P.C. Bicknell

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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P.C. Bicknell

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Most Dutch Hunters, that I know, associate the P.C. Bicknell article with Julia Thomas. That includes myself of course. 8O

The article, written in 1895, included the directions that led Adolph Ruth to Willow Spring. It's quite possible that those directions did not originate with Julia, and that "Bick" made them up himself.

"Bick" was quite familiar with the Superstitions long before Waltz died. In 1886, "Bick" penned a letter to the editor of The Phoenix Gazette which was printed in the paper. He wrote the letter from his camp at Willow Spring. 8O

His fertile imagination may have been the catalyst for many of our well accepted maps, stories and legends. That would include the basis on which the Stone Maps were created.

Offshoots of that story would include the Harry LaFrance and Bob Brady caves of gold bars. It would also include the Frank Fish Peralta Map and all of the stories that surround Black Top Mesa. I believe Gene would also say it drags Glenn Magill's area into the mix as well.

Anyway......it's something to think about as you continue your own searches.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

Odd though that after the inheritance he continued his travelling and adventures, but seemed to leave the LDM at the wayside?

It is obvious now Bicknell took a story and ran with it. He seems to have fit the "Barry Storm" mold a bit as well. His clues are as tainted as any. If he was searching for the mine why would he tell everyone the clues?
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1895 Article

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

Are you refering to the August 24,1895 article from the Phoenix
Saturday Evening Review?

Terry
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1895 Article

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

Are you refering to the August 24,1895 article from the Phoenix
Saturday Evening Review?

Terry
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Joseph Miller

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods. :)

Like many of my "facts", this one comes from a book on the history of Arizona.

Joseph Miller used "contempory newspaper stories of events as they were reported at the time" as sources for his books. This one comes from Arizona: "The Last Frontier".

My copy of the book is signed to: Mrs. Georgia (Hiler) Hays. She was the Niece of John Horton Slaughter. Anyone familiar with the history of Arizona knows about Sheriff/Cattleman, John Slaughter.

Unless a mistake was made, [The Phoenix Gazette printed a letter sent to the editor from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1886. It was signed by "Bick," and reads as follows:]

No time to print the letter, but I assume it was printed in 1886. It's possible you are correct, but when it was printed and by which paper, is inmaterial as long as the letter was written in 1886.

Take care,

Joe
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Depression of 1893

Post by Thomas Glover »

Bicknell’s articles concerning the Lost Dutchman were written between 1894 and 1895. As Joe has noted Bicknell knew the Superstitions years before Waltz’s death. His article “Superstition Mountains, Old Myths and Legends Dispelled” appeared in the Arizona Daily Gazette August 10th 1886. Bicknell’s articles on the mine started in 1894 and grew and grew not only in length and detail, but also in coverage from local Arizona papers to national newspapers by 1895. Why this growth that may have secured the Lost Dutchman’s fame? Even if “Bick” was interested, why were the newspapers interested, especially ones in Kansas City or San Francisco?

In my book The Golden Dream I hypothesized that it was due to timing. The timing of Waltz’s death and revelations coupled with his physical evidence (his gold) on the one hand and the discovery of the rich Goldfield deposits coupled with remains of lost Mexican mines and camps on the other. Plus the reports of Waltz’s story fit the 1890s mindset of likely wealthy precious metal deposits in the central and western Superstitions since the area lay between the Pioneer District with the Silver King and the Randolph District to the east, and the new incredibly rich Goldfield District to the west.

I still believe that timing was everything. After all there were older and/or more famous lost mines of the time, mines like the Lost Adams, the Lost Cement or the Lost Doc Thorne. But these tales had all been around for sometime, it seems to me that none of them had the timing of the Dutchman, none of them burst on the scene and at just the right time. I now believe that I overlooked a significant factor in the timing, which helped launch of the Lost Dutchman legend across the country, something that links the launch of the legend with the legend of Adolph Ruth—a national Depression. Many things fueled Ruth’s legend, but one of the biggest was the Depression of the 1930s. Depressions fuel treasure tales. The bigger the Depression the more effect such tales seem to have, and the more people want to read about them.

Up until the Depression of the 1930s the worst Depression in the history of the United States was the Depression of 1893. From essentially 1893 until circa 1897/'98 the United States suffered from the worst Depression in its history up until that time. The following bits are from David O. Whitten’s article (Auburn University, http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whitten.panic.1893):
* The Depression of 1893 was one of the worst in American history with the unemployment rate exceeding ten percent for half a decade.
* The Depression of 1893 can be seen as a watershed event in American history.
* … that real GNP fell about 4% from 1892 to 1893 and another 6% from 1893 to 1894. By 1895 the economy had grown past its earlier peak, but GDP fell about 2.5% from 1895 to 1896. During this period population grew at about 2% per year, so real GNP per person didn't surpass its 1892 level until 1899.
* Immigration, which had averaged over 500,000 people per year in the 1880s and which would surpass one million people per year in the first decade of the 1900s, averaged only 270,000 from 1894 to 1898.

Whitten’s article is, I admit, a bit dry, but the point is made: Things were bad in the mid-1890s, starting in 1894. It is in 1894 that Bicknell’s articles started to take off. Goldfield was in its heyday, articles had started to appear in the local Arizona papers about a few searches for the mine, Waltz’s stories seemed to fit the local “facts: location, and lost Mexican mines and camps in the Superstitions (remember that in the 1890s the Goldfield Mts. and area were referred to as the Superstitions in the local newspapers), and then the Depression of 1893 hits at just the right time. Bicknell sees the opportunity and rides the wave, so to speak, spreading the story farther and farther a field as the Depression sets in.

Bicknell was only 52 when he died (born 1852, died 1904). With him went many secrets: with whom did talk, from where did all of his information come, what he knew personally about the mountains and Waltz and the other early players in the drama, such as Julia, Rhinhart, William Edwards, Bark, George Roberts, and who knows whom else. Sadly it seems Bicknell’s papers and such were stored all those years ago waiting for a next of kin to claim them, but they never seem to have been claimed and now they are probably lost to time.

Respectfully,

Thomas
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History

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thomas,

With 13,883 posts on this site, it is rare that any new information comes to light. Most of the posts here, and elsewhere, are simple rehashing of topics that have already been well covered.

The amount of history contained in the Forum, would fill volumes if put into book form. While the history remains a constant, the insight into that history brings fresh conclusions as to what may actually have taken place.

Your post is a perfect example. Some, not all, :) will look at the LDM legend from a new direction.

Did a series of facts, fiction and timing create the legend of Jacob Waltz? That seems an interesting prospect to explore.

Very nice post. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Anyone who has bothered would agree with the papers printing any and everything concerning mining at that time. The Goldfield strike was huge news and many papers carried columns devoted to the gossip of the camps and related explorations. Up until the turn of the century it was common locally that there would be mention of the various comings and goings of most of the hopeful prospecting parties. By 1900 quite a few people had been on intimate terms with Jacob Waltz. By 1894 Julia was the primary source for LDM information, Rhiney was off and moving around, Herman and Gottfried however remained in the Phoenix area for most of their lives.

Adolph Ruth was the begining of a another sustained interest I believe. Over that period of time there was the Oren Arnold serial which was published nationwide and Barry Storms books and articles that periodically popped up. You can almost book end that era with Sim Elys book.
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Bicknell Letter

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

Nice up here. How's the weather your way.

We must be talking about 2 different articles if your letter was written
in 1886.
Terry
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.
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HOT....HOT......HOT

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

Well, we are right next to HELL :twisted: here, so it's usually toasty. :lol:

If you have a copy of your article, it would be nice if you could post it here, or send me a copy. I imagine a number of people would find it of interest.

I will post the rest of "Bick's" letter.

Thanks for the reply.

Take care,

Joe
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Saturday Evenig Review Article

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

Sorry to hear about the problem with Hell. This is actually our warmest time of the year. It will cool off real nice when the monsoon starts.

I really don't know enough about computers to post the article. Retired Truck Driver remember?
But I can tell you where you can find it. Page 72 " The Killer Mountains "
by Curt Gentry.

Will try to make the Rendevous in October but it will depend on my health at that time. Fun growing older isn't it!

Terry
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Zentell,

Yes the papers did report on the mining activity, perhaps not anything and everything, but not far off that. However, and I believe that it is a big however, what papers printed tended to be about the mines in their area. They carried mining news about other areas true, but these stories seem to me to be often abbreviated versions of what the local papers printed. Even more rare seem to be stories about lost mines, especially ones far removed geographically—or in time.

To check this idea I just did a quick check on what I believe are three of the most famous lost mine stories: Lost Doc Thorne, Lost Cement, Lost Adams Diggings. To do this I used Probert’s book Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the West. True not a definitive reference as new material has come to light since Tom wrote it, but it is still considered a standard reference. For all three a similar pattern emerged. First, no stories listed for the time close to the event, e.g., for the Doc Thorne Mine the earliest stories listed are in the 1890s. Second, I did not find any 19th Century stories listed “out of the area”, i.e., the southwest or west. Take the Lost Adams Diggings, a series of stories appeared in the 1890s, all in Arizona—none even in California in the 1800s. When there were earlier reports it was about a current event, the report on a prospecting party or expedition to find the mine, such as that of Banta or the Miner expedition. But, these reports are not about the lost mine itself.

I also checked the Lost Peg Leg, and it comes the closest to the Dutchman, but still it seems to me not that close. The earliest story listed is 1858 in the San Francisco Daily Alta California. But, that story is about Peg Leg's life and his lost gold is just part of that. There are other early articles: 1866, again about his life; 1886, about the "mine"; 1892, about the "mine". But none of these about the mine were until decades after the event and none out of California.

So for me the question is not were stories about mining and mines carried in the local papers, but why was a story about a lost mine carried out of the area as a feature article? And why did the story grow almost exponentially when it did. I do not find this true of the other “biggies”. But, the Dutchman story did do that, and it made it as far east as Kansas City—and that is way out of the area.

Just my take on things, but like peeling an onion we have not reached the center of it yet.

Respectfully,

Thomas
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Back To Bicknell......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Getting back to Bicknell, here is part of an interesting article written in the Mesa Free Press, Nov. 9, 1894:

"A Curious Find".

"P.C. Bicknell is back from an extended trip into the Superstition mountains, where he went to look up "the Old Doc Thorn mine," on a clue he had himself found. The clue consisted in a cliff dwelling of the true ancient era, perched high up on the side of a canyon in the Superstitions, about ten miles east of Weaver Needle. The dwelling was seemingly as it had been abandoned by its occupants of several thousand years ago, being in a notable state of preservation.
But, outside of its antiquarian interests, in one of the rooms were found articles that would deeply excite the curiosity of any prospector. One was a prospector's pick, the other a short and small spade, evidently used in smelting, though its handle was missing. The main peculiarity of the odd looking tool, however, lay in the fact that upon its blade were patches of silver stuck to its rusty face, much as solder splashes attach to tin. Now, there is no silver in that region, so far as mdern miners have been able to find. The nearest white metal is over at the silver King, fully thirty miles away. The spade evidently was used for the purpose of skiming off the dross from the cast metal in a silver smelting furnace of many years ago and had but recently been used for this purpose when abandoned in the cave.
Nothing was found that would indicate who the ancient refiner was, and in a close search of the surrounding country not a trace of mineral could be found in a radius of at least three miles. In the midst of a highly mineralized region, this neighborhood appears to be absolutely void of a formation in which silver or gold would be likely to be found.
Yet it is in this neighborhood, so Bicknell declares, that the Thorne mine was found three decades ago.........."

This information, along with many other documents, was sent to me by Steve Creager.

Seems like an interesting story to me.

First of all, the "ten miles east of Weaver Needle" put Bicknell smack dab in the middle of around 25 claims. I believe they are all silver, but could be wrong. Those claims are on a map from 1882.
My thanks to Jack San Felice.

What's also interesting, is the fact that the Doc Thorn Mine has been tied to the LDM by some folks. Everything in this legend just keeps coming full circle.

This story really conjures-up a good many more interesting facts, but I will leave the rest for someone else to write about.

Anyway.....just something else to chew on.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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McKee

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

The article you mentioned was about Robert McKee. I don't believe Bicknell was mentioned or had any part in writing it.

Some of the information in the article was said "apparently" to have come from Julia Thomas. It may just as well have come from Bicknell. I have not seen the article, that I can remember, :? but it would be interesting to see who the author was.

Take care,

Joe
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Article

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,
Your are correct. No name given. The time frame is correct but probably no way of knowing.

Terry
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Timing????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thomas,

Your original post does pose some interesting questions about the LDM legend.

In addition to what you have mentioned, I would add that few other "lost mine" stories had as much "meat" as the LDM story. There were people, still living, who knew and swore to the richness of the ore.

The story involved Spanish/Mexican, German, Apache, African American, local ranchers, miners........etc. There was something that everyone could relate to.

At the end of the trail......"The richest gold mine in the world."

It had a lot going for it. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Post by the blindbowman »

Note from admin: the blindbowan's posting privilege has been removed for placing this post in the wrong forum.

joe, randy

the man that threadend me and my family is in jail and will not be getting out right away i did not find it funny or a joke .. i was told to say what i said
i did what i was told to do by a law enforcement officer , i did not have a chioce .i can not explan my action at this time you and me may agree on one thing , haveing found the LDM dose not mean you have enough evidence to prove it.. my finding the LDM in 1979 is part of history and is made fact ..

the only diffrence between the 1891 dutchman sighting , the 1959 sighting and my 1979 sighting is i am the only one left alive out of the 3 of us ...
yes i have problems but i have learned more from you two guys then most dutch hunters while playing the game IMHO you must agree we all belong LOL
i know i was just saying what them lawdaugs were tellen me but iwas framed i tell ya framed....

im autistic artistic savante with chemical dependencies LOL!
i became hooked while in luny bin!

i love a good game and you both were best players IMHO
i really mis talkin with the both of you and it hurst just hurtz!

randy please call me we must talk again what you told me to do to your friend joe isn't working LOL dose it matter to you anymore? you told me what to say and now that we have ended you don't tell joe the truth

LOL!
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Post by zentull »

I think that most stories need some drama. In the LDM case we have Julia Thomas who possibly was a dramatic storyteller. Rhiney also adds a bit of mystery and the whole Holmes saga is an eternally unresolved question. I believe if Bark and Ely hadn't pushed along after 1900 and Tex hadn't bought the Quarter Circle U, the LDM would have been a story with little substance. Every 10 years or so the legend got a boost and a spike in popularity. Ruth and Storm were good spikes in the 30's. The storytellers such as Storm, Ely and Gentry made a national impact and Oren Arnold, Tex and Brownie spun yarns that had more local flavor.

So many lost mines around the area and this one had real people (unlike some of the various soldier tales) and dated events.

Add in the color of Crazy Jake, Doc Rosencrans, Al Morrow, Ed Piper, Celeste Jones and Louis Ruiz and it will also continue. A good story, needs great characters.

If Rhiney hadn't got fed up and confided in Bark before his shortlived retirement, it is doubtful it would of run the same course. I believe the competition and feuds sustain the legacy, more than damage it.

None of tales of the Estrellas hold the same interest as the LDM, even though there are connections.
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Meat.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

All of those "characters" gave everyone something that was tangible ....and personal. Many of us knew, or knew someone who knew, many of those pepole.

When a story is only "once removed", it carries an air of authenticity, even though it may be a complete fabrication. I know old Bob, and he would not lie to me. :)

Bicknell wrote with some authority, as he was on the ground, not only, early, but before the fact as well. Bicknell was in the Superstitions before the legend was even born. He may even have been its daddy....
so to speak. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Waltz was the Grand Daddy of it all. He was a real person who actually interacted with a number of people. Waltz by being a bit of a recluse was a great story book character. Everyone knew a little, but there was easily plenty of area you could make up and no one could contradict you....with one exception and he was gone. His timing in it all was great. The flood just before going to the mine is the stuff that is just amazing.

Most of Waltzs true contemporaries were dead and that made it easier. Very easy to tell the truth that my Daddy knew Waltz and told me such and such, because both parties to the conversation are dead.

Bicknell just wrote an article that was of casual interest. Bark had already been there and done that, it was the first national recognition of a local story though.

I believe if there was never a strike at GoldField, the legend would have been a quiet and private search by a few people. Goldfield really set things in motion. Waltz had been alive just years before and then Goldfield proved something to everyone.......there was gold out there.
Julia was still alive as were a lot of people who made some claims of knowing the story......they muddied the waters and spread lies, but kept it alive.

Silverlock and Malm also sustained that interest.

If Adolph Ruth had not died there would likely be a good chance that Storm and Ely's books would not done as well. By the sixties we knew how to promote the LDM and for a time it was big business.
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Moneymaker....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Believe you are on the mark there, but....."By the sixties we knew how to promote the LDM and for a time it was big business."

Can't imagine that the LDM legend doesn't generate more revenue today than ever before. The market for all things Dutchman is worldwide and has been for many years. Someone recently paid $200 for the Jim Hatt/Clay Worst booklet. :lol:

One of the major reasons the mine will never be found, is because of that revenue.

The pictures of ore that have been posted recently, were (probably) never touched by Kochera. As a guess, some of the pieces could very well have come from the LDM.

I should think that Bicknell had a pretty good nose for sniffing out the Waltz mine. How could he have missed it.......It may have been covered over, as described by Brownie Holmes. In the midst of thick brush that was almost impossible to work your way through.......

Find a Spanish pit style mine in that kind of place......picked clean of all minerals, and you might wonder......could it be? Who could get that ore out of the Superstitions without detection. It would require many, many trips.....and need to be well worth the risk.

Just thinking out loud. :lol:

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Look at that era though with the Zoo, The Mining camp fine dining experience, Apache Land, Hiking, a U Totem every 20 feet and the Dons club event was huge. The area was still open to mining and you had the Piper/Jones feud and Magill bookending it all. Add in the tragedy to Al Morrow and the succes of "Killer Mountains" and Allens book. Not to mention Marlowe, Burbridge, Conatser, Lee, Blair and others fit at one end or the other. Preceded by Barnard and Arnold stories as well as Storms reprints.

The Wilderness area saved the mountains, but killed a part of it as well.

History is easier to rewrite after the ruins have been eliminated.
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Where?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

For those who may not know.... "about ten miles east of Weaver Needle" puts you right on top of the Silver Chief Mine. Anyone else find that area of interest? Kinda close to the Feldman "Treasure Trove" dig? 8O

I believe Ron's a big fan of the Doc Thorn legend.

Joe
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Post by zentull »

As far as the Silver Chief and others located nearby, a well known Dutch Hunter referenced the 2 locations ( White Mountain and Iron Mountain).

Who had those claims in that area before?

Don't disappoint me here Joe..............
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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Best I can do.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Not home, but believe the claim documents are for around 1919, and are for Woodbury/Abbey Hatch.

Good luck,

Joe
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