Adolph Ruth’s Directions to the Lost Dutchman Mine

[novice]

Randy,

This is the link for the Northcutt article if you have never seen it.

http://www.redlandsfortnightly.org/papers/duchmine.htm

It seems everyone claims to have been in contact with Erwin at one time or another. Peck, Magill, Crazy Jake, Barry Storm, Ely etc. Who knows what he shared?

I personally believe we are mixing an apple (Peck's note) and an orange (Bark's note) when we speak of the blood stained note or the note taken from Ruth's body. But that's what I believe today, who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Garry

[djui5]

Yes, you're probably right
Thanks for the link, not sure I've read that yet, but will read it.

[Cubfan64]

Ok - I tried to put a few letters and words together in comparison from the handwriting examples I've seen recently. This is by no means scientific in nature, nor is it obviously as complete as I would wish as there are at least a few different person's handwriting I would love to see included.

That said - take a look and gave me an idea of which ones are the closest matches.

I hope to be able to add to and modify this list as the days go by!

Paul

[don]

But Joe like everything else, it is based on an assumption that differs from the story passed down......

Dr Hrdlicka says it is a gunshot wound. The county says no. The county couldn't have been that unfamiliar with gunshot wounds to the head, it seemed to happen now and again. Yet everyone cries foul " He was murdered and it is a cover up". At this point 1/2 of Arizona is connected to the case if you believe everyones combined analysis.

Why would you leave the topo map, the directions and other things? Why .

to me zentulls the "conspiracy/gunshot/natural causes issue has to be cleared up first...without that the other issues are/might be meaningless. personally i believe ruth met his end by natural causes,and nothing ive read here,or in books ,or in newspaper articles or in the bark notes leads me to believe otherwise........"sensationalist" authors, reporters and "dutchman theorists" are the reason ruths adventures have become mysterious.....the truth is most likely anything but.
regards

[pippinwhitepaws]

why leave the maps with the body?
perhaps one of the maps was taken.
thats the story right?
while examining the 'brown paper ruth map' (whew), i notice a ghost on the screen...ok..too many hours at the terminal right?
too many hours in archives is the problem. i noticed that the brown map had been in extended contact with another sheet of writing material at some time.
the acid nature of the brown paper, combined with the unknown qualities of the ghost sheet has etched the ghost into the ruth map. this 'ghost map' appears to be a claim locator.
if you pull up the brown paper map...examine the top of the map...a series of geometric lines appear...the bottom half of the ghost map appears to be a legal description of a mine. i have not been able to clear up this portion of the image...but i did make a rough of the geometric's...
i have examined two copies of the brown map...both have the ghost.
i posted a portion of the ghost image on that other dutchman site. so have a go at it..maybe map 12 is not so lost after all...maybe e. ruth did see the lost map when he was with sorting maps with whomever...

but if this is the lost map, then why was it drawn up as a legal claim document? was ruth so sure of himself that he typed up the claim prior to willow springs? did ruth have a portable typewriter with him at willow springs?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Don,

"Dr Hrdlicka says it is a gunshot wound. The county says no. The county couldn't have been that unfamiliar with gunshot wounds to the head, it seemed to happen now and again. Yet everyone cries foul " He was murdered and it is a cover up". At this point 1/2 of Arizona is connected to the case if you believe everyones combined analysis."

Actually, as I understand it, the county coroner did not have the skull for his "autopsy". He made his decision based on verbal testimony and the skeletal remains. Things were done a little differently in those days.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

This was a message I received from Steve Creager:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: S.C.
To: Joe Ribaudo
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:41 am
Subject: Re: The Peralta Book
Joe,

I have not fallen off a horse. I have been around. I check the forum all the time. But really have not felt like I had anything significant to add - so I have not posted anything in a long time. I figured if I didn’t have anything to add of importance, why bother to post gibberish.

Everything is fine out here in Missouri. Except I have been working a lot. I have been turning in a lot of extra hours at work because we have been switching to a new software system and we are not yet over the learning curve. I was not able to get out to AZ this fall because of it. So, when things settle down in the next few months I’ll be thinking about coming out soon.

But to your big question: No one I know has ever seen that book except Gene Reynolds. I certainly haven’t and I know Peter hasn’t. Nor has Greg or any other major Dutch Hunter I know of.

I was in touch with Gene Reynolds late last summer. He alluded to these two people he knew had the book. He was awfully upset they disappeared. But, it seems he had some lead on tracking them down. But that probably fell through and that is why he is asking for help.

I live in Missouri and the Kansas City area is not too far away. I have tried a little to find that book myself – with no luck. Greg has suggested it was printed by a “vanity press” for strictly family distribution. Thus, it would be extremely difficult to find a copy – if only family members would have had it. I am puzzled why it would have been written in English. You’d think Spanish – considering who it should have been written for.

Gene is only taking a guess that it was published in KC. He only thinks that because Ruth lived in KC for a time. My guess is it could have been California – and Ruth came accross a copy somehow. Maybe even from Senor Gonzales’s widow.

I have not really changed my mind about Adolph Ruth – except in the sense he and Erwin knew what they were doing in California. I think Gene may be right in that they found something. But of course down-played it. It was probably played out. Gene said in his post he thinks he found what they found. He probably did.

Until I see the Peralta book (if anyone ever will), I withhold my comments about its significance. It could be very important. But it could be nothing.

For Gene’s sake, I hope it turns up. The book means a lot to him.

Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

I believe it is common knowledge among certain quarters of the Dutch Hunting community that Adolph Ruth made his first trip into the Superstitions around 1928. He was packed into the mountains by the Morse family. Cal Morse later introduced Adolph to Tex Barkley, and that is how Tex got involved in Ruth's final trip in 1931.

If that is true, the entire story, as we know it, has been fabricated. The haunting question is........Why? I am convinced, despite Ron Feldman's fictional account, that Tex had nothing to do with Ruth's death. Since I was not there, I could be wrong, but from what I have heard of Tex it is not something he would willingly get involved with.

The more I look into Ruth's story, the thicker the smokescreen gets. I can't help but think that the original reasons for the cover-up and silence, are long gone. The only thing that remains is omerta.......The code of silence. In this case, that promise of silence was written with the blood of Adolph Ruth.

It's a heavy burden to have carried for all these years. I don't envy those who have felt that weight.

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

The common analogy used is separating wheat from chaffe?

I have come to the conclusion it is more like cleaning horse stalls.......except for every wheelbarrow you haul out, someone dumps another before you get back.

And even if you get it cleaned out and all fresh, the smell clings to you as you leave.........

So it don't matter what you do in the end. Someones coming along and mixing more crap in as soon as you finish.

[Cubfan64]

I believe it is common knowledge among certain quarters of the Dutch Hunting community that Adolph Ruth made his first trip into the Superstitions around 1928. He was packed into the mountains by the Morse family. Cal Morse later introduced Adolph to Tex Barkley, and that is how Tex got involved in Ruth's final trip in 1931.

If that is true, the entire story, as we know it, has been fabricated. The haunting question is........Why? I am convinced, despite Ron Feldman's fictional account, that Tex had nothing to do with Ruth's death. Since I was not there, I could be wrong, but from what I have heard of Tex it is not something he would willingly get involved with.

The more I look into Ruth's story, the thicker the smokescreen gets. I can't help but think that the original reasons for the cover-up and silence, are long gone. The only thing that remains is omerta.......The code of silence. In this case, that promise of silence was written with the blood of Adolph Ruth.

It's a heavy burden to have carried for all these years. I don't envy those who have felt that weight.

Joe Ribaudo

Ok, I'll bite...

There've been some assertions that Adolph Ruth (and perhaps his son Earl) visited the Superstitions back in the 1926-1929 timeframe as you suggest. The FACTS of that trip (or trips?) are either lost to time, or only really known by some people.

If you take into account that the Morse family had a tie to claims and prospect areas in the Willow Spring area and that somehow Ruth became acquainted with the Morse family, it seems to make sense that Willow Spring and the surrounding area is where he may have visited even on his first trip.

I don't think I'd go as far as to say the entire story as it's been related is a fabrication, but the evidence definitely indicates that many things were covered up by at least some people.

I think Wayne is right in the respect that picking out the nuggets of truth gets harder and harder when more and more stories are added, but I'm positive the truth is out there somewhere and with enough determination and searching, it can be found.

I can't argue with folks for keeping silent about things because quite honestly I'm not in their shoes. I don't know what relationships they share with certain families and friends and I don't know what kind of promises have been made.

More and more information is coming out slowly regarding the full Adolph Ruth story. I honestly think someone without any ties or promises is going to be able to take the little bits and pieces that are being quietly placed as breadcrumbs along the path and connect them to the truth.

I remember when I first read Borego 13, there was a point during the interview with Stella Hawkins and her daughter-in-law where one of them mentioned that while in Arizona, someone introduced him to Tex Barkley. At the time I wouldn't have even considered that of any real importance - until of course I learned of the Morse connections with the Barkley's and Adolph Ruth himself. As little things like that keep popping up, the truth will eventually come out.

[zentull]

one of the things you will run across is that Tex was not just a resource center people went to, but an information gathering hub that controlled much of the range. I have seen plenty accounts where Dutch Hunters were pretty upset that information was leaked to Tex.

As much as you might want to think some went to Tex for help, some simply knew it was good practice not to try to get his suspicions up or upset him.

Of course the Dutch Hunters took advantage of any resource possible including the line cabins. There appear to be few who were not welcomed and no one was turned away in need it appears. It must have been an interesting time watching the scenarios play out in those days.

There is enough stuff that shows or backs up a lot of the story. What is intriguing to me is that almost every direct statement backs up the truth, it is the 2nd and 3rd hand accounts that are very suspect. I pointed out Storm mentioned the Morse connection as did the Newspapers and a few other articles. Its just no one was comprehending the obvious....

Having seen and heard more of the firsthand accounts as time goes by, I have begun to believe the truth is a bit more mundane than the legend.

Here is something I keep chewing on and can't understand regardless: If Ruths body was put on Black Top by design it was a very stupid move.....

That area and canyon has always been on and off a hotbed area of activity and it created more hype and prolonged the longevity of the story than anything else could have. That area has a more impressive who's who of Dutch Hunters than any other hands down. It began in the mid 1890s and continues. It simply dialed up interest more than distracted folks. If Ruths body had been found on Black Mesa or in Brush Corral basin or at Pinon camp it would have created far less of a story.

Have Ruth found within walking distance of Willow Springs completely diffuses the whole story......guy went out for a walk and died. Even being murdered in that area is less of a story.

Add in that if you take out McFadden, Adams and Barkley, little or nothing would have been done. Those 3 with Erwins hype and attention built the foundation that could not be forgotten.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Anyone ever wonder why there has never been a transcription of the Brownie Holmes interview.....at least, not that I know of. I never put much stock in the Holmes story, other than what he did on his own search, which might explain why I know so little about what's in the tape.

Brownie's account of his search is what convinced me that his dad did not have first hand information from Waltz.

Seems to me, there might be some interesting information, concerning Ruth, in that tape.

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Hi Wayne - your thoughts about where Ruth's body was found and why got me thinking about a number of things. Allow me to just randomly think aloud here...

1. You're correct that had Ruth been found dead within walking distance of Willow Spring, it would not have been a story as long as no foul play was involved - if he was indeed killed by someone, the first reaction of the perpetrator would probably be to move the body - that's generally just human nature not to leave the body near the scene of the crime.

2. Why did it take so long to find Ruth's remains? As others have mentioned in places, the search for him began fairly soon after his disappearance. If he had been killed and "disposed of" somewhere, why weren't there any signs of vultures or odors for dogs to follow?

3. On the other hand, if he was indeed murdered and moved, why move him to a location where his remains could even be found? Surely a "well placed rockslide" could have hidden his remains for much longer.

4. What if Ruth was found dead by someone due to natural causes? I can see the person searching his remains for anything useful, but I can't think of any reason to move his body unless you thought he was right near what he was searching for. In effect, move the body to somewhere where you know it would be found eventually, but away from where you want people snooping around.

5. Is it possible that someone came across him in the first day or two and convinced Ruth to come with him to see something - thus leading him by horse to where his body was eventually found?

6. Is there a chance that Ruth was "hidden" somewhere alive for awhile before killed? Didn't the appearance of the skull seem to indicate that perhaps he hadn't been dead for as long as he had been missing?

I need to find someplace quiet to just sit down and go over notes and try to piece all this together one of these days. Maybe I'll have a chance to go to Willow Spring in a couple weeks and be granted a vision of what really happened

[novice]

Wayne,

I liked your analogy of the horse stalls. I haven’t read all of the books but for me it kind of starts chronologically with Charles Clark, Dick Holmes, Oren Arnold, Barry Storm, Barney Barnard, Charles Higham, Sims Ely, Milton Rose, Bob Ward, etc. and it continues to this day. It seems everyone brings their share of manure to the stable. Most of us don’t haul it out, we just leave it there and pick through it, hoping to find something that glitters!

Paul,

I believe your question of. “why move him (Ruth) to a location where his remains could even be found?”, is on the money. That does not even get into the logistics of burying and moving a dead body and all of his belongs including topo map, hiking stick etc., and then scattering bones and personal items around to prepare a discovery site where he would be found. It's all incredulous to me. BUT, many will say, you can’t prove it didn’t happen that way and they are correct. I would just point out the reverse is also true.

Another item that I find troubling is the use of the term Willow Springs in 1931 as being one and the same as the Ruth camping site in 1931. Adolph certainly didn’t use that term and I don’t believe any of the newspapers of the day referred to Willow Springs. Lots of landmarks identified with the term “willow” and we know that the names of many landmarks were changed over time. I would like to see someone research when the name Willow Springs was first used in some document or story that indicated it was the same as the Boulder Creek Spring.

Of couse in today's nomenclature we know that Ruth camped at Willow Spring.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Gentlemen,

Those were some very good posts, but I have a problem with my friend Wayne's analogy. While it may be true, it brings nothing positive to the table. If you accept the notion that everything you are shoveling is manure, and that you will never be able dig your way out of it, it's time to find a new hobby.........or line of work, as the case may be.

I prefer to believe there are gold nuggets among the piles of manure and, if you are persistent in your search, you will eventually find each and every one of them. I am no longer looking for a mine or treasure trove in the Superstitions, but I am still looking for the historical gold that is buried in the manure.

Once you have killed a man, a different set of mental rules take over. I imagine if the death is murder, the thought process may become less than logical. If greed was your motivation and you believe the thing you covet is at, or very close, to the place where the killing took place, it seems a no-brainer that you will move the body away from that site.

What better place to move it, than to an area that has long been accepted as THE place to search for the LDM? That would obviously take the pressure off of the area you are trying to protect.....or work.

There are a number of Willow Springs in Arizona. I would question the one where Ruth camped as being the Morse spring. The ridge is easy to find, and not really all that hard to explore. Anyone who want's to look for the Morse claim, should have no trouble searching it out.
I have not searched all of the ridge, but I have spent some time up there. I also flew very.....very close and all around it in a helicopter. There is one old mine up there, that I know of.

Garry,

In 1886 P.C. Bicknell camped at Ruth's Willow Spring:

"The Phoenix Gazette printed a letter sent to the editor from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1886. It was signed by "Bick," and reads as follows:............" "Arizona: The Last Frontier" by, Joseph Miller.

I believe there is enough supporting evidence to indicate that Bicknell's Willow Spring was in West Boulder Canyon.

I say.......Keep digging.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

There is so much though that is not questioned. The rate of decomposition of a body in very dry conditions can make a difference. I have run across cow carcasses in the spring and found them still with flesh and tendon and odor in the fall. The correlation is different in some respects because of mass, but it still creates the possibility that Ruth was killed within days of his arrival.

The whole Willow canyon issue will never be resolved until someone provides actual evidence of his camp being there. Then I question that there is a photographic record of the entire story but only 2 photos of the "site". One is from a plane above the canyon that really determines nothing and the other is of the marker on a bush and it is on what appears to be a hill side and not indicative of the previously reported site.

The last person who purportedly saw Ruth kept his story private until his death. He was not involved in the search or prior activities at all. The material I have gathered concerning this indicates some very different things. while it has nothing to do with his death, it corroborates little of the newspaper accounts and is most intriguing. Even more so it wasn't revealed until more than 40-50 years later.......

I find it odd this account is discounted by so many and rather quickly, but it is a very nice nugget in a large pile of manure.

It is the primary reason I have any interest in the matter to begin with.

Paul and Garry,

Problem isn't always the amount of manure, but it gets spread around so much by folks. Used to get yelled at myself about making a bigger mess than was necessary.

[Cubfan64]

The last person who purportedly saw Ruth kept his story private until his death. He was not involved in the search or prior activities at all. The material I have gathered concerning this indicates some very different things. while it has nothing to do with his death, it corroborates little of the newspaper accounts and is most intriguing. Even more so it wasn't revealed until more than 40-50 years later.......

I find it odd this account is discounted by so many and rather quickly, but it is a very nice nugget in a large pile of manure.

Despite my better judgement, I can't pass this up

What information have you discovered are you comfortable sharing with us here?

I get the feeling from your quote above that at least some of what you know has already been discussed before - if it's on a forum, could you point me to any of it?

You're a bit of an enigma Zentull - and I mean that in the kindest possible sense You have the ability to leave me "wanting more" after reading your posts and I both love that and hate that (hehe). I sense that you have your own personal theories and ideas not only of what happened to Ruth, but also regarding the whole LDM saga, and I can't tell if it's something you really want to share or not?

How bout giving me another "nugget" to chew on before I come out there in a couple weeks!

The reminds me - I need to e-mail both you and Randy this weekend and touch base. I'm an idiot and didn't even realize I'll be hiking out there over the Easter holiday, so I once again want to express that while I'd love to meet up with one or both of you during my visit, I'm not counting on anything - if we get to hike that's great, if not then I have an excuse for coming back out again

Talk to you soon

[zentull]

Paul,

Tom Kollenborn revealed quite a number of years ago that Glen Ward, a friend of his fathers, had met Ruth in the Superstitions and was probably the last person to see him alive. Ward spent a couple of hours with Ruth shooting the breeze, but in very general terms and he knew nothing concerning Ruths intents or purpose or who he was. Afterwards I believe he was concerned that he would become part of a witch hunt and the secret was between a few select people including Toms Dad. I believe Tom didn't open up about the story and Wards diary concerning these events until everyone involved had passed away. Ward passed away in the early 40s I believe and the story was first mentioned in Kollenborns "Ride Through Time" in 1981. It may have been mentioned in an article Kollenborn wrote prior to that, but I have not run across it yet.

While it probably has no direct bearing on much of the story in a sense, there is more there than meets the eye in some ways. It gives us a possibility that Ruth was alive and well at a very specific time and place and his demeanor at that time. More importantly, it is a direct account we are given in a myriad of 2nd and 3rd hand accounts.

I believe that with the resources and first hand knowledge that Tom has it is probably one of the most neglected aspects of the entire Ruth saga.

Of course it is not the first time I have brought it up and each time it gets squashed or passed over.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

One wonders how Ruth managed to keep his information to himself when Glen Ward dropped in. We have been told that he showed everyone over the age of three what he had.

Another important aspect of the Ruth story, is that he did not expect to be left alone. Who was he expecting to join him in his search?

I was under the assumption that Tom Kollenborn gave everything he had to Greg Davis and the museum. If that's true, you only need to visit Greg's home to see it all........unless there is information that Greg is holding away from public view, for whatever reason.

I doubt there is much chance that anyone in this conversation will let your comments be "squashed or passed over." If your source for much of your information is Tom Kollenborn, it would be nice if you could persuade him to join this conversation.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

I would think Ruths demeanor would have been different when alone in the mountains. I think there is that old rule of thumb that those folks ask no direct questions, just chat away about nothing and keep their secrets to themselves. I can say first hand that there were folks who would speculate and tell fine tales about everyone inthe mountains, but not a word on what they were doing.

Someone started me on this research by mentioning a few things I found intriguing. It was not Greg or Tom though. just to end that speculation. I like more than anything checking out the validity of stuff and proving its authenticity to myself, first and foremost. I think I got Randy hooked too.

" no miner will find my mine" is a great statement. You would be looking for an area that has all appearances of the lack of mineralization. Instead, most folks dismiss spots because of that very thing or point to hotbeds of activity to show how close they are.

Same goes for the Ruth saga in my opinion. Sometimes the most obvious possibilities to me are left at the wayside in order to make room for far more exciting things.

I have asked 2 people involved in forensics for an opinion on the skull and both agreed that it could possibly be a gunshot wound. Neither felt it was conclusive though considering other possibilities because of the timeframe and condition. The answers I got showed that it is almost impossible to make a determination of the cause of death from this time with what we have available. There are too many variables.

I always believe it is wrong to forgot there is always another possibility.

So far no one has been able to prove where exactly Ruth was camped at the time of his death. Why would Ruth leave all his things behind? Why would those involved not do a better job at covering up his murder? How come all the other notes in pencil were unreadable except for the Veni Vidi Vici script? Why did they miss the journal entry during the initial search? When was his camp bagged and removed? Who removed it?

So we have a story that was placed under a rock during a time of intense speculation. It is obvious those who knew felt it could create difficult circumstances if spoken of. After the actual witness was gone, it still was kept quiet. That shows if anything, that from day one there were stories and speculation running rampant and these folks took it all very seriously.

I wish that I could manage to get someone like Tom to comment on some of this here. He is one of the few people who has very direct ties in all of this. I am unfortunately just a bug in the path of such things and doubt I am the voice of reason by any means.

I am just a guy with a computer and more theories and speculations.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

There are many things that point to Willow Spring as Ruth's camp. His description of the ride in, The P.C. Bicknell quote he had with him, the fact that Bicknell also camped at Willow Spring in 1886, Ruth's letter home, and the statements of everyone involved in the story.

If you can take all of those factors and place him somewhere else, other than Willow Spring, I would like to hear your reasoning. A great deal of effort was put into making people believe that Ruth came to Willow Spring by chance, rather than by design. The focus of his story was very effectively moved from Willow Spring to Black Top Mesa and Needle Canyon. IMHO, If you consider the possible motivations behind that effort, a lot of things drop into place.

"I have asked 2 people involved in forensics for an opinion on the skull and both agreed that it could possibly be a gunshot wound. Neither felt it was conclusive though considering other possibilities because of the timeframe and condition."

Could you tell us what evidence you presented to them......verbal and photographic? In other words, did they consider the condition of the entire skull, the distance it had to travel to reach the spot where it was found, the path that it had to take in order to reach Needle Canyon, the distance and terrain that Ruth had to hike to reach the spot where his remains were found, and finally, the comparison of the skeletal remains to the skull. I am referring to the fact that the skull had pieces of flesh still attached, while the bones were bleached and picked clean.

I can't help but feel you are correct about Tom Kollenborn. I have read a great deal about his history, and been told even more by those who know him personally. I have wanted to meet the man for many years. He grew up in the center of many of the legends we can only read about, and knew many of the players on a first name basis.

Nice posts by all.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

Joe,

I presented it as the photographs, the general area, temperatures, climate, etc and what I felt was descriptive concerning the condition of the skull.

They had no idea of the history other than the time between the disappearance of the person and discovery of the skull.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I wonder if they would have another opinion if they knew the rest of the details.

I believe the reason it is "inconclusive" is because it's always possible that someone may have taken a hammer and chisel to the skull and created the holes in the picture.

The rest of the story puts a little more meat on the bones....so to speak.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Is anyone else terribly bothered by the "local" authorities determining that Ruth died from natural causes seemingly without ever examining the skull?

If there was even the hint of a suggestion of a gunshot wound to the head, wouldn't the coroner and/or investigators need the skull to determine that?

I keep going back to some of the things hinted at earlier about the significance of the death certificate and I know there's something there - I just can't seem to be able to work it all out yet.

1. The death certificate was incomplete at best and slapped together in a hurry with no regard for proper procedure at worst.

2. There were certain standards that HAD to legally be met that weren't in regards to the death certificate. The penalties involved could have been significant - why didn't anyone get in trouble over these discrepencies?

3. The location of the death was noted as being in Maricopa county when the remains were actually found in Pinal county and everyone at the time knew that's were the remains were found - why?

4. Family relationships are listed as "unknown" - that's all but impossible since Erwin Ruth was a central figure for awhile in the search and numerous news agencies had written umpteen articles on Adolph and his family ties in Washington DC.

There are other things associated with the death certificate as well, but the above are the ones I recall off the top of my head.

What say we discuss all the possible angles involved regarding the death certificate? I'll just toss a few out there and see if anything sticks...

1. The death certificate we see is not the real death certificate
2. The people who signed off on the death certificate were coerced or payed off to do so
3. Maricopa sheriff's dept. wanted to be the ones responsible for investigating the death for some reason - Pinal didn't want to.
4. The death certificate was thrown together for insurance purposes in a rush.
5. The investigation had enough proof to say that Ruth actually died in Maricopa county - regardless of where his remains ended up

If Ruth was determined to have died in Maricopa County due to some facts from the investigation, and yet his remains ended up in Pinal county what does that imply? To me it means 1 of 2 things... Either the sheriff's dept. knew who moved the body and where they moved it from (thus knowing he actually died in Maricopa county), or they found the scene of his death in Maricopa county before they ever found his remains - they may not have known exactly how his body got to Pinal county, but they had to have a good reason for putting his death in Maricopa.

Since neither county really wanted to handle the case, why didn't Maricopa county say "his remains were found in Pinal county, you guys have to handle everything, we're washing our hands of it?" What incentive did Maricopa have for doing that other than a relationship with whoever may have been suspected of foul play (or at the very least tampering with the evidence - in this case Ruth's body)?

Once again - I'm mostly just thinking aloud, but suffice to say there has to be something here - I can feel it!!

[zentull]

So what you are saying is what makes the murder theory conclusive is not the skull, but the story behind the skull?

I would think a bullet hole is a bullet hole regardless?

I thought we were looking at the possibilities and depending on who tells the tale, the results could vary. If I include the Maricopa decision it taints it as well, but it is just as valid or more so than some of the "story" itself.

Point made was you can't rule out other possibilities. Even if I believe Ruth was killed, I would overlook things if I leave out the other possibilities.

The depression in the ground could have just as easily been made by Ruth falling over after he was shot. So what was it that had both Sheriffs departments and all other witness's change their mind? I do not know if it really changed Tex's mind, but he was a proponet of the murder theory from the start. I find no where afterwards that he changed his theory, just the news reports via Maricopa/Pinal sheriffs departments.

Another interesting point is did Tex ever see the skull? There is a good possibility all he ever saw were the photographs. Who actually saw the skull before it was sent off? Did some of these folks just go by the news accounts and Brownies word?

I did not include the theories that animals had possibly made off with the skull. I thought it best that it just be said the remains were found at a later date some distance from the skull. Did I want to give a map of the site, the route of the party and a description of the find with the photos? No, because they actually are confusing and contradictive. I felt the word for word description of the skull itself was all that was needed in that respect.

I was looking for an opinion based on the skull, not the story. They did not say it was not a bullet hole, just it would be inconclusive based on the photographs and information. the condition due to the climate could place the time of death in June, which did not surprise me, but always good to keep in mind. It may not qualify as the answer some want, but I was looking for an honest opinion outside the community.

I actually submitted the idea concerning some of the issues to the show "Mythbusters" around 10 months ago but never heard back. Maybe it will happen.