In the available literature, these guys pop up a lot in connection with Julia's initial search. Less frequently, you see references to Hermann's search and anecdotes from people who knew him. But I've seen almost nothing concerning Rhiney and his search, nor many details about Hermann's search or theories. I didn't find the Desert Magazine interview with Hermann to be all that enlightening. Rhiney must have had some interesting search patterns, having gotten his information first-hand. Unless it's like Rosebud (I think) inferred, that he was just a hanger-on who didn't pay attention and wasn't really involved. If he searched all over the place at random, I'd have to think that his memory of Waltz's words was poor, or else that he was, after all, only a peripheral player. On the other hand, if he stayed in one area, it would be interesting to know where that was.
Does anyone have any info, stories, references, etc. they'd like to pass along? Ron, I know you must have plenty of information about both of them.
Also Ron: would it be possible for the site to refuse to let me start a posting until I've logged on, instead of waiting until I've written the whole thing out and tried to post it?
Hermann and Rheinhart - Mystery Men!
Hermann and Rheinhart - Mystery Men!
Last edited by Wiz on Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Rhiney
Wiz,
Most of the early searchers for the LDM searched all over the place. If they had information directly from Waltz, why did they search such a wide area? Holmes would be a prime example of this, since he had directions to the mine, starting from three different locations which he claims were given to him by Waltz, while he was on his deathbed. Julia, we can safely assume, had the true information on how to locate the mine, if anyone did.
She and her helpers were all good examples as well. Were they all liars or lied to by Waltz? You should draw your own conclusions as to who had the best information. Once you settle on the best candidate for the correct information, you have to decide where they went wrong. My money is on Julia. Once she went wrong, the rest were doomed to follow her false trail. I believe Holmes had the best chance to correct her mistakes, and did. What he was lacking, may very well have been the Waltz drawing. Lacking that key piece of evidence, the chances for his failure climbed dramatically. Is the answer to this puzzle to be found in the new clues and information that has and still is, being disclosed in the last few years? Many Dutch Hunters believe so and are being led down trails which are taking them into areas of the mountains, they had not
considered previously. Some find this new information keeps them in the same areas as their previous conclusions had led them into. One thing you might want to consider as you head down these trails, how many footprints are you walking in? Are you bumping elbows with the ghosts of previous Dutch Hunters, who went wrong right along with Julia Thomas and Holmes? They were there when the tracks were fairly fresh, for us they are faint indeed. Do you think you have better or more accurate information then they did? I think we have way more lies and false stories to deal with then they possibly could have.
Have a Merry Christmas!
Joe
Most of the early searchers for the LDM searched all over the place. If they had information directly from Waltz, why did they search such a wide area? Holmes would be a prime example of this, since he had directions to the mine, starting from three different locations which he claims were given to him by Waltz, while he was on his deathbed. Julia, we can safely assume, had the true information on how to locate the mine, if anyone did.
She and her helpers were all good examples as well. Were they all liars or lied to by Waltz? You should draw your own conclusions as to who had the best information. Once you settle on the best candidate for the correct information, you have to decide where they went wrong. My money is on Julia. Once she went wrong, the rest were doomed to follow her false trail. I believe Holmes had the best chance to correct her mistakes, and did. What he was lacking, may very well have been the Waltz drawing. Lacking that key piece of evidence, the chances for his failure climbed dramatically. Is the answer to this puzzle to be found in the new clues and information that has and still is, being disclosed in the last few years? Many Dutch Hunters believe so and are being led down trails which are taking them into areas of the mountains, they had not
considered previously. Some find this new information keeps them in the same areas as their previous conclusions had led them into. One thing you might want to consider as you head down these trails, how many footprints are you walking in? Are you bumping elbows with the ghosts of previous Dutch Hunters, who went wrong right along with Julia Thomas and Holmes? They were there when the tracks were fairly fresh, for us they are faint indeed. Do you think you have better or more accurate information then they did? I think we have way more lies and false stories to deal with then they possibly could have.
Have a Merry Christmas!
Joe
Re: Hermann and Rheinhart - Mystery Men!
Wiz wrote:If he (Rhiney Petrasch)searched all over the place at random, I'd have to think that his memory of Waltz's words was poor, or else that he was, after all, only a peripheral player. On the other hand, if he stayed in one area, it would be interesting to know where that was.
Wiz...
If you look at the fold out map in Helen Corbin's first book. (Kollenborn's Map) At the top of the page, to the right of the fold is marked "Herman Petrasch Camp. It is in Red tanks Canyon north of Whiskey Spring.
Rhiney had a cabin somewhere in this area. I thought it was marked on the same map but I can't seem to find it now.
It was the view of Weaver's Needle (see the Drawing on pg 87 of Corbin's first book) that kept Rhiney and Hermann in this area so long and is in fact how Hermann Mtn. got it's name. After Rhiney's death, hermann and Gottfried started moving northwest following that view of the Needle from the high points and eventually ended up on Peter's Mesa.
Gottfried was known as old "Pete", and spent so much time on the Mesa that it was named Peter's Mesa after him.
The view of Weaver's Needle looking like a right handed mitten continues north up on to Malapais. I don't know if the Petraches ever got that far north or not.
It strikes me odd, that Waltz would have used that view of the Needle as a landmark unless he had NOT known it would be visible from so many places. (Any high point along the entire line between Hermann Mtn. and Malapais) He must have spent most of his time in low country and only climbed to one high point where he saw that view. Never knowing that the same view (Shape of the Needle anyway) could be seen from so many other high points.
If there is any usable information in that drawing, it has to be in the shape of the saddle you look through to see the Needle as shown in the drawing.
The question then becomes: Has that part of the drawing been altered in any way as I suspect the Needle was?
Hermann knew the answer to that and it didn't do him any good. I have worked every high point along that line and it hasn't done me any good either. But HEY! You might be able to combine that information with something else you have and I don't know about, and find something I missed!
Good Luck to you!
LW
Last edited by Lone_Wolf on Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Mitten
Well now LW,
Are we talking about the back side or the palm side view of that mitten? Seems like that might make a difference no matter where you are looking from.
The Waltz drawing is accurate, as is.
Joe
Are we talking about the back side or the palm side view of that mitten? Seems like that might make a difference no matter where you are looking from.
The Waltz drawing is accurate, as is.
Joe
Re: The Mitten
[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Well now LW,
Are we talking about the back side or the palm side view of that mitten? Seems like that might make a difference no matter where you are looking from.
The Waltz drawing is accurate, as is.
Joe[/quote]
Good Morning Joe,
And a Very happy New year to You Sir!
After reviewing what I wrote, I have come to the conclusion that I was refering to the back of the hand view of the Mitten, so that it appears as the Left hand mitten (The thumb being on the right side as presented in Helen's book) Although, if you prefer it to be the right hand mitten, then it would be the palm side.
You could be right on target with your opinion of the accuracy of the drawing as presented in Helen's book. I certainly haven't come up with the gold using my opinion!
What still bothers me is: All along the route the Petrach's were known to have searched, the actual view of the Needle is such that the 'thumb' is viewed as being on the left side of the mitten. (opposite to the way it is presented in Helen's book)
Be it Rhiney or Hermann that was the source of the drawing (Thanks Aurum) the fact seems to be established that both of them more than likely were familiar with it. (in it's original and unaltered form).
I don't mean to challange your claim that the Needle can be viewed from some point out in the mountains just as it is presented in Helen's book.
But, If that is the way Waltz drew it, and it has not been altered, why then did the Petrach's spend so much time searching country where the view of the needle was backwards?
I do believe this drawing is the single most important clue to finding the Lost Dutchman Mine, and I believe the Petrach's believed that too!
What I find it hard to believe, is that they would spend their entire lives working in areas where that single most important clue didn't work!
Surely, they would have circled the Needle and found a spot where it did work before they set up a permanant camp and settled in like they did down in the Red Tanks.
My logic dictates to me, that they were working with an opposite view of that drawing than what has been presented to us.
Since my logic has failed to produce the mine for me. Maybe yours will produce it for you.
In that case, nobody would be happier for you than ME!
LW
Are we talking about the back side or the palm side view of that mitten? Seems like that might make a difference no matter where you are looking from.
The Waltz drawing is accurate, as is.
Joe[/quote]
Good Morning Joe,
And a Very happy New year to You Sir!
After reviewing what I wrote, I have come to the conclusion that I was refering to the back of the hand view of the Mitten, so that it appears as the Left hand mitten (The thumb being on the right side as presented in Helen's book) Although, if you prefer it to be the right hand mitten, then it would be the palm side.
You could be right on target with your opinion of the accuracy of the drawing as presented in Helen's book. I certainly haven't come up with the gold using my opinion!
What still bothers me is: All along the route the Petrach's were known to have searched, the actual view of the Needle is such that the 'thumb' is viewed as being on the left side of the mitten. (opposite to the way it is presented in Helen's book)
Be it Rhiney or Hermann that was the source of the drawing (Thanks Aurum) the fact seems to be established that both of them more than likely were familiar with it. (in it's original and unaltered form).
I don't mean to challange your claim that the Needle can be viewed from some point out in the mountains just as it is presented in Helen's book.
But, If that is the way Waltz drew it, and it has not been altered, why then did the Petrach's spend so much time searching country where the view of the needle was backwards?
I do believe this drawing is the single most important clue to finding the Lost Dutchman Mine, and I believe the Petrach's believed that too!
What I find it hard to believe, is that they would spend their entire lives working in areas where that single most important clue didn't work!
Surely, they would have circled the Needle and found a spot where it did work before they set up a permanant camp and settled in like they did down in the Red Tanks.
My logic dictates to me, that they were working with an opposite view of that drawing than what has been presented to us.
Since my logic has failed to produce the mine for me. Maybe yours will produce it for you.
In that case, nobody would be happier for you than ME!
LW
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Joe Ribaudo
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Questionable Search Area
LW,
What must we do to get someone else to jump into our conversations?
You ask "why then did the Petrach's spend so much time searching country where the view of the needle was backward's?" I have addressed this question a few time before, but will offer my theory again. I will assume you believe you have seen the peak (in the drawing) from all four directions of the compass. Can you tell me where it looks the same as the drawing? If not, what makes you think the Petraches could? Waltz knew that view was a narrow window and would probably not be found by luck. The only person he actually told how to find that view, missed the trail. The Petraches came to the same conclusion that you have, that the view in the drawing is backwards. You and many others are following in the footsteps of their conclusion. You will, in all probability, find the same mine that they did, if you are trying to use the drawing in your search.
Since most of the comments I have heard, seem to place a lot of confidence in the authenticity of this drawing, the logical question is: where is that view in each of your conclusions, or suspicions, as to the location of the LDM?
Aurum,
Thank you for the great post on this subject. It really gave me new and valuable information. Your comments on the work area and combined search by the Petraches for clues and landmarks, was especially on point for me.
Joe Ribaudo
What must we do to get someone else to jump into our conversations?
You ask "why then did the Petrach's spend so much time searching country where the view of the needle was backward's?" I have addressed this question a few time before, but will offer my theory again. I will assume you believe you have seen the peak (in the drawing) from all four directions of the compass. Can you tell me where it looks the same as the drawing? If not, what makes you think the Petraches could? Waltz knew that view was a narrow window and would probably not be found by luck. The only person he actually told how to find that view, missed the trail. The Petraches came to the same conclusion that you have, that the view in the drawing is backwards. You and many others are following in the footsteps of their conclusion. You will, in all probability, find the same mine that they did, if you are trying to use the drawing in your search.
Since most of the comments I have heard, seem to place a lot of confidence in the authenticity of this drawing, the logical question is: where is that view in each of your conclusions, or suspicions, as to the location of the LDM?
Aurum,
Thank you for the great post on this subject. It really gave me new and valuable information. Your comments on the work area and combined search by the Petraches for clues and landmarks, was especially on point for me.
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Questionable Search Area
I sure don't know Joe. Ya think maybe they are all out in the mountains looking for that spot. The weather sure has been great for it. And a lot of people save their vacation time for this time of year.Joe Ribaudo wrote:LW,
What must we do to get someone else to jump into our conversations?
I have a feeling that they will all show up at once with lots of comments about how we are both all WRONG!
I think I was pretty straight forward in stating that the Waltz drawing of Weaver's Needle didn't do the Petrach's any good, and it surely didn't do me any good.
If you've got a place where you think it fits without reversing it, I'd sure like to see it do you some good.
By the way Joe, did I mention that there are some verbal instructions that go with that drawing?
LW
Last edited by Lone_Wolf on Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Word
LW,
Actually, I already have those verbal instructions, but thanks anyway.
Joe
Actually, I already have those verbal instructions, but thanks anyway.
Joe
[b]VERBAL INSTRUCTIONS[/b]
For heaven's sake be carefull with those Verbal Instructions Joe!
From what I understand there are two sets of them in circulation.
The real ones lead you down to the Dutchman's Hidden Camp.
The Phoney ones lead you down to one of Kenworthy's "Spanish" Death Traps.
LW
From what I understand there are two sets of them in circulation.
The real ones lead you down to the Dutchman's Hidden Camp.
The Phoney ones lead you down to one of Kenworthy's "Spanish" Death Traps.
LW
Last edited by Lone_Wolf on Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Something else thats interesting and sort of connects the dots concerning the Waltz/Petrasch drawing.
John Chunning drew an outline of Weavers Needle for Jim Bark as described to him by Joe Deering. If the W/P drawing is REVERSED then the outine of the needle matches the Chunning drawing almost exactly.
Deering was alleged to say that the needle looked like the outline from the mine area. The Chunning outline shows no saddle, rather what the needle might look like if one was high up and looking over the crest of a hill or mountaintop.
This leads me to conclude..perhaps erroneously...that the W/P drawing was meant to be taken at a lower elevation where a saddle could be seen
and that the Chunning drawing was representing an area closer to the actual mine site(s). Of course, perhaps Waltz had his caches somewhere below the mine area and nearer his hidden cave and the W/P drawing was trying to get someone to the cache area. Deering on the other hand, was trying to get Chunning to the mine itself. Who knows...
John Chunning drew an outline of Weavers Needle for Jim Bark as described to him by Joe Deering. If the W/P drawing is REVERSED then the outine of the needle matches the Chunning drawing almost exactly.
Deering was alleged to say that the needle looked like the outline from the mine area. The Chunning outline shows no saddle, rather what the needle might look like if one was high up and looking over the crest of a hill or mountaintop.
This leads me to conclude..perhaps erroneously...that the W/P drawing was meant to be taken at a lower elevation where a saddle could be seen
and that the Chunning drawing was representing an area closer to the actual mine site(s). Of course, perhaps Waltz had his caches somewhere below the mine area and nearer his hidden cave and the W/P drawing was trying to get someone to the cache area. Deering on the other hand, was trying to get Chunning to the mine itself. Who knows...
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Joe Ribaudo
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Another Drawing
Peter,
Perhaps you do not need to reverse the W/P drawing to match the Chunning/Bark drawing.
Joe Ribaudo
Perhaps you do not need to reverse the W/P drawing to match the Chunning/Bark drawing.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe
One needs to REVERSE the W/P drawing to match the Deering/Chunning view of the Needle.
Of course...one could reverse the Deering/Chunning drawing to match the W/P drawing. Perhaps you would be more comfortable doing that?
Sorry, but my poor powers of elucidation prevent me from making the statement any more plain than that.
P
One needs to REVERSE the W/P drawing to match the Deering/Chunning view of the Needle.
Of course...one could reverse the Deering/Chunning drawing to match the W/P drawing. Perhaps you would be more comfortable doing that?
Sorry, but my poor powers of elucidation prevent me from making the statement any more plain than that.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Reversal of Fortune
Peter,
What you say is of course true, if the D/C drawing was done from the Black Mountain area. That is fairly plain. I am much more comfortable
reversing neither.
Your powers of elucidition are completely adequate for the information that you possess. In this case, it is your powers of judgement and deduction that COULD be wrong.
Of course, since you are much more familiar with that area, chances are, that I am the one that is wrong and I can live with that. I will know for sure if that is the case in short order and I assume you will soon know in your case as well. I will let YOU know as soon as possible so that one of us can quit wasting our time. Whether I am right or wrong, you can take that statement to the bank.
Joe Ribaudo
What you say is of course true, if the D/C drawing was done from the Black Mountain area. That is fairly plain. I am much more comfortable
reversing neither.
Your powers of elucidition are completely adequate for the information that you possess. In this case, it is your powers of judgement and deduction that COULD be wrong.
Of course, since you are much more familiar with that area, chances are, that I am the one that is wrong and I can live with that. I will know for sure if that is the case in short order and I assume you will soon know in your case as well. I will let YOU know as soon as possible so that one of us can quit wasting our time. Whether I am right or wrong, you can take that statement to the bank.
Joe Ribaudo
I will be the first to admit that my poor powers of judgment and reasoning may be inadequate for the daunting task at hand. While I am satisified with the location I am interested in, I believe that I could spend the rest of my life on that particular mountain and still find nothing of consequence. Dont get me wrong..theres plenty of sign and landmarks about...the problem lies in the rough terrain and whether or not I get lucky.
You sound like you have your own area of interest down to a workable section. Good luck in your search.
You sound like you have your own area of interest down to a workable section. Good luck in your search.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Luck
Peter,
We will all need luck, even if we have narrowed the search to a single ravine. The mines are all well hidden, perhaps too well for any success.
The only one that might be possible at all is the LDM, since it is the only one with any description or clues that we know of. Because most of the accepted maps and stories indicate my area and the specific ravine in particular, I do believe I have narrowed it down. That would, by the way, include your own favorite map. I am sure that has more to do with the hands that it passed thru, rather then any proof of authenticity. Julia's insane map is an example of the same thing. Because it started with her, it may very well show more truth then anyone might imagine, despite the three pine trees and other more obvious problems. Many of the maps came from or thru people who actually had very good information, they just made some wrong choices in their own searches.
I have already had my luck, by arriving at this location without private information. I do not expect much luck will be involved at this stage of my search, the mine will either be there or not, but I do appreciate all the good wishes we can get. I wish you the same.
Joe Ribaudo
We will all need luck, even if we have narrowed the search to a single ravine. The mines are all well hidden, perhaps too well for any success.
The only one that might be possible at all is the LDM, since it is the only one with any description or clues that we know of. Because most of the accepted maps and stories indicate my area and the specific ravine in particular, I do believe I have narrowed it down. That would, by the way, include your own favorite map. I am sure that has more to do with the hands that it passed thru, rather then any proof of authenticity. Julia's insane map is an example of the same thing. Because it started with her, it may very well show more truth then anyone might imagine, despite the three pine trees and other more obvious problems. Many of the maps came from or thru people who actually had very good information, they just made some wrong choices in their own searches.
I have already had my luck, by arriving at this location without private information. I do not expect much luck will be involved at this stage of my search, the mine will either be there or not, but I do appreciate all the good wishes we can get. I wish you the same.
Joe Ribaudo
Hi Joe,
I dont recall pontificating on my favorite LDM map. The Chunning/Deering
Drawing is a DRAWING, not a map. While I think it may be worthy of further study, it is hardly my favorite or the only clue I go by. Its simply another spoke in the wheel for me.
As to maps. I think there are a good half dozen that show the LDM area.
These are my favorites..but of course they are open to interpetation..and I of course labor under the handicap of my own addled wits. NONE of these maps show you where to put a pick in the earth..they more or less get you into a location that has been of interest over the years. Am I looking at them with my own brand of rose-colored glasses? Perhaps.
But it does pique my interest when different things line up and all point (for me at least) to one particular locale.
I dont recall pontificating on my favorite LDM map. The Chunning/Deering
Drawing is a DRAWING, not a map. While I think it may be worthy of further study, it is hardly my favorite or the only clue I go by. Its simply another spoke in the wheel for me.
As to maps. I think there are a good half dozen that show the LDM area.
These are my favorites..but of course they are open to interpetation..and I of course labor under the handicap of my own addled wits. NONE of these maps show you where to put a pick in the earth..they more or less get you into a location that has been of interest over the years. Am I looking at them with my own brand of rose-colored glasses? Perhaps.
But it does pique my interest when different things line up and all point (for me at least) to one particular locale.