOICE.
in press Review of The Welcome of Strangers: an ethnohistory of southern Maori, A.D. 1650-1850, by Atholl Anderson.. University of Otago Press/Dunedin City Council. Submitted to CHOICE.
in press Review of Politics and the Museum of the American Indian: the Heye & the Mighty, by Roland Force. Mechas Press. Submitted to CHOICE.
1999 Review of Cambridge and the Torres Strait: Centenary Essays on the 1898 Anthropolotgical Expedition, by Anita Herle and Sandra Rouse. Cambridge. CHOICE 36 (11/12)
1999 Review of White Flour,White Power: From Rations to Citizenship in Central Australia, by Tim Rowse. Cambridge. CHOICE 36(9).
1999 Review of Inuit, Whaling and Sustainability, by Milton M.R. Freeman et al. Altamira. CHOICE 36(7).
1999 Review of Uncanny Australia: Sacredness and Identity in a Post-Colonial Nation, by Ken Gelder. University of Melbourne Press. CHOICE 36(5): 2827.
1998 Review of Hardaway Revisited: Early Archaic Settlement in the Southeast, by RI. Randolph Daniel. University of Alabama Press. CHOICE 36(3
1998 Review of Cahokia and the Archaeology of Power, by Thomas E. Emerson. University of Alabama Press. CHOICE 35(7).
1997 Review of Investigating the Archaeological Record of the Great Lakes State: Essays in honor of Elizabeth Baldwin Garland., edited and with an introduction by Margaret B. Holman, Janet G. Brashler, and Kathryn E. Parker. New Issues Press, Western Michigan University. Michigan History, March-April 1997:46-47.
RECENT PAPERS PRESENTED
upcoming An archaeological geophysics investigation of a sugar cane plantation, St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands: results of using multiple techniques to assess industrial as well as living sites, by Len C. Mankowski, Seth R. Lemke, Dr. Susan R. Martin, David K. Hayes, Dr. Patrick E. Martin, and Dr. Charles T. Young. Paper to be presented at the Symposium on the Application of Geophysics to Environmental and Engineering Problems.Feb 20-24, 2000, Arlington, VA. Sponsored by the Environmental and Engineering Geophysical Society.
1999 "Geophysical Characterization of a Sugar Mill on St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands" by Seth R. Lemke, Len Mankowski, David Hayes, Susan Martin, Patrick Martin, and Charles Young. Paper presented at the Third International Conference on Archaeological Prospection, Munich, Germany, September 9-11, 1999.
1998 "Examining the Links Between Technological Innovation and Population Growth in the Northern Great Lakes." Paper presented at the 63rd Annual Meeting of the Society for American Archaeology, Seattle, WA, March 25-29, 1998.
1997 "The Complex Formerly Known as a Culture: The Taxonomic Puzzle of Old Copper," with Thomas C. Pleger. Paper presented at the annual meeting of the Ontario Archaeological Society and the Midwest Archaeological Conference, North York, Ontario, October 24-26, 1997.
1997 "Adaptive Strategies and Socioeconomic Systems in Northern Great Lakes Riverine and Lacustrine Environments: The Late Woodland of Michigan," with J.S. Brashler, E.B. Garland, M.B. Holman and W.A. Lovis. Paper presented at the Urbana Late Woodland Conference, University of Illinois, February 27-March 1, 1997.
RECENT RESEARCH SUPPORT
"Using Archaeology to Explore the Changing Working Conditions of Slaves & Other Workers, Whim Plantation, St. Croix, VI" with Patrick E. Martin and David K. Hayes. July 1999. Funded. $28,489.
"High resolution magnetometer for non-invasive subsurface investigations in Archaeology, Geology, Environmental and Civil Engineering" with Charles T. Young. January 1999. MTU Century II Endowed Equipment Fund. Funded. $16,680.
"Non-Invasive Archaeological Investigations at the Estate Whim Plantation Museum, Frederiksted, St. Croix, USVI" with Charles T. Young. December 1998. MTU Faculty Scholarship Grant. Funded. $4200.
"Building GIS capacity for the Industrial Archaeology and Environmental Policy Programs at MTU: Year 2," with M. Hyslop, B. Baltensperger, and P. E. Martin. Michigan REF Project, MTU. Funded. $39,200.
"Funding to Support a Departmental Digital Library," with B. Baltensperger. Faculty Development Committee, MTU. Funded. $1000.
"Building GIS Capacity for the Industrial Archaeology and Environmental Policy Programs at MTU," with P.E. Martin, M. Hyslop, and B.H. Baltensperger. Michigan REF Project. 1997. Funded. $32,500.
"Proposal to fund Multi-Media Projection Equipment" with Bradley H.Baltensperger. Century II Endowed Equipment Fund, Michigan Technological University. 1997. Funded. $2200.
"Site Planning for Restoration and Interpretation of an Historical Industrial Complex on the Shore of Torch Lake" with Terry S. Reynolds and Larry D. Lankton. Osceola Township, Michigan. 1997. Funded. $15,000.
"Field School in Industrial Archaeology 1994-6" Michigan Bureau of History, with P. Martin and D. Landon. November 1993. Funded. $103,353. Continued FY 98. $18,000. Continued FY 99. $22824. Continued FY 00. $20000
"Curation of Archaeological Collections from the Hiawatha National Forest and the MTU Archaeology Laboratory" June 1994-6. United States Forest Service. Funded. $7,350. Continued FY 97. $6303. Continued FY 00. $4046.
"Memorandum of Understanding for Curatorial Services between the Ottawa National Forest and the Industrial Archaeology Program of Michigan Tech." 1994-1996. United States Forest Service. Funded. $5439. Continued FY 96. $6,759. Continued FY 97. $7277. Continued FY 00. $3352.
AWARDS
1999 Historical Society of Michigan 1999 Award of Merit, Publications:Books category for Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin, Wayne State University Press.
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that.
places copper mining 2000 years before the domestication of corn?
here's her resume, from her own page:
SUSAN RAPALJE MARTIN
EDUCATION
Michigan State University 1985 PhD Anthropology
Michigan State University 1977 MA Anthropology
Miami University (Ohio) 1970 AB Political Science
Dissertation: Models of Change in the Woodland Settlement of the Northern Great Lakes Region (Dr. Charles E. Cleland, Chair).
PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATIONS
American Anthropological Association
Society for American Archaeology
Michigan Archaeological Society
Ontario Archaeological Society
Conference on Michigan Archaeology
Wisconsin Archeological Society
COMMITTEES AND SERVICE
Society for American Archaeology
1994-1999 American Antiquity Current Research, Assistant Editor, Great Lakes region
1991-1997 Committee on Public Education (COPE); Michigan Education Network coordinator
Midwest Archaeological Conference
1997-1998 Bylaws committee member
EMPLOYMENT HISTORY
Michigan Technological University, Department of Social Sciences
1999- Associate Professor, Anthropology/Archaeology
1993-1998 Assistant Professor, Anthropology/Archaeology
1985-1993 Visiting Assistant Professor, Anthropology/Archaeology
1977-1985 Research Scientist and Instructor, Anthropology/Archaeology
RECENT PUBLICATIONS
in press Adaptive Strategies and Socioeconomic Systems in Northern Great Lakes Riverine and Lacustrine Environments: The Late Woodland of Michigan, with J.S Brashler, E.B. Garland, M.B. Holman and W.A. Lovis. In Proceedings of the Urbana Late Woodland Conference, edited by T.E. Emerson, D. McElrath, and A. Fortier.University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln.
in press Ancient Copper Mining: Facts, Fallacies, and Public Education. Submitted to Proceedings of the 28th Annual Chacmool Conference, Public or Perish: Archaeology into the New Millennium, edited by L. Beckwith and N. Saxberg. University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta, 1999.
in press A Site for All Seasons: Some Aspects of Life in the Upper Peninsula During Late Woodland Times." In Uncovering Michigan's Buried Past, edited by John R. Halsey. Cranbrook Institute of Science, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, 1999.
in press The Complex Formerly Known as a Culture: The Taxonomic Puzzle of Old Copper, with Thomas C. Pleger. In Taming the Taxonomy: Toward a New Understanding of Great Lakes Prehistory, edited by Ronald Williamson. EastEnd Books and the Ontario Archaeological Society, Toronto, 1999.
1999 Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin. Wayne State University Press, Detroit.
1998 Paleoethnobotanical inquiry of early Euro-American and Ojibwa gardens, with J.S. Balster, D.B. Landon, and M.R. Gale. Northeastern Naturalist, 5(3): 249-276.
1997 Prehistoric, historic, and present settlement patterns related to ecological hierarchy in the Eastern Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA, with J. S. Balster, M.R. Gale and J. Chen. Landscape Ecology 12(4):223-240.
RECENT REVIEWS
in press Review of Circles of time: Aboriginal land rights and resistance in Ontario, by David T. McNab. Wilfrid Laurier Press. Submited to CHOICE.
in press Review of Indigenous people's right in Australia, Canada, & New Zealand, edited by PaulHavemann. Oxford. Submitted to CHOICE.
in press Review of The Welcome of Strangers: an ethnohistory of southern Maori, A.D. 1650-1850, by Atholl Anderson.. University of Otago Press/Dunedin City Council. Submitted to CHOICE.
in press Review of Politics and the Museum of the American Indian: the Heye & the Mighty, by Roland Force. Mechas Press. Submitted to CHOICE.
1999 Review of Cambridge and the Torres Strait: Centenary Essays on the 1898 Anthropolotgical Expedition, by Anita Herle and Sandra Rouse. Cambridge. CHOICE 36 (11/12)
1999 Review of White Flour,White Power: From Rations to Citizenship in Central Australia, by Tim Rowse. Cambridge. CHOICE 36(9).
1999 Review of Inuit, Whaling and Sustainability, by Milton M.R. Freeman et al. Altamira. CHOICE 36(7).
1999 Review of Uncanny Australia: Sacredness and Identity in a Post-Colonial Nation, by Ken Gelder. University of Melbourne Press. CHOICE 36(5): 2827.
1998 Review of Hardaway Revisited: Early Archaic Settlement in the Southeast, by RI. Randolph Daniel. University of Alabama Press. CHOICE 36(3
1998 Review of Cahokia and the Archaeology of Power, by Thomas E. Emerson. University of Alabama Press. CHOICE 35(7).
1997 Review of Investigating the Archaeological Record of the Great Lakes State: Essays in honor of Elizabeth Baldwin Garland., edited and with an introduction by Margaret B. Holman, Janet G. Brashler, and Kathryn E. Parker. New Issues Press, Western Michigan University. Michigan History, March-April 1997:46-47.
RECENT PAPERS PRESENTED
upcoming An archaeological geophysics investigation of a sugar cane plantation, St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands: results of using multiple techniques to assess industrial as well as living sites, by Len C. Mankowski, Seth R. Lemke, Dr. Susan R. Martin, David K. Hayes, Dr. Patrick E. Martin, and Dr. Charles T. Young. Paper to be presented at the Symposium on the Application of Geophysics to Environmental and Engineering Problems.Feb 20-24, 2000, Arlington, VA. Sponsored by the Environmental and Engineering Geophysical Society.
1999 "Geophysical Characterization of a Sugar Mill on St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands" by Seth R. Lemke, Len Mankowski, David Hayes, Susan Martin, Patrick Martin, and Charles Young. Paper presented at the Third International Conference on Archaeological Prospection, Munich, Germany, September 9-11, 1999.
1998 "Examining the Links Between Technological Innovation and Population Growth in the Northern Great Lakes." Paper presented at the 63rd Annual Meeting of the Society for American Archaeology, Seattle, WA, March 25-29, 1998.
1997 "The Complex Formerly Known as a Culture: The Taxonomic Puzzle of Old Copper," with Thomas C. Pleger. Paper presented at the annual meeting of the Ontario Archaeological Society and the Midwest Archaeological Conference, North York, Ontario, October 24-26, 1997.
1997 "Adaptive Strategies and Socioeconomic Systems in Northern Great Lakes Riverine and Lacustrine Environments: The Late Woodland of Michigan," with J.S. Brashler, E.B. Garland, M.B. Holman and W.A. Lovis. Paper presented at the Urbana Late Woodland Conference, University of Illinois, February 27-March 1, 1997.
RECENT RESEARCH SUPPORT
"Using Archaeology to Explore the Changing Working Conditions of Slaves & Other Workers, Whim Plantation, St. Croix, VI" with Patrick E. Martin and David K. Hayes. July 1999. Funded. $28,489.
"High resolution magnetometer for non-invasive subsurface investigations in Archaeology, Geology, Environmental and Civil Engineering" with Charles T. Young. January 1999. MTU Century II Endowed Equipment Fund. Funded. $16,680.
"Non-Invasive Archaeological Investigations at the Estate Whim Plantation Museum, Frederiksted, St. Croix, USVI" with Charles T. Young. December 1998. MTU Faculty Scholarship Grant. Funded. $4200.
"Building GIS capacity for the Industrial Archaeology and Environmental Policy Programs at MTU: Year 2," with M. Hyslop, B. Baltensperger, and P. E. Martin. Michigan REF Project, MTU. Funded. $39,200.
"Funding to Support a Departmental Digital Library," with B. Baltensperger. Faculty Development Committee, MTU. Funded. $1000.
"Building GIS Capacity for the Industrial Archaeology and Environmental Policy Programs at MTU," with P.E. Martin, M. Hyslop, and B.H. Baltensperger. Michigan REF Project. 1997. Funded. $32,500.
"Proposal to fund Multi-Media Projection Equipment" with Bradley H.Baltensperger. Century II Endowed Equipment Fund, Michigan Technological University. 1997. Funded. $2200.
"Site Planning for Restoration and Interpretation of an Historical Industrial Complex on the Shore of Torch Lake" with Terry S. Reynolds and Larry D. Lankton. Osceola Township, Michigan. 1997. Funded. $15,000.
"Field School in Industrial Archaeology 1994-6" Michigan Bureau of History, with P. Martin and D. Landon. November 1993. Funded. $103,353. Continued FY 98. $18,000. Continued FY 99. $22824. Continued FY 00. $20000
"Curation of Archaeological Collections from the Hiawatha National Forest and the MTU Archaeology Laboratory" June 1994-6. United States Forest Service. Funded. $7,350. Continued FY 97. $6303. Continued FY 00. $4046.
"Memorandum of Understanding for Curatorial Services between the Ottawa National Forest and the Industrial Archaeology Program of Michigan Tech." 1994-1996. United States Forest Service. Funded. $5439. Continued FY 96. $6,759. Continued FY 97. $7277. Continued FY 00. $3352.
AWARDS
1999 Historical Society of Michigan 1999 Award of Merit, Publications:Books category for Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin, Wayne State University Press.
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Qualifications.....
pip,
[a bookworm...
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that.]
I can see where someone with your experience and background might find fault with this lady's qualifications. With that in mind, I would have no problem with accepting your opinion of my poor selection on a source for this subject.
Joe Ribaudo
[a bookworm...
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that.]
I can see where someone with your experience and background might find fault with this lady's qualifications. With that in mind, I would have no problem with accepting your opinion of my poor selection on a source for this subject.
Joe Ribaudo
I've never really studied the "copper culture" in the upper midwest - though it's interesting and I lived around there at one time, it's just not something I wanted to become a "student" of.
The link you posted Joe has alot of what I would consider to be valid, logical points and arguments against any "mystery" culture mining and removing vast amounts of copper away from NA. I'm not in a position to argue any of it simply because I'm not educated in it, but being a scientist by nature, my tendancy is to question the "mystery" assertions.
I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I've always wondered how these vast amounts of missing copper were determined - if what was said in the link is true, it throws just as much doubt as I had before about the validity of those huge numbers - the % error involved with the assumptions and final values would be outrageously high as well.
I deal in probabilities rather than absolutes most of the time in my work - in this case with the tiny bit of evidence I've looked through over the years, the idea of a mystery culture mining and removing vast stores of copper ore from NA seems more improbable than not. It would take more evidence to the contrary to make me change my mind at this point.
Interesting discussion though - I just wish I had enough room left in my brain to tackle more subjects than I'm already struggling with.
The link you posted Joe has alot of what I would consider to be valid, logical points and arguments against any "mystery" culture mining and removing vast amounts of copper away from NA. I'm not in a position to argue any of it simply because I'm not educated in it, but being a scientist by nature, my tendancy is to question the "mystery" assertions.
I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I've always wondered how these vast amounts of missing copper were determined - if what was said in the link is true, it throws just as much doubt as I had before about the validity of those huge numbers - the % error involved with the assumptions and final values would be outrageously high as well.
I deal in probabilities rather than absolutes most of the time in my work - in this case with the tiny bit of evidence I've looked through over the years, the idea of a mystery culture mining and removing vast stores of copper ore from NA seems more improbable than not. It would take more evidence to the contrary to make me change my mind at this point.
Interesting discussion though - I just wish I had enough room left in my brain to tackle more subjects than I'm already struggling with.
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
i wouldn't worry too much cubbie...if you read her material, she admits no one knows how much copper was removed, or just who did the removing of material.
http://www.social.mtu.edu/IA/IAWeb/martin2.html
click on faq ancient copper.
no anthropologist deals in absolutes...
http://www.social.mtu.edu/IA/IAWeb/martin2.html
click on faq ancient copper.
no anthropologist deals in absolutes...
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Just An Opinion.....
Paul,
If you like, I will bring my copy of:
Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin, by Professor Martin to the Rendezvous and you can take it home for awhile.....
"no anthropologist deals in absolutes..."
Glad to see that pip has been paying attention to my posts, because that is something I have often said.
That's usually accompanied by some comment about the next turn of a spade......
"a bookworm...
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that."
All of the above statements seem pretty "absolute" to me. Without personal knowledge, I should think it would be pretty hard to back up such comments. On the other hand, pip could be absolutely correct with his negative opinion of the professor's knowledge of the subject.
Perhaps pip can give us a site where we can peruse his qualifications and years of field work. That would certainly help to give more weight to his opinions of the professionals in archaeology.
Take care,
Joe
If you like, I will bring my copy of:
Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin, by Professor Martin to the Rendezvous and you can take it home for awhile.....
"no anthropologist deals in absolutes..."
Glad to see that pip has been paying attention to my posts, because that is something I have often said.
That's usually accompanied by some comment about the next turn of a spade......"a bookworm...
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that."
All of the above statements seem pretty "absolute" to me. Without personal knowledge, I should think it would be pretty hard to back up such comments. On the other hand, pip could be absolutely correct with his negative opinion of the professor's knowledge of the subject.
Perhaps pip can give us a site where we can peruse his qualifications and years of field work. That would certainly help to give more weight to his opinions of the professionals in archaeology.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Clarification......
For the record, and in the interest of accuracy, I would like to correct some of the comments that pip has made in error:
[a bookworm...
No field experience.
Only knows what she read...]
Professor Martin has been doing field work "since 1973". The resume that pip provided from the Internet is only an account of her "employment history and publications", and does not list every field season she has been involved in.
She has done field work in "Northern Michigan......Norway, Virgin Islands and New York", to name a few places. Her book on copper is a compilation of many researchers over many years. It does reference a number of "field reports and publications that chronicle the work done at MTU re: ancient copper".
As I have mentioned before, there are any number of experts in archaeology and other fields who are far removed from the subject. Once again, I offer Dr. Yuri Valentinovich Knorosov as a prime example of such expertise. Professor Martin is engaged in her profession, which is archaeology, and is well paid for her work.
Before denigrating the work of someone as qualified as Professor Martin, it might be a good idea to research her background, like I have done.
Joe Ribaudo
[a bookworm...
No field experience.
Only knows what she read...]
Professor Martin has been doing field work "since 1973". The resume that pip provided from the Internet is only an account of her "employment history and publications", and does not list every field season she has been involved in.
She has done field work in "Northern Michigan......Norway, Virgin Islands and New York", to name a few places. Her book on copper is a compilation of many researchers over many years. It does reference a number of "field reports and publications that chronicle the work done at MTU re: ancient copper".
As I have mentioned before, there are any number of experts in archaeology and other fields who are far removed from the subject. Once again, I offer Dr. Yuri Valentinovich Knorosov as a prime example of such expertise. Professor Martin is engaged in her profession, which is archaeology, and is well paid for her work.
Before denigrating the work of someone as qualified as Professor Martin, it might be a good idea to research her background, like I have done.
Joe Ribaudo
Orichalcum
Gentlemen:
An anthropologist`s interpretation of mining operations lasting thousands of years might not be the same as a geologist.
Wonder why so much copper was so important thousands of years ago?
Orichalcum. A gate.
Klondike
An anthropologist`s interpretation of mining operations lasting thousands of years might not be the same as a geologist.
Wonder why so much copper was so important thousands of years ago?
Orichalcum. A gate.
Klondike
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Orichalcum?
Ben,
Is it your opinion that someone who has a PhD and an MA in Anthropology would not be well enough versed in Geology to form an informed opinion on the copper myths of Michigan?
Orichalcum.........Shades of Critias! So that's where the Atlantians got their orichalcum. Now all you need to do is shoehorn the whole mess into 9,600 to 9,500 B.C. Good luck.
Thanks in advance.
Joe Ribaudo
Is it your opinion that someone who has a PhD and an MA in Anthropology would not be well enough versed in Geology to form an informed opinion on the copper myths of Michigan?
Orichalcum.........Shades of Critias! So that's where the Atlantians got their orichalcum. Now all you need to do is shoehorn the whole mess into 9,600 to 9,500 B.C. Good luck.
Thanks in advance.
Joe Ribaudo
Mr. Ribaudo,
If an anthropologist consider`s herself an expert in myths then by all means she should feel empowered to discuss whatever she wishes. When she crosses the boundary into interpretation of mining operations there perhaps is a greater possibility of error.
Have to say I enjoyed her rhetoric regarding the Pygmy Phoenician voyager slaves.
Setting aside the issue of the amount of copper produced I wonder what happened to the massive nuggets of pure copper that one assumes were more prevelant 10000 years ago than they are today?
Seems odd that the locals were running around with 5000 lb. copper nuggets? I am sure she has an answer since she is convinced that, "the prehistoric copper exploitation of Michigan, is none other that the race that discovered the continent, the indigenouse American Indians"
Interesting that she knows who discovered the continent and what they were up to. I imagine she is knowledgeable about Spirit Cave Man.
Hard to imagine him carrying around 5000 lb. copper nuggets. One might think the locals had more on their mine than well mining.
Having said all of this I have known a wonderful Archeologist for many years up close and personal. Have to say she has not lost her sense of wonder. A fine lady.
Orichalcum. Good for you. So that is where the nuggets went. that seems a better fit than the locals.
Then again there are the maps.
Klondike
If an anthropologist consider`s herself an expert in myths then by all means she should feel empowered to discuss whatever she wishes. When she crosses the boundary into interpretation of mining operations there perhaps is a greater possibility of error.
Have to say I enjoyed her rhetoric regarding the Pygmy Phoenician voyager slaves.
Setting aside the issue of the amount of copper produced I wonder what happened to the massive nuggets of pure copper that one assumes were more prevelant 10000 years ago than they are today?
Seems odd that the locals were running around with 5000 lb. copper nuggets? I am sure she has an answer since she is convinced that, "the prehistoric copper exploitation of Michigan, is none other that the race that discovered the continent, the indigenouse American Indians"
Interesting that she knows who discovered the continent and what they were up to. I imagine she is knowledgeable about Spirit Cave Man.
Hard to imagine him carrying around 5000 lb. copper nuggets. One might think the locals had more on their mine than well mining.
Having said all of this I have known a wonderful Archeologist for many years up close and personal. Have to say she has not lost her sense of wonder. A fine lady.
Orichalcum. Good for you. So that is where the nuggets went. that seems a better fit than the locals.
Then again there are the maps.
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Myth Expert.....
Ben,
I am unsure what the Spirit Cave Man has to do with this subject, but then your comments often leave me puzzled as to relevance. I am sure that has more to do with your higher level of education than my own convoluted thought process.
On the other hand, It would be helpful if you were more explicit as to what map you are talking about. As an example of my convoluted thought process, the first thing that came to mind, was the Piri Reis Map, rather than the Stone Maps.
That has more to do with how far away from the LDM this conversation is, rather than any connection to the Spirit Cave Man or the Early American copper myths. I don't believe there is an ounce of evidence for any early human carrying around a 5,000 pound copper nugget, whether from Nevada or Michigan. I will just have to take your word for all of that.
___________________________________________________________
[These authors (posters) overlook the requirements of science, particularly those about testing hypotheses objectively, yet offer speculations as though they were scientific fact. This failure to distinguish fact from fiction disadvantages people in a culture such as ours that prides itself in generating literacy but also succeeds in the generation of misinformation! Telling truth from myth is an important skill for citizenship, no matter what the subject.
Most of the myths take their 'truth' from mantra-like repetition rather than empirical evidence. In fact try as I have, it's often impossible to find the original sources of some of the ideas accepted as fact in these volumes! For example, when I read about the area in which I've lived and done fieldwork for twenty years, that being Houghton County, Michigan, I'm simply amazed! According to these books, there is evidence, everywhere, of Phoenicians, Bronze Age Europeans, and others sailing copper-laden flotillas from the Keweenaw home to the Old World! And I've apparently been asleep at the switch the whole time because I sure never found any such evidence!
The Enigmatic and Inscrutable Copper Culture People
MYTH: Turning now to the question of who the copper culture people were, a primary misstatement is that the copper was worked by a "virtually unknown race of people" (Sodders 1990:12).
FACT: Who, indeed, is this unknown race? Martians following Dr. Spock and the crew of the starship Enterprise? The race, if you are willing to use such a misapplied term, that is responsible for the prehistoric copper exploitation of Michigan, is none other than the race that discovered the continent, the indigenous American Indians. There are no discontinuities in biological variation in the Upper Great Lakes or in the rest of the Americas for that matter. There is unbroken continuity in populations, based on skeletal and artifact evidence, in the Upper Great Lakes, and there is absolutely no evidence that there is anything unusual or biologically separate about the populations that lived in the Upper Great Lakes during prehistory. To conclude otherwise is clearly a part of someone's separate reality. The trouble with this mystifying statement is that it also suggests that there is some scientific basis for drawing discrete racial boundaries based on archaeological information. This conclusion is absolutely false.]
Susan R. Martin
____________________________________________________________
I take it that you have a problem with the fact that Native American Indians were the first people on the continent. I don't believe there is any proof that they were not, but will leave that argument to the experts.
What would have been the proper way for any man of science to approach the site that I originally gave in this discussion, would have been to read the entire article before rushing off to find some nebulous proof of the professor not being qualified to publish an article debunking this myth. That would include people who are in such a rush to make me look bad, that they failed to read where Professor Martin writes that she had been doing field work in Michigan for "twenty years".
There are many cases on this Forum where people with very little knowledge or experience denigrate the words and works of those with many years of research and teaching in their fields of expertise. In Professor Martins's own words, she suggests that it might be best for a person to "confirm his facts about my activities rather than presume without information: never a scientific way to proceed." Actually the information was there all along, just unread.
I am more than able to make myself look like a fool. I don't need anyone else's help, but thanks for trying........again.
Joe Ribaudo
I am unsure what the Spirit Cave Man has to do with this subject, but then your comments often leave me puzzled as to relevance. I am sure that has more to do with your higher level of education than my own convoluted thought process.
On the other hand, It would be helpful if you were more explicit as to what map you are talking about. As an example of my convoluted thought process, the first thing that came to mind, was the Piri Reis Map, rather than the Stone Maps.
That has more to do with how far away from the LDM this conversation is, rather than any connection to the Spirit Cave Man or the Early American copper myths. I don't believe there is an ounce
of evidence for any early human carrying around a 5,000 pound copper nugget, whether from Nevada or Michigan. I will just have to take your word for all of that.___________________________________________________________
[These authors (posters) overlook the requirements of science, particularly those about testing hypotheses objectively, yet offer speculations as though they were scientific fact. This failure to distinguish fact from fiction disadvantages people in a culture such as ours that prides itself in generating literacy but also succeeds in the generation of misinformation! Telling truth from myth is an important skill for citizenship, no matter what the subject.
Most of the myths take their 'truth' from mantra-like repetition rather than empirical evidence. In fact try as I have, it's often impossible to find the original sources of some of the ideas accepted as fact in these volumes! For example, when I read about the area in which I've lived and done fieldwork for twenty years, that being Houghton County, Michigan, I'm simply amazed! According to these books, there is evidence, everywhere, of Phoenicians, Bronze Age Europeans, and others sailing copper-laden flotillas from the Keweenaw home to the Old World! And I've apparently been asleep at the switch the whole time because I sure never found any such evidence!
The Enigmatic and Inscrutable Copper Culture People
MYTH: Turning now to the question of who the copper culture people were, a primary misstatement is that the copper was worked by a "virtually unknown race of people" (Sodders 1990:12).
FACT: Who, indeed, is this unknown race? Martians following Dr. Spock and the crew of the starship Enterprise? The race, if you are willing to use such a misapplied term, that is responsible for the prehistoric copper exploitation of Michigan, is none other than the race that discovered the continent, the indigenous American Indians. There are no discontinuities in biological variation in the Upper Great Lakes or in the rest of the Americas for that matter. There is unbroken continuity in populations, based on skeletal and artifact evidence, in the Upper Great Lakes, and there is absolutely no evidence that there is anything unusual or biologically separate about the populations that lived in the Upper Great Lakes during prehistory. To conclude otherwise is clearly a part of someone's separate reality. The trouble with this mystifying statement is that it also suggests that there is some scientific basis for drawing discrete racial boundaries based on archaeological information. This conclusion is absolutely false.]
Susan R. Martin
____________________________________________________________
I take it that you have a problem with the fact that Native American Indians were the first people on the continent. I don't believe there is any proof that they were not, but will leave that argument to the experts.
What would have been the proper way for any man of science to approach the site that I originally gave in this discussion, would have been to read the entire article before rushing off to find some nebulous proof of the professor not being qualified to publish an article debunking this myth. That would include people who are in such a rush to make me look bad, that they failed to read where Professor Martin writes that she had been doing field work in Michigan for "twenty years".
There are many cases on this Forum where people with very little knowledge or experience denigrate the words and works of those with many years of research and teaching in their fields of expertise. In Professor Martins's own words, she suggests that it might be best for a person to "confirm his facts about my activities rather than presume without information: never a scientific way to proceed." Actually the information was there all along, just unread.
I am more than able to make myself look like a fool. I don't need anyone else's help, but thanks for trying........again.
Joe Ribaudo
Oz
Mr. Ribaudo,
Making folks look foolish is well a foolish enterprise. I would imagine you agree.
Actually spirit cave man has a lot to do with the discussion. Isn`t it wonderous that we moderns were able to locate a 9000 year old mummy in Nevada. Believe it is the oldest mummy ever found in North America.
"Nevada State Museum announced in 1994 that a mummy in its collection was dated at 9,400 Carbon-14 years – or about 10,600 calendar years. The museum spent $7,500 for a CAT scan of the remains and to employ a forensic artist put a clay face on a replica of the skull. The man's cranium, scientists said, has little in common with the skulls of any group of humans, living or dead, including American Indians.
The mummy and ancient remains found elsewhere could rewrite the history of the human occupation of the continent, experts said. The remains may tell a story of people who were here before the ancestors of the Indians came."
Well the least we can say is that the oldest located mummy found in North America is probably not a local.
In terms of mining operations I always felt that the extent and size of mining operations tell us a lot about the folks who were involved.
For example the extensive mining operations in South Africa are understandable in terms of a culture and people who exist in a high technological society. I could not conceive of such a mining endeavor being run by folks whose primary concern was simply to survive.
Such a mining operation would serve no purpose and would be a terrible waste of precious resources.
Or to put it another way I have no problem in believing the folks who created the ancient civilzation in Egypt could find their way to the Great Lakes, I have a lot of trouble believing the locals living in the Great Lakes thousands of years ago could find their way to Alexandria.
What was it Plato said, I believe Egypt or what became Egypt was under the sway of folks living in the Atlantic.
This then takes us to the 5000 lb nuggets. 5000 lb nuggets would be of interest to a culture that valued such things, and had the technology to well work them. No disrespect meant to the locals but their interests were probably in other things.
My comments regarding Orichalcum were meant to to throw light on two issues. The obvious being the reference to Atlantis the less obvious:
"Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book XI by Josephus, who stated that the vessels in the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum. Pliny the Elder points out that the metal has lost currency due to the mines being exhausted".
The Jewish connection is importent because it bears on the Superstition Mountains. Both Copper and Gold have been found in sufficent quantites to create Orichalcum. In fact a number of ancient artifacts have been located there that were made from Orichalcum.
This you can believe or not but it is true. I suspect certain items may show up sooner than later because of certain digs that are on-going.
Interesting you bring up the Stone Maps. They now lead to a rather interesting little pond in a pretty extensive cave system.
I enjoyed reading about your map but can`t say I really think highly of the whole thing. If you like it then it is what it is.
I was thinking of several maps in the Oz complex.
You know Mr. Ribaudo science can only take you so far then the mind must reach out to conclusions that are not inherent in the propostions if progress is to be made.
For example the most profound statement ever made regarding the Superstitions was made by what most would consider a mystic.
"For these are held as sacred grounds by groups who have, from period to period, changed the very face of the earth or the surroundings, for the very purpose of being misleading to those who might attempt to discover or to desecrate(to certain groups) those lands." Edgar Cayce.
Not sure quite how he figured this out but I guess even if he is a myth maker he somehow connected with a fundamental truth.
Perhaps the true essence of the thunder gods is more wonderous than can be imagined.
Have a good day.
Klondike
Making folks look foolish is well a foolish enterprise. I would imagine you agree.
Actually spirit cave man has a lot to do with the discussion. Isn`t it wonderous that we moderns were able to locate a 9000 year old mummy in Nevada. Believe it is the oldest mummy ever found in North America.
"Nevada State Museum announced in 1994 that a mummy in its collection was dated at 9,400 Carbon-14 years – or about 10,600 calendar years. The museum spent $7,500 for a CAT scan of the remains and to employ a forensic artist put a clay face on a replica of the skull. The man's cranium, scientists said, has little in common with the skulls of any group of humans, living or dead, including American Indians.
The mummy and ancient remains found elsewhere could rewrite the history of the human occupation of the continent, experts said. The remains may tell a story of people who were here before the ancestors of the Indians came."
Well the least we can say is that the oldest located mummy found in North America is probably not a local.
In terms of mining operations I always felt that the extent and size of mining operations tell us a lot about the folks who were involved.
For example the extensive mining operations in South Africa are understandable in terms of a culture and people who exist in a high technological society. I could not conceive of such a mining endeavor being run by folks whose primary concern was simply to survive.
Such a mining operation would serve no purpose and would be a terrible waste of precious resources.
Or to put it another way I have no problem in believing the folks who created the ancient civilzation in Egypt could find their way to the Great Lakes, I have a lot of trouble believing the locals living in the Great Lakes thousands of years ago could find their way to Alexandria.
What was it Plato said, I believe Egypt or what became Egypt was under the sway of folks living in the Atlantic.
This then takes us to the 5000 lb nuggets. 5000 lb nuggets would be of interest to a culture that valued such things, and had the technology to well work them. No disrespect meant to the locals but their interests were probably in other things.
My comments regarding Orichalcum were meant to to throw light on two issues. The obvious being the reference to Atlantis the less obvious:
"Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book XI by Josephus, who stated that the vessels in the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum. Pliny the Elder points out that the metal has lost currency due to the mines being exhausted".
The Jewish connection is importent because it bears on the Superstition Mountains. Both Copper and Gold have been found in sufficent quantites to create Orichalcum. In fact a number of ancient artifacts have been located there that were made from Orichalcum.
This you can believe or not but it is true. I suspect certain items may show up sooner than later because of certain digs that are on-going.
Interesting you bring up the Stone Maps. They now lead to a rather interesting little pond in a pretty extensive cave system.
I enjoyed reading about your map but can`t say I really think highly of the whole thing. If you like it then it is what it is.
I was thinking of several maps in the Oz complex.
You know Mr. Ribaudo science can only take you so far then the mind must reach out to conclusions that are not inherent in the propostions if progress is to be made.
For example the most profound statement ever made regarding the Superstitions was made by what most would consider a mystic.
"For these are held as sacred grounds by groups who have, from period to period, changed the very face of the earth or the surroundings, for the very purpose of being misleading to those who might attempt to discover or to desecrate(to certain groups) those lands." Edgar Cayce.
Not sure quite how he figured this out but I guess even if he is a myth maker he somehow connected with a fundamental truth.
Perhaps the true essence of the thunder gods is more wonderous than can be imagined.
Have a good day.
Klondike
Re: Oz
Your intelligence never ceases to amaze me.klondike wrote: You know Mr. Ribaudo science can only take you so far then the mind must reach out to conclusions that are not inherent in the propostions if progress is to be made.
For example the most profound statement ever made regarding the Superstitions was made by what most would consider a mystic.
"For these are held as sacred grounds by groups who have, from period to period, changed the very face of the earth or the surroundings, for the very purpose of being misleading to those who might attempt to discover or to desecrate(to certain groups) those lands." Edgar Cayce.
Not sure quite how he figured this out but I guess even if he is a myth maker he somehow connected with a fundamental truth.
Perhaps the true essence of the thunder gods is more wonderous than can be imagined.
Have a good day.
Klondike
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
-
JIM HAMRICK
- Part Timer
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:46 am
- Location: phoenix
- Contact:
yello jackets
For a time now I have read postings that made no sense to me. Now a metal called orichalcum has been referred to. I had to look it up to find that it is a mythical metal sometimes associated with the legend of Atlantis. Now I don't care what religion or beliefs each of you hold or do not hold (after all for what ever time this country has left, every one is free to believe as he or she wants,) but it looks as if a new camp has been established concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine. If some form of religion is being injected, would some one furnish a brief overview of this belief. As I have said I don't care what each of you believe but I would expect the same courtesy from you.
I am not to sure how we got from Hohokam artifacts to ancient mining of copper in the great lakes area but I would like to point out that the Mound Builders of mid America and the Hohokams covered much of the same time frame but the mound builders employed copper to some degree but I have never seen any thing fabricated from copper by the Hohokam.
jim hamrick
I am not to sure how we got from Hohokam artifacts to ancient mining of copper in the great lakes area but I would like to point out that the Mound Builders of mid America and the Hohokams covered much of the same time frame but the mound builders employed copper to some degree but I have never seen any thing fabricated from copper by the Hohokam.
jim hamrick
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
More Calalus.......
Jim,
You need to read Calalus to understand where Ben is coming from in this conversation. That and the story of Atlantis by Plato ties the whole conversation into the myth of the massive amounts of copper taken out of Michigan in pre-historic times.
You are correct about "orichalcum", as no one to this day can tell you exactly what it was, although some will give it a good effort. In the end, it remains a guess.
Someone calling himself "Robert the Bruce" wrote about this "connection" back in 2004. The guy is probably another "gatekeeper". It's fun trying to follow all the little clues that have been provided on this Forum and elsewhere, but I doubt there is any true substance to any of it.
That belief, and five bucks, will get me an average cup of coffee these days.
Hope to see you at the Rendezvous.
Take care,
Joe
You need to read Calalus to understand where Ben is coming from in this conversation. That and the story of Atlantis by Plato ties the whole conversation into the myth of the massive amounts of copper taken out of Michigan in pre-historic times.
You are correct about "orichalcum", as no one to this day can tell you exactly what it was, although some will give it a good effort. In the end, it remains a guess.
Someone calling himself "Robert the Bruce" wrote about this "connection" back in 2004. The guy is probably another "gatekeeper". It's fun trying to follow all the little clues that have been provided on this Forum and elsewhere, but I doubt there is any true substance to any of it.
That belief, and five bucks, will get me an average cup of coffee these days.
Hope to see you at the Rendezvous.
Take care,
Joe
Well, I am not even sure about the whole pyramid deal. How we got that all blown up is beyond me. Those pyramids are off the shoreline, not in the middle of the lake. They are supposed to be around 20-25 feet high and are built from layers of rocks. Probably a burial site I figure.
Impressive, but nothing even remotely like the Pharoh kind.
Know little about Michigan, except the vandals are probably stealing all the copper out of the houses in Detroit.
Impressive, but nothing even remotely like the Pharoh kind.
Know little about Michigan, except the vandals are probably stealing all the copper out of the houses in Detroit.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Calalus
Mr. Hamrick,
Perhaps you understand more than you realize.
Most of the LDM legend does not make sense, that is the way it was intended.
Simply put leading folks to certain portions of the range instead of other parts has been a multigeneration task requiring the time and energy of a lot of folks. A number of them dutch hunters.
Orichalcim is simply put an alloy of copper and gold. The technology has been around a long time and in the modern era has been employed with great success in the Andes.
To understand why the settlers from Europe made their way to Arizona requires a reading of a text that is not in the public domain.
As has been mentioned the dialogue of Plato`s named Critias is not available in its entirety, the completed text though has circulated for many years in private quarters and was the impetus for the exploration of portions of Arizona and the establishment of a permanent settlement near Tucson.
The dialogue describes the interior of the Superstition Mountains and given what the European explorers thought was hidden there their efforts were well justified.
Keep in mind the locals reference to the Thunder Gods and Covey`s comments and one can sense the magnitude of what was going there in pre-history.
Of course one perhaps is more comfortable focusing on the more recent history of the range.
Klondike
Perhaps you understand more than you realize.
Most of the LDM legend does not make sense, that is the way it was intended.
Simply put leading folks to certain portions of the range instead of other parts has been a multigeneration task requiring the time and energy of a lot of folks. A number of them dutch hunters.
Orichalcim is simply put an alloy of copper and gold. The technology has been around a long time and in the modern era has been employed with great success in the Andes.
To understand why the settlers from Europe made their way to Arizona requires a reading of a text that is not in the public domain.
As has been mentioned the dialogue of Plato`s named Critias is not available in its entirety, the completed text though has circulated for many years in private quarters and was the impetus for the exploration of portions of Arizona and the establishment of a permanent settlement near Tucson.
The dialogue describes the interior of the Superstition Mountains and given what the European explorers thought was hidden there their efforts were well justified.
Keep in mind the locals reference to the Thunder Gods and Covey`s comments and one can sense the magnitude of what was going there in pre-history.
Of course one perhaps is more comfortable focusing on the more recent history of the range.
Klondike