new blood needed?
new blood needed?
It seems ,unfortunately,this forum had died a death of late,probabley hneeds an influx of newcomers i guess to bring their ideas into the mix.I wish i could add something to stimulate debate,but im afraid most things have been covered and to just go over the same ground again becomes dreary and dull. Im not suggesting we go back to the abusive nonsense that was so prevalent previously,but at least then there was passion present......maybe thats what "brought them in" ..who knows? one might be tempted to say "come back peter.all is forgiven" maybe not...sigh
Don update your email address
Don,
It seems that posting tends to slow down during the summer time due to many reasons. Many of us have to deal with personal issues which require a great deal of time which negates posting. Then there are a few us that are just sick of negative attacks by individuals who for what ever reason have a need to verbally attack, attempt to put down others, always want to appear to know more than others, challenge every creative thread under the guise of superior knowledge, and they always have to have the last post. I would say they have left the barn but they are just on a different site doing their same old thing. I personally will not bandy words with them because they lack the depth of communication skills necessary for a constructive dialog. If you wish to post new threads there is only one site left that is protected from this type of poster.
azmula
It seems that posting tends to slow down during the summer time due to many reasons. Many of us have to deal with personal issues which require a great deal of time which negates posting. Then there are a few us that are just sick of negative attacks by individuals who for what ever reason have a need to verbally attack, attempt to put down others, always want to appear to know more than others, challenge every creative thread under the guise of superior knowledge, and they always have to have the last post. I would say they have left the barn but they are just on a different site doing their same old thing. I personally will not bandy words with them because they lack the depth of communication skills necessary for a constructive dialog. If you wish to post new threads there is only one site left that is protected from this type of poster.
azmula
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Joe Ribaudo
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Facts
Don and Azmula,
The facts are here for everyone to read.....except for the posts that have been deleted.
When the attacks you speak of got totally out of hand, a moderated forum was created by Jesse. It did not solve the problem, because those who complained the most were in the process of destroying this Forum and creating their own "moderated" forum.....elsewhere.
My posts to you, Azmula, are still here for everyone to read. They were in response to your request for a critique of what you had written. I only asked for sources. Your response should have been to decline to provide them. Instead you went ballistic.
"I personally will not bandy words with them because they lack the depth of communication skills necessary for a constructive dialog. If you wish to post new threads there is only one site left that is protected from this type of poster."
It's interesting that the only reason you have returned is to insult someone else's intelligence....and to advertise Peter's site. It's doing fine and you should really stay over there with the rest of the head nodders.
I have not left this site.
Your post, as well as this one, will probably be removed by the management. I will copy both to the proper place.
Once again, anyone wishing to know the truth could look back through the old posts.......except they were deleted by the offending parties. The reasons for that should be obvious to anyone......even those who "lack the depth of communication skills necessary for a constructive dialog".
Just how "constructive" was your post? Obviously not constructive enough to have the pride to put your name to it.
Joe Ribaudo
The facts are here for everyone to read.....except for the posts that have been deleted.
When the attacks you speak of got totally out of hand, a moderated forum was created by Jesse. It did not solve the problem, because those who complained the most were in the process of destroying this Forum and creating their own "moderated" forum.....elsewhere.
My posts to you, Azmula, are still here for everyone to read. They were in response to your request for a critique of what you had written. I only asked for sources. Your response should have been to decline to provide them. Instead you went ballistic.
"I personally will not bandy words with them because they lack the depth of communication skills necessary for a constructive dialog. If you wish to post new threads there is only one site left that is protected from this type of poster."
It's interesting that the only reason you have returned is to insult someone else's intelligence....and to advertise Peter's site. It's doing fine and you should really stay over there with the rest of the head nodders.
I have not left this site.
Your post, as well as this one, will probably be removed by the management. I will copy both to the proper place.
Once again, anyone wishing to know the truth could look back through the old posts.......except they were deleted by the offending parties. The reasons for that should be obvious to anyone......even those who "lack the depth of communication skills necessary for a constructive dialog".
Just how "constructive" was your post? Obviously not constructive enough to have the pride to put your name to it.
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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TRUE
Randy,
What you say is, of course, true....which is why I will no longer reply to personal attacks, here or from the other site.
Peter and Azmula were welcome at both of the first two events. Peter chose to turn last year into a bit of a dog fight. I offered to shake his hand, in the spirit of the Rendezvous. He chose to bring the fight there, not me.
It's interesting that as soon as the talk turned to this years Rendezvous, the attacks were renewed on this site. To catagorize it as anything else.....just a few innocent comments, is ridiculous.
As you have requested, I will "bite my tongue".
Take care,
Joe
What you say is, of course, true....which is why I will no longer reply to personal attacks, here or from the other site.
Peter and Azmula were welcome at both of the first two events. Peter chose to turn last year into a bit of a dog fight. I offered to shake his hand, in the spirit of the Rendezvous. He chose to bring the fight there, not me.
It's interesting that as soon as the talk turned to this years Rendezvous, the attacks were renewed on this site. To catagorize it as anything else.....just a few innocent comments, is ridiculous.
As you have requested, I will "bite my tongue".
Take care,
Joe
Don,
2 new books the past year and nothing really as far as discussion over them. We had both Jim Wilson and Thomas Glover posting recently and still across the net there is nothing much to really note. Problem is as soon as people disagree it somehow turns to feuds and worse. Too many experts and too few apprentices really. There is little that would entice me to get involved if I was a newbie. The whole thing is so difficult to wrap ones hands around, it is not for the impatient.
This forum is unique and it could have eventually made most of the books on the subject obsolete. Younger folks are more for action and Old men like to be mysterious and keep secrets. A few like Randy and myself fit in between the 2. Of course the forum helped us to learn and make our own judgement calls.
More than the lack of input and freshness is the division of Dutch Hunters that seems to be the rule over more than a century.
That is something that will never get reconciled. We are looking at something where the success rate is awful and most of the time the experts were wrong. The LDM is a history of errors, lies and deceipt. The forum could have moved us beyond that point, but I think it is not something that can entirely start anew. I think we lost a piece of the whole and now it is just lost.
The arguments and disagreements were part of the sucess. But they also were part of the downfall.
2 new books the past year and nothing really as far as discussion over them. We had both Jim Wilson and Thomas Glover posting recently and still across the net there is nothing much to really note. Problem is as soon as people disagree it somehow turns to feuds and worse. Too many experts and too few apprentices really. There is little that would entice me to get involved if I was a newbie. The whole thing is so difficult to wrap ones hands around, it is not for the impatient.
This forum is unique and it could have eventually made most of the books on the subject obsolete. Younger folks are more for action and Old men like to be mysterious and keep secrets. A few like Randy and myself fit in between the 2. Of course the forum helped us to learn and make our own judgement calls.
More than the lack of input and freshness is the division of Dutch Hunters that seems to be the rule over more than a century.
That is something that will never get reconciled. We are looking at something where the success rate is awful and most of the time the experts were wrong. The LDM is a history of errors, lies and deceipt. The forum could have moved us beyond that point, but I think it is not something that can entirely start anew. I think we lost a piece of the whole and now it is just lost.
The arguments and disagreements were part of the sucess. But they also were part of the downfall.
Azmula, some of what you say might well be true,but the "superior and negative attitudes" you describe came from both sides of the fence.but that aside please dont use my post as an excuse to advertise the "other" site,or as a possible alternative, as a platform to attack another member,if you wish to do that just start a new thread under the title "250 reasons why i hate joe" 
or whatever. By the way i thought your thesis was nonsense also,but like everyone else you have a right to express your opinion.
zentull, youre right,about the arguments contributing to both the success and downfall issue....it just went too far,why i dont know,....why cant folks just get along? agree to differ etc. unanswerable question i know.
Is it also,just maybe , that the tale is played out?That there ever was mine or gold ,for me,anyway has been a major,major doubt for many years.The tale excites younger peoples imaginations,and once it gets a hold on you,its sorta "stays in the blood" ,even tho u prob know at heart its a fraud. As for the book issue,well has any book in the last 50 or so years really added anything of substance that hadnt allready been in print? newly worded perhaps,extra b.s added maybe ......dutchman books? ive read so many and learnt so very little from them.....but this forum provided so much information,so many theories ,some humour at times and not a little pathos.....its had it all in one measure or another..lets hope the forum gets back on its feet"!
or whatever. By the way i thought your thesis was nonsense also,but like everyone else you have a right to express your opinion.zentull, youre right,about the arguments contributing to both the success and downfall issue....it just went too far,why i dont know,....why cant folks just get along? agree to differ etc. unanswerable question i know.
Is it also,just maybe , that the tale is played out?That there ever was mine or gold ,for me,anyway has been a major,major doubt for many years.The tale excites younger peoples imaginations,and once it gets a hold on you,its sorta "stays in the blood" ,even tho u prob know at heart its a fraud. As for the book issue,well has any book in the last 50 or so years really added anything of substance that hadnt allready been in print? newly worded perhaps,extra b.s added maybe ......dutchman books? ive read so many and learnt so very little from them.....but this forum provided so much information,so many theories ,some humour at times and not a little pathos.....its had it all in one measure or another..lets hope the forum gets back on its feet"!
Don update your email address
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Real Deal?
Don,
Should you ever be lucky enough to stand over the pit that is the LDM, climb the short distance above it to view Weaver's Needle, make the descent into the canyon below.....seeing along the way, some of the known clues, including the rock house at the bottom......you will know you were standing where Jacob Waltz once stood.
For some reason that pit has been, once again, covered over. The truth often has a way of climbing out of the grave and laughing at those who have attempted to bury it. Many wish to keep it in the ground.....for any number of reasons.
I trust all is well with you and the family.
Take care,
Joe
Should you ever be lucky enough to stand over the pit that is the LDM, climb the short distance above it to view Weaver's Needle, make the descent into the canyon below.....seeing along the way, some of the known clues, including the rock house at the bottom......you will know you were standing where Jacob Waltz once stood.
For some reason that pit has been, once again, covered over. The truth often has a way of climbing out of the grave and laughing at those who have attempted to bury it. Many wish to keep it in the ground.....for any number of reasons.
I trust all is well with you and the family.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Real Deal?
Well that's arguable about whether that site is the LDM or not. Personally, I don't think it is. I'm about 99% positive it's not. Not that I know what your talking aboutDon,
Should you ever be lucky enough to stand over the pit that is the LDM, climb the short distance above it to view Weaver's Needle, make the descent into the canyon below.....seeing along the way, some of the known clues, including the rock house at the bottom......you will know you were standing where Jacob Waltz once stood.
Joe
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
1%
Randy,
I am aware of your opinion. Do you have a better place to offer?
Joe
I am aware of your opinion. Do you have a better place to offer?
Joe
Joe,
No Sir, I don't. I haven't actually begun my hunt for the physical mine yet, so I don't have a site picket out yet. Must do more research first
On that note, not having a site of "my own" does not prevent me from discounting other sites as the site of the LDM.
We're all entitled to our opinions
No Sir, I don't. I haven't actually begun my hunt for the physical mine yet, so I don't have a site picket out yet. Must do more research first
On that note, not having a site of "my own" does not prevent me from discounting other sites as the site of the LDM.
We're all entitled to our opinions
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
joe,
The clues? which ones exactly?With the plethora of clues available from any number of books,from campfire tales etc,a case could be made regarding any number of locations as THE site.Of course there is also an issue regarding the cryptic form in which some of the clues were issued,isnt there?
And,of course ,what makes you so confident that ANY of the individuals who "gave" these clues away were telling the truth? (thats supposing that there was a mine to begin with) .through the years ,stories that were an integral part of the legend ,and by definition "clues", have been dismantled,and several others ,while not completely destroyed have been severely "dented" by research. It seems to me that the more one chips away at the whole story ,the more fragile it becomes.Some facts have become,in the light of what we now know, mere fabrications....other "facts" hang by the most fragile thread....some facts such as the stone maps, the waltz receipt,the brownie holmes gold are kept alive only by wishful thinking.....the whole tale is kept alive by a patchwork of "conjecture ,hearsay and very little supporting evidence" unfortunately.
The clues? which ones exactly?With the plethora of clues available from any number of books,from campfire tales etc,a case could be made regarding any number of locations as THE site.Of course there is also an issue regarding the cryptic form in which some of the clues were issued,isnt there?
And,of course ,what makes you so confident that ANY of the individuals who "gave" these clues away were telling the truth? (thats supposing that there was a mine to begin with) .through the years ,stories that were an integral part of the legend ,and by definition "clues", have been dismantled,and several others ,while not completely destroyed have been severely "dented" by research. It seems to me that the more one chips away at the whole story ,the more fragile it becomes.Some facts have become,in the light of what we now know, mere fabrications....other "facts" hang by the most fragile thread....some facts such as the stone maps, the waltz receipt,the brownie holmes gold are kept alive only by wishful thinking.....the whole tale is kept alive by a patchwork of "conjecture ,hearsay and very little supporting evidence" unfortunately.
Don update your email address
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Joe Ribaudo
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All True.....
Don,
Much of what you say is completely true.
There has to be the combination of a number of the clues culminating in a pit mine near the top.... with a tunnel started into the hillside below. There may also be a stone house in the canyon below. You may have to climb a short distance above the mine to see Weaver's Needle framed like the Dutchman's drawing.
At that point, a group of men willing to work in the heat of summer risking everything......if they are caught, and leaving behind an empty hole in the ground....becomes the final clue.
No, every clue will not be present.
Just an opinion, based on the work of others, so I could be wrong. Many will say I am.....and they may be right.
Take care,
Joe
Much of what you say is completely true.
There has to be the combination of a number of the clues culminating in a pit mine near the top.... with a tunnel started into the hillside below. There may also be a stone house in the canyon below. You may have to climb a short distance above the mine to see Weaver's Needle framed like the Dutchman's drawing.
At that point, a group of men willing to work in the heat of summer risking everything......if they are caught, and leaving behind an empty hole in the ground....becomes the final clue.
No, every clue will not be present.
Just an opinion, based on the work of others, so I could be wrong. Many will say I am.....and they may be right.
Take care,
Joe
joe,
Me being me
my own requirements for believing the main thrust of the legend would begin a little earlier in the time frame than when the clues began to emerge. Id need to be aware first that there was irrefutable evidence that waltz was ever "in the money"..if someone could show me or convince me of that ,then it might well induce a different attitude. as for the location you describe, well sure ,if he had a mine ,then it may well be it, but then theres no real way of knowing is there? the clues youve stated are pretty well meaningless in trying to ascertain a particular spot i feel.....stone houses?theres more than 1 as you know....red tanks springs to mind.......tunnels? big ones or little ones? ........maybe its something we are all guilty of at times...seeing what we want to see.........as for waltzs sketch ,it has very little credence for me, about the same as brownies dwarf deer or was it rabbits ?
sorry about pouring cold water over things ,but i tend to be cynical about most things .....you may be right,but the problem is how in hell can one prove or disprove it?......blind faith is not a ni ethic i.adhere to.....take care
Me being me
my own requirements for believing the main thrust of the legend would begin a little earlier in the time frame than when the clues began to emerge. Id need to be aware first that there was irrefutable evidence that waltz was ever "in the money"..if someone could show me or convince me of that ,then it might well induce a different attitude. as for the location you describe, well sure ,if he had a mine ,then it may well be it, but then theres no real way of knowing is there? the clues youve stated are pretty well meaningless in trying to ascertain a particular spot i feel.....stone houses?theres more than 1 as you know....red tanks springs to mind.......tunnels? big ones or little ones? ........maybe its something we are all guilty of at times...seeing what we want to see.........as for waltzs sketch ,it has very little credence for me, about the same as brownies dwarf deer or was it rabbits ?sorry about pouring cold water over things ,but i tend to be cynical about most things
.....you may be right,but the problem is how in hell can one prove or disprove it?......blind faith is not a ni ethic i.adhere to.....take careDon update your email address
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Joe Ribaudo
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Right.....
Don,
I am sure you must be correct on this one.
Take care,
Joe
I am sure you must be correct on this one.
Take care,
Joe