The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Why???

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Critter,

"I believe that no miner would find the mine because miners weren't alloed to operate in the area. In other words, the area in which the mine is found was withdrawn from eligibility for staking a claim under the Mining Law of 1872 and was therefore off limits to both mining and miners in Waltz's day."

I believe you are mistaken here.

As for the caliche....As I said, anything is possible. Remember there was only 2' of dirt over the top of the mine. As it was made to look like the surrounding terrain, I doubt he would have left it as a depression.

If there were a ravine above the mine which channeled water into the shaft, the first thing that would have been done would be to divert that flow.

There is no place in the legends, that I recall, which describes such a ravine.

Joe Ribaudo
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Joe,

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Critter never said there was a ravine above the mine. That doesn't make much sense. The ravine is below the mine. The 'north trending shaft' is cut into a pit on the side of the ledge above the ravine, and above the 'cross-cut tunnel'. The water comes from fissures in the rock formation, from only a few feet above the 'north trending shaft'.

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

My Mistake.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Sorry......My mistake.

No doubt you are correct about the water and the caliche.

"The 'north trending shaft' is cut into a pit on the side of the ledge above the ravine, and above the 'cross-cut tunnel'. The water comes from fissures in the rock formation, from only a few feet above the 'north trending shaft'."

Did you have a source for that information? It seems rather specific.

Joe Ribaudo
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Joe,

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

yes.
Yes, rather.

Laz
User avatar
critter
Part Timer
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Second star on the right and straight on till morning

Silly, silly, boy.

Post by critter »

Joe,

I believe that you believe that I'm mistaken. Would you care to elaborate or would you rather just reject new ideas outright?

You may wish to keep in mind that you would look rather silly if I was able to come up with a location that was withdrawn in Waltz's day and that fits the LDM timeline and lore that you claim to be such an expert about. Yes, rather silly indeed.

Cheery!

Critter

P.S. Thank you for bothering to quote an entire thought rather than breaking it into fragments. That helps with the communication.
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Rather

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Yes, rather.

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Being Foolish.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

critter,

I am open to "new ideas" and have never claimed to be an "expert" on any subject.

I have, on the other hand, been willing to share what I have learned in (very) limited research over the last 48-years. That willingness to share on a public forum has created wonderful exchanges, lifelong friends, a tremendous increase of my knowledge of history, as well as a furious barrage of vitriolic, spiteful personal attacks from some people.

Admittedly, I was unprepaired for that kind of response and handled it poorly. I have owned-up to that and repeatedly apologized to the Forum members. For some, that was not enough.

Saying "I believe you are mistaken" gives you the opportunity to present facts that back up your statement. I don't feel it is necessary to present opposing facts to buttress my doubts. While your statement started out with "a contrary opinion" and "I believe", the final portion left no room for ambiguity.

If the purpose of your post was to share some factual information that you have found, by all means please continue. If making me look foolish is part of that equation, by all means please continue. It won't be the first nor the last time that happens. :lol:

There were numerous mining claims in the Superstition range throughout the 1800s.

Joe Ribaudo
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Good Morning

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Good morning.
I seldom notice you up this early.

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Early....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Good morning.

It is unusual. There are times when pain creates an alarm clock that can't be ignored. As we age, that clock rings with increasing regularity. :)

Hard labor as a young man builds that clock.....one load at a time.

Joe Ribaudo
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Truth

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

ain't that the painful truth!

Laz
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

I never have seen a copy of the mining laws of 1872. The only thing I can think of off hand that would fit the time frame would be a legal land grant recognized by the United States government. Or perhaps an Indian reservation.

Both more than likely the wrong answer to the question.
What's the new idea you spoke of?
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

TC

Post by lazarus »

TC,

those were both darn good answers.

Laz
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Glad you liked them.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Markers....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

critter,

The James Addison Reavis fraud was the obvious answer, but anyone who has done any research into the history of Arizona knows that for any land inside the border of "The Peralta Land Grant" to be recognized by the Government, Reavis had to provide proof that it had been surveyed by the Spanish Land Court.

I believe that is why there are so many claims that were honored in the 1800s in Arizona, including the Superstition Mountains. They were by no means "removed" which is well documented.

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Looking Silly......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

critter,

I should have quallified my last post. I am at work and don't have my library at hand. That means I am going on, mostly, memory. :?

If you should come back and make me "look silly", please keep in mind that I have one hand tied behind my back.....so to speak. :lol:

I would need to check the facts, but I don't believe Reavis ever received official government validation or even temporary title to any Arizona land as part of his "Peralta Land Grant".

If you have something "new", I would love to see it.

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Two Arguments....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

critter,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I believe that no miner would find the mine because miners weren't alloed to operate in the area. In other words, the area in which the mine is found was withdrawn from eligibility for staking a claim under the Mining Law of 1872 and was therefore off limits to both mining and miners in Waltz's day."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that you believe that I'm mistaken. Would you care to elaborate or would you rather just reject new ideas outright?

You may wish to keep in mind that you would look rather silly if I was able to come up with a location that was withdrawn in Waltz's day and that fits the LDM timeline and lore that you claim to be such an expert about. Yes, rather silly indeed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After taking another look at the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Mining Law of 1872, I could find nothing that would apply to the above statements.

On the other hand, if you are claiming the LDM is outside the areas generally accepted as the location of Jake's mine......anything is possible.

It will be interesting to see what you came up with. There is, of course, one other possibility that has not been mentioned. 8O

Joe Ribaudo
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

for over a hundred years, literally thousands of hikers and treasure seekers have ventured into the Superstition mountains in search of the mine, all to no avail. Expert and novice alike have all come back empty handed. How can this be? If the mine were there, one would think it should have been found by now.

If indeed, it were there.

Perhaps a fresh look is in order. Rather than repeat past failures, one might benefit from sitting down with the maps and what-not and reconsider the evidence.

Lets start with the source. Did Jake says his mine was located in the Superstition mountains? No he did not.

In fact, on Joe’s map, the William B. Hartley Map From 1865, the range isn’t even listed as Superstition mountain yet..

Okay…

next let’s discuss the Julia Thomas map. Jake stated it took him two and a half days to travel from his house on 16th street to the mine. According to the Julia Thomas map, Jake would travel eastward in a relatively straight line. Upon reaching ‘Dos Buttes’ Jake would hop down into the wash and travel northward. Does traveling north suggest he was headed toward Superstition mountain? No, it does not.

So where then, does the Julia Thomas map lead? To the Salt River Mountains, the very range Jake claimed the mine was in.

Kirk to Enterprise!

Laz
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Joe,

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

and yes...
I can indeed read the Stone Maps. I know what they say and where they lead. They contain a few surprises.

I feel kinda bad for the guy that wrote the Arizona Highways article, but without the ability to read the maps, one can only guess. I'm sure he did what he could with the evidence he had.


Laz
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

The Salt River Mountains........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

"So where then, does the Julia Thomas map lead? To the Salt River Mountains, the very range Jake claimed the mine was in."

Really! The Salt River Mountains? Well that's certainly "new". :? Tell me more.

Joe Ribaudo
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Lazarus,

You need to take a look at the map in Tom Glovers book.
Page 142.
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Joe,

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Turn to page 141 of Glovers book, 'the Golden Dream'.

"Sie liegt uber de Salz Fluss bergen", which translates to "over in the Salt River Mountains."

The Julia Thomas map does indeed point to the Salt River mountains. Now it is your turn. See if you can locate the buttes, using the map and my clues.
Amazingly, the 'board house' is still there.

Good luck.

Laz
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Post by lazarus »

TC,

yes, I am aware of that map. Look closely. The map does not refer to Superstition mountain by two different names...

Notice the curve of the words and their location. The 'S' on the word 'Salt' appears very close to the 'L' end the words 'Mount McDowell.

Those are two different ranges with two separate names.
Common mistake.


Laz
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

TC

Post by lazarus »

TC

The range on the south side of Apache Trail is the Supes. The range on the north side of the road are the Salt River Mountains.

Laz
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

TC

Post by lazarus »

TC,

however,
if your point was that the range was being listed as the Superstitions by 1865,
you are correct.

Are you thinking he didn't know the difference between the two ranges?

I most certainly think he did.

Laz
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Lazarus,

My point is that a large portion of the Salt River Mountains on the 1875
map is now within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area.
I agree with you that everything west and north of the Apache Trail are not.

Ludwig G. Rosecrans (Doc ) wrote a pamplet called Spanish Gold
and The Lost Dutchman. He felt the mine is located in the Government Well area on the side of the Apache Trail that you speak of.
You may wish to look for his writings.

Terry
Post Reply