LOST OR.....FOUND?

[Joe Ribaudo]

pip,

"i also suggested that after reading the cox letter posted above, that the entire description of the mine site is backwards....everything i have read from the 'experts' has the dutchmans 'pit mine' downslope from the peralta pit."

Would it be possible for you to cite the source for one of the "experts" who has written the above information?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

i beg your pardon....you have stated you walked to the ldm in question...
i asked if you followed the trail described in the cox letter.

No, the Cox directions in that letter are confusing at best.

i also asked if you saw the human remains cox described.

No. Human remains left out in the sun since that article was written would have turned to dust by now I also don't recall reading in the article about human remains. Might have missed something. I have trouble reading sometimes believe it or not.

...cox states clearly that the mineralization in this area is predomantly silver.

Yep, it is. That's why I keep telling people this isn't the LDM site. Waltz never talked about Silver that I know of, and there sure seems to be a lot of Silver in the area. We found some last trip You'd think with a mine as high grade as Waltz's mine there would be some gold left lying around.

[pippinwhitepaws]

well, actually, human remains left in the sun do not turn to dust. they may decompose into smaller particles, but...
human remains can, and are found all over the desert.
the breastworks cox described should still be in evidence.
and the most telling point in his letter is the fact that the 'experts' all point to the dutchmans mine being located below the peralta pit.

[Cubfan64]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand Cox's letter to the editor, the Dutchman's shaft was above the Peralta tunnel (not pit) according to him - I thought that's pretty much what I've read in other places as well.

Cox's letter is confusing to me in a number of ways.

First of all, he states that they reopened the shaft - I recalled reading Mr. Feldman's website regarding the site they got the permit for and it sounded to me like they were supposed to be one in the same shafts - did I misunderstand that? If that's the case, the photos we've seen here are NOT the same as what Cox was referring to.

Second of all, Cox doesn't seem to clearly indicate why he didn't develop the mine - he implies that he wasted $5000, but if he truly believed it was the LDM, $5000 would be a drop in the bucket compared to what you could get out of it (again, if you believe it really IS the LDM).

Thirdly, Cox totally loses me when he implies that since he now has possession of the two cache caves, there should be few if any more killings, no secret mining or black marketing of pillaged concentrates. I must be thick, because I don't quite understand the link between all those things. Is he implying that since he actually HAS POSSESSION of the LDM as well as Waltz's caches, everyone else will have to quit looking for it - thus no more killings, etc...?

He's very detailed in his description of where this site is, it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult to follow his directions. Randy - you say his directions are vague - is it just because he doesn't clearly specify canyons by name? I would agree there, but if any of the landmarks he mentions still exist to some extent, it doesn't seem as though it would be that terribly difficult to try to follow his footsteps (unless as I suggested early, many if not all of the landmarks have been destroyed).

Interesting letter and interesting observations by everyone so far.

At this point though, I think I may be more confused than ever in regards to this site

[pippinwhitepaws]

the cox letter seemed fairly straightforward to me. i believe anyone familiar with those mountains could find the site.

the area was declared a wilderness area in 1939 i believe...it was common knowledge the wilderness area was "special" and slated for wilderness protection...took some years to get everyone on board...(even now there are some people who believe their greed is greater than law.)

it seems cox declares the location and possession of the mine, human remains found...spanish materials found...stash found...in the Wilderness Area...
end of story.
laws an morals ment something to the miners and ranchers of then arizona.( yes we have outlaws).

i think cox drawing in the suspecious activity, murders, missing men, gold ore shuffing through the "black market"
1887 mining laws give the miner/mining company supreme rights to extract minerals, build infrastructure, and not pay for the mineral, while gaining millions.
...there should never have been a "lost mine" in the age of the miner...why didn't waltz file

[pippinwhitepaws]

oops..mispelling...i blame it on fat finger syndrom...

[djui5]

Randy - you say his directions are vague

Not really vague I guess after reading it again. It's descriptive. I just haven't ever gone in that way so it seems weird to me. One should be able to arrive at the site following his directions I guess. What do I know.

[zentull]

I would think that everyone needs to take a deeper look at the various letters and writings Cox left behind. That letter he posted to the editor is one of his more concise efforts.

I do not doubt that Cox found something important in his eyes no more than I would doubt the same of Chuck Crawford..........I do not believe it was the LDM in either case.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Not everyone held Ted Cox's stories in high regard. I have been told he was known to prevaricate.....now and again. On the other hand, I have heard good things about his brother.

Take care,

Joe

[walker12]

Two parts of the Cox directions sure struck me as highly supect.

"The crumbling abutments of two long-vanquished bridges are passed". Anybody seen any bridge remains or even a crossing where it would make sense to have built a bridge, let alone two of them?

"Then the canyon widens out to a brushy timbered valley". Small, brushy areas are indeed plentiful. But a "timbered valley", that seems an overly lush description for almost any area of the Supes let alone for an area on the west side.

[djui5]

"Then the canyon widens out to a brushy timbered valley". Small, brushy areas are indeed plentiful. But a "timbered valley", that seems an overly lush description for almost any area of the Supes let alone for an area on the west side.

This is on the East side. If you'd seen the area, you'd agree with that part Brushy is a severe understatement. Maybe it's gotten worse since Cox was there, but I'll be dammed if that isn't the most overly vegetated place in the entire Superstitions You don't walk between the trees, you walk over them, or crawl under them. Seriously.

The bridges struck me as odd too. Like I said though, I personally never went in from that side.

[azmula]

Two parts of the Cox directions sure struck me as highly supect.

"The crumbling abutments of two long-vanquished bridges are passed". Anybody seen any bridge remains or even a crossing where it would make sense to have built a bridge, let alone two of them?

"Then the canyon widens out to a brushy timbered valley". Small, brushy areas are indeed plentiful. But a "timbered valley", that seems an overly lush description for almost any area of the Supes let alone for an area on the west side.

Walker,

There are several areas in the mountains that meet your "crumbling" description, but I have only seen one that still meets your complete area description. There is still a lot of gold there also!!! Unless you open your interpretation of the basic clues as set forth you will never come close to it. Anywhere the Spanish mined in force they took time to build roads/trails for mules to carry the ore the reduction areas.

azmula

[pippinwhitepaws]

the area around iron mountain was subjected to a major wildfire in the mid 1960's...the overgrowth one sees now is a result of invasion species.

there were the remains of bridges" and ore chutes and cattle pens throughout the area prior to the fire.

[lazarus]

Anybody seen any bridge remains or even a crossing where it would make sense to have built a bridge, let alone two of them?

Yes.

Laz

[critter]

Uummmmm....yep! I do think I have seen that place!

Critter

[lazarus]

Critter,

Yep,
I believe you have.

Brad

[lazarus]

Azmula,

You are so right. It's all in the interpretation. Too many very clever researchers are overlooking the obvious.

Brad
(Laz)

[Mayhoon27]

i havent read or posted anything on this forum in a long time, mostly due to the social problems expressed by some (or specific) members and I remember 90% of the posts being about exposing some multi-accounters on here or slandering one another. It seems though that a lot of this has been resolved and i look forward to reading some other threads (this is the first and took me a looong time to get through).

There certainly are some compelling arguments both for and against this site being regarded as the ldm. It is certainly a lot to think about. All of the 'secret' info from some of you guys makes it even more engaging. I am merely a bystander, but i found the myriad of photos to be very intriguing, not just from an LDM standpoint, but from a historic and anthropological standpoint.

Does anyone have any indication on how old the site is? E.g. carbon samples from any organic materials such as wood posts or otherwise... I assume much or all of this type of evidence would have been destroyed if there was more than one mining operation, especially considering the carelessnes of the most recent excavation (all of that garbage is appauling)... but hey maybe in a few hundred years all of that garbage will be worth a lot of money and regarded as a piece of timeless american history.

as someone with limited to no experience on the LDM other than most of the standard facts, i have a few questions. Apologies if the questions are ignorant or the answers obvious.
Is it known if the peraltas used pit mining techniques?
Could this just be one of the peralta mines?
There is mention of numerous silver claims in the same general area, but what of gold claims?

I always found it interesting that a few hundred years ago people were able to pull vast amounts of gold with very limited technological resources compared to today. And how one man with limited experience came across a mine of such reported wealth, and yet the thousands of seekers since his death have found the mine elusive (debateable, i know). Not trying to discourage the hunt, just saying its funny how those things can work out.

[deadguy]

Thanks for the book recommendation. If it wasn't for this forum and thread I would not have known about this book. I picked it up last week. Interesting read. Thank you Joe.

[Joe Ribaudo]

DG,

Good to see you posting.

Glad you enjoyed the book. If you have not already attended, you should come to the next Rendezvous and meet Jack in person.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[cts49]

Being very new but having read more than a few books on this subject, I am very appreciative for all the information that has been given on this site. Mr. Ribaudo and Mr. Wright, thank you for the great photos. Having read so many posts by you two, I think you would be so interesting to meet sometime. About this mine, some on this forum keep saying "How could this mine be so hard to locate.", or something like that. But I thought that I had read that Waltz had hid the mine and boobie trapped it as well with deadly force. Later the Apaches were supposed to have filled in the mine and covered it so that it could not be seen. This would have made the mine pretty difficult to find. None of this is relevant to this find which looks to be very close to someone not so informed. to if not the LDM. I'm glad you folks have the time and energy to wade though the mountains of info available, and figure out which points the right way and which is there to mislead. Good hunting. I hope to join you sometime. Amazing how a desert area can look so much a jungle. Are you sure that some NVA didnt mine that thing?

[zentull]

The Apache story is that they filled in 4 mines on each side of the canyon as per Abe reid and others. One mine was so hard to get to they left it be....There are several Apache stories the vary on the theme and possibly were from other unrelated events.

The number of covered mines changes depending on the story teller, but those mines in question appear to be those on Black Top Mesa and Bluff Springs Mountain. It is doubtful any of those are the LDM. I believe 1/2 of them probably have been located, though there are a few that could still pay off if you could excavate without getting caught.

The hiding of the LDM appears mainly to me as part of the Holmes story. There are all kind of tales that get into that area pretty deeply. However, if Waltz hid the mine then it was long after Deering and the 2 soldiers if those mines are one and the same and even Herman Petrasch describes the approach from above and being able to see the workings below. So we have 2 earlier stories and one from the public domain being woven in to the framework. There is a popular belief in the Holmes story that plays much of this drama out in circa 1884-5 and that means Waltz hid the mine after these events.....doubtful I would think. Besides that you would think Waltz would have mentioned those known stories and their tie ins to Thomas and Petrasch? The Petraschs seemed to believe the Deering mine was possibly the LDM. The 2 soldiers mine was most likely a separate mine area. Waltz would have heard the story long before he died and it was a popular lost mine search in its own right. It was Jim Bark I believe who popularized the LDM/2 Soldiers mines as one and the same.

It's tough to keep it all in check, but even Bicknells directions should be somewhat suspect as I have heard that he had various people give him information besides Julia Thomas.

In the end the searchers themselves helped keep it lost by keeping the waters muddy by stirring it with their own sticks.

[Joe Ribaudo]

I recently had two gentlemen over for dinner, with one spending the weekend here. Both of them had ridden into this mine, around 1985, with the person who, I believe, eventually opened it up and worked it in 1997, 98 and 99. At that time, both of the caches had been cleaned out, and their friend was "dying" to open up the mine itself.

There is no doubt in my mind that they were being truthful, as I had heard one of their stories at an earlier date. Both matched, even though they had not seen or had contact with each other for many years.

One of the many clues that point to this being the location of the LDM is the view of Weaver's Needle through the "Gunsight" or saddle, from above the mine.

At the time of their visit, the mine was covered, just as it was written in the Holmes account.

Joe Ribaudo

[Ozarker]

Hello All:

What/who is the origin of the "gunsight" clue? Can anybody expound on it? Is it generally considered reliable? Thanks in advance.

Larry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Larry,

The picture of the drawing that was claimed to be done by Waltz, and came from Rhiney Petrasch, can be found on page 134 of Helen Corbin's: "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine And Jacob Waltz".

IMHO, it's as reliable as most clues to the location of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe