Hello Folks…
I’ve been reading this message board for the past few weeks (and going through the archived material), and I must say I’m very impressed with the knowledge and sense of community on display here, and I’d like to join in, if possible.
I’m not much of a treasure hunter, but the history and beauty of the Superstition Mountains have always had my attention to one degree or another. Recently, it seems, my interest has been on the upswing again. What rekindled it, I suppose, was a trip to a used book store, where I happened upon a copy of Curt Gentry’s “The Killer Mountains”. I read that book at an early age, and I thought it was a terrific tale. So, mostly for nostalgia’s sake, I bought it, took it home and read it, and enjoyed it once again. However, being older and possibly a tiny bit wiser, I could read between the lines a little and discern quite a bit of what I take to be Glenn Magill’s self-promotional tendency and Curt Gentry’s sometimes overly-employed flair for dramatic storytelling. On top of that, neither seems to have paid an overwhelming amount of attention to historical detail. Still, it all brought back fond memories, so I hauled out my other books (Storm, Jennings, Conatser, Sikorsky, etc, not to mention lots of old magazine clippings), and got immersed in it all over again. And of course I got on the Internet and searched for more information, which is how I found this excellent site.
Having studied up a little bit, I feel eager and somewhat obligated to participate in the discussion board, but I’m afraid my act will get old quick, since you all seem extremely well-informed on the LDM and the Superstitions in general, and I anticipate my input to be mostly in the form of questions. So, to test the waters and see how you folks feel about curious newcomers, I’d like to throw a few questions out there and see if anyone is interested in having a dialogue:
1. Back in the late sixties and early seventies, when I did most of my reading on the LDM, I was totally unaware of the Dick and Brownie Holmes angle on the story (I may have heard of Brownie in relation to the discovery of Adolph Ruth’s remains, but that’s about it). Did Dick Holmes’ tale of Jacob Waltz’s dying words emerge recently, or did I just miss it? Would anyone care to fill me in on how I can catch up that part of the story? I recently read Helen Corbin’s “Curse of the Lost Dutchman”, but I find it somewhat luridly written and lacking in believability (judging from some of the comments on this board, I’m not the only one). I’m thinking the writings of Glover, Kollenborn, and Swanson might be good places to renew my “serious” reading on the subject… does anyone have any other suggestions or input?
2. The single item that’s always bothered me most about the history of the LDM is this: given the fact that people have been searching for the mine for over a century without apparent luck, how is it possible that the Peraltas (or whoever originally developed the deposit(s) that later became the LDM) were able to locate the vein in the first place? It seems to me that mid-1800’s prospectors, working in extremely rugged, unknown country without much obvious mineralization would have had a mighty hard time finding such an elusive deposit (and it seems that everyone agrees that the LDM is an extremely anomalous and closely contained occurrence of ore). I wonder how it is possible that nobody else has been able to relocate any of the Peralta strikes (with the possible exception of the Goldfield area), especially since the disturbances associated with mining would add to their conspicuousness. Does everyone here accept the notion that Waltz’s and the Apache’s attempts at obscuring the deposit and its workings were successful to the point of preventing anyone in the last 100 years from relocating it? The whole notion sure does bother me. Beyond that, though, even if the mine workings were obliterated, wouldn’t such a rich deposit betray geologic clues, such as geochemical evidence in stream sediments and soils (or even placer deposits)? How about magnetic and/or gravity anomalies? I’d be very interested to hear discussion of that aspect of the problem.
3. Sometime in the next couple of years, I’d like to plan an extended visit to the Superstitions. Nowadays I’m more interested in landscape photography than attempting to find any lost gold, but I’d love see more of the mountains than I have from my brief hikes out of First Water and the Peralta trailhead areas. Would it be out of place for me to seek advice here on good camping spots, spring reliability, horsepacking options, and the best times of year for a visit? I have studied Carlson and Stewart’s hiking guide, which is excellent, but I have a number of questions that they don’t directly address. If that sort of thing is too far off-subject, just say so and I’ll get lost.
Well, anyway… I guess that’s enough out of me for now. Thanks for providing all the interesting discussion, and I hope to learn much more here in the future.
Thirsty
A few questions for discussion from a newcomer...
Hi Thirsty,
Briefly:
1) Tom Glovers first book is on my opinion, probably the standard that other works about the LDM are held up to these days. His second book is an annotated account of the Holmes Manuscript, which you seem to be interested in.
2) If people ever find out the truth about why the mine hasnt been found they will come closer to finding it. A pertinent question and one not really addressed by the forum yet.
3) Answer is: it depends. I have gone in in late June. I wouldnt recommend that time-frame unless you like bugs, snakes,heat and dehydrating rapidly. Nov-March is the time to go in. Carlson's book is excellent for water and such. Charlebois and Kane spring always seem to have water even in drought situations.
Welcome to the forum.
P
Briefly:
1) Tom Glovers first book is on my opinion, probably the standard that other works about the LDM are held up to these days. His second book is an annotated account of the Holmes Manuscript, which you seem to be interested in.
2) If people ever find out the truth about why the mine hasnt been found they will come closer to finding it. A pertinent question and one not really addressed by the forum yet.
3) Answer is: it depends. I have gone in in late June. I wouldnt recommend that time-frame unless you like bugs, snakes,heat and dehydrating rapidly. Nov-March is the time to go in. Carlson's book is excellent for water and such. Charlebois and Kane spring always seem to have water even in drought situations.
Welcome to the forum.
P
Welcome to our madness!
Well, you're asking the right questions. How did they find it originally - yup.
Good description of the Gentry book! You pretty much summed it up.
The Brownie Holmes manuscript showed up in the Arizona State Archives in 1944, but was promptly filed away and lost until the mid-1970's, when Robert Lee unearthed it and printed part of it in his book "The Lost Dutchman Mine - The Making of the Motion Picture", a small paperback book you can usually find in bookstores or on the internet, and a good read.
The Superstition Mountain Museum also sells the Holmes manuscript, except it's a photocopy of the original, and slightly different from Glover's version.
I agree with Peter that Tom Glover's book is far and away the best available on the LDM. Volume 1 is the real gem. That and the Carlson/Stewart book are the one-two punch for the Superstitions. Kollenborn's books take more of a historical perspective on the mountains and characters that have gone through them. He has a chapter on ore analysis etc that's fascinating.
Charlebois is a good water source, but you can't camp there anymore. La Barge spring usually has water. Of course, we're in a drought now so it's all iffy.
Feel free to jump on in anywhere, it's always good to hear from a new voice.
Well, you're asking the right questions. How did they find it originally - yup.
Good description of the Gentry book! You pretty much summed it up.
The Brownie Holmes manuscript showed up in the Arizona State Archives in 1944, but was promptly filed away and lost until the mid-1970's, when Robert Lee unearthed it and printed part of it in his book "The Lost Dutchman Mine - The Making of the Motion Picture", a small paperback book you can usually find in bookstores or on the internet, and a good read.
The Superstition Mountain Museum also sells the Holmes manuscript, except it's a photocopy of the original, and slightly different from Glover's version.
I agree with Peter that Tom Glover's book is far and away the best available on the LDM. Volume 1 is the real gem. That and the Carlson/Stewart book are the one-two punch for the Superstitions. Kollenborn's books take more of a historical perspective on the mountains and characters that have gone through them. He has a chapter on ore analysis etc that's fascinating.
Charlebois is a good water source, but you can't camp there anymore. La Barge spring usually has water. Of course, we're in a drought now so it's all iffy.
Feel free to jump on in anywhere, it's always good to hear from a new voice.
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Good Advice
Thirsty,
Welcome to the kinder and gentler LDM Forum. If things seem to slow down and get a little stale, just call me a worthless SOB which will get it rolling again, and I will have no hard feelings afterwards.
Peter and Wiz have given you sage advice. Historically mid to late March is probably the optimum time for a trip into the Supes. If I could only choose four books on the Superstitions and the LDM mine, they would be:
Glover, (first book) Ely, Carlson/Stewert and Robert Blair. If the LDM can be found, I believe it can be done with the information in those four books.
Your puzzlement as to why the LDM mine has not been found in the last 150 years is a valid question. Those who take the day hikes are sure to be wondering the same thing. Take any trail or canyon that will take you onto the main mountain ridge, play around there for a few days, and you will have a better feel for the problem. The same can and probably will be said for a hundred places in the Superstitions. Once you leave the well traveled trails, things tend to get a little dicey. Some of the older, less traveled or unused trails will give you a similar experiance. Do not go off the established trails ALONE. Carry all the water you will need while in the mountains, unless there is water running in the streams and canyons, and you have the equipment to purify it. I know from your post that you are experienced in navigating the outdoors, but do not underestimate these mountains. Don't think that you can't get lost. Carry a GPS and a good topo. Many an experienced hand has gotten lost once they left the main trails. Read the tale of Harry and his cave of gold bars in this forum.
Thanks for choosing to enter this hostile environment. New ideas and conclusions, will do nothing but help this forum.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Welcome to the kinder and gentler LDM Forum. If things seem to slow down and get a little stale, just call me a worthless SOB which will get it rolling again, and I will have no hard feelings afterwards.
Peter and Wiz have given you sage advice. Historically mid to late March is probably the optimum time for a trip into the Supes. If I could only choose four books on the Superstitions and the LDM mine, they would be:
Glover, (first book) Ely, Carlson/Stewert and Robert Blair. If the LDM can be found, I believe it can be done with the information in those four books.
Your puzzlement as to why the LDM mine has not been found in the last 150 years is a valid question. Those who take the day hikes are sure to be wondering the same thing. Take any trail or canyon that will take you onto the main mountain ridge, play around there for a few days, and you will have a better feel for the problem. The same can and probably will be said for a hundred places in the Superstitions. Once you leave the well traveled trails, things tend to get a little dicey. Some of the older, less traveled or unused trails will give you a similar experiance. Do not go off the established trails ALONE. Carry all the water you will need while in the mountains, unless there is water running in the streams and canyons, and you have the equipment to purify it. I know from your post that you are experienced in navigating the outdoors, but do not underestimate these mountains. Don't think that you can't get lost. Carry a GPS and a good topo. Many an experienced hand has gotten lost once they left the main trails. Read the tale of Harry and his cave of gold bars in this forum.
Thanks for choosing to enter this hostile environment. New ideas and conclusions, will do nothing but help this forum.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Welcome Thirsty.
I'll just braise your second item for now, as that one seems the least hit on by other members of this forum.
It's been said that the prospectors and miners at that time--especially the Spanish ones--were experts on judging land for its minerals. That is, they could see from many miles away any geological features that would or would not be conducive to mineral deposits. Striations, colors of the mountains and land surrounding, etc. So, in the couple hundred years that Coronado and others were trapsing through Arizona, it would seem that the rather standout features of the Superstitions would have drawn attention to themselves at some point. This is my theory.
But like just about everything else in the LDM arena, there is some disagreement that the Superstitions (especially the western part) are geologically gold-forming. Yet, there's the distinct possibility that the gold may have been dug, processed, and carried to other regions of the Superstitions.
I think the jury is still out on this one. But I hope my offering helps.
Cheers.
n
I'll just braise your second item for now, as that one seems the least hit on by other members of this forum.
It's been said that the prospectors and miners at that time--especially the Spanish ones--were experts on judging land for its minerals. That is, they could see from many miles away any geological features that would or would not be conducive to mineral deposits. Striations, colors of the mountains and land surrounding, etc. So, in the couple hundred years that Coronado and others were trapsing through Arizona, it would seem that the rather standout features of the Superstitions would have drawn attention to themselves at some point. This is my theory.
But like just about everything else in the LDM arena, there is some disagreement that the Superstitions (especially the western part) are geologically gold-forming. Yet, there's the distinct possibility that the gold may have been dug, processed, and carried to other regions of the Superstitions.
I think the jury is still out on this one. But I hope my offering helps.
Cheers.
n
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Subject # 2
nicoh,
You are up late. Must have watched the ball game.
Since Wiz has made this question a topic, it should give plenty of grist for the mill.
Joe
You are up late. Must have watched the ball game.
Since Wiz has made this question a topic, it should give plenty of grist for the mill.
Joe
Satisfying Thirst
Thirsty,
I too am interested in learning about the LDM and comparable lost mines of this era.
I started by reading history of the area before Columbus landed in the Americas. I found three documents available in "E-Format" on the net.
One document probably can be found by searching for "400 year history of TUBAC" This book covers the era from before the Spanish conquerers to the late 1800s (~400 pages).
The second book is found at:
http://www.azcu.org/historyof mining/
This book is the history of mining in Arizona (~36 pages).
The last book can be found under "Books of the Southw" which is supported by the University of Arizona Library.
By understanding the history, one can understand the reasons for some of the native reactions. One of these critical perspectives is the use of bubonic plaque contaminated blankets by a named Spanish officer to reduce the native Indian population.
I too am interested in learning about the LDM and comparable lost mines of this era.
I started by reading history of the area before Columbus landed in the Americas. I found three documents available in "E-Format" on the net.
One document probably can be found by searching for "400 year history of TUBAC" This book covers the era from before the Spanish conquerers to the late 1800s (~400 pages).
The second book is found at:
http://www.azcu.org/historyof mining/
This book is the history of mining in Arizona (~36 pages).
The last book can be found under "Books of the Southw" which is supported by the University of Arizona Library.
By understanding the history, one can understand the reasons for some of the native reactions. One of these critical perspectives is the use of bubonic plaque contaminated blankets by a named Spanish officer to reduce the native Indian population.
Charlie