Randy and I were discussing the reasons and probability of the Massacre of The Peraltas earlier today.
Many of the reasons given towards the gathering of the Native Americans to attack the Mexican miners seem flawed. I feel that the Apache (or whoever were the principle offended party) had been fine with the Mexican market set up and perhaps during a raid a prominent or well liked member was killed. The Apache would be more likely to act upon such a revenge factor than any other reason I could think of. The coalition would be offered part of the booty and it simply plays into a much more factual scenario for me.
Peralta Massacre
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Joe Ribaudo
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Apache In The Superstition
Wayne,
Lot's of reasons to doubt the massacre story......as it has been told. Probably small groups of miners were killed by non-Apache Native Americans.
The real myth, IMHO, is the Apache presense in the Superstitions. Food was the real driving force behind Indian aggression, and the Superstitions were not part of the Apache food chain. Others held that area.
In those days, just about every hostile was called Apache.
Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.
Joe
Lot's of reasons to doubt the massacre story......as it has been told. Probably small groups of miners were killed by non-Apache Native Americans.
The real myth, IMHO, is the Apache presense in the Superstitions. Food was the real driving force behind Indian aggression, and the Superstitions were not part of the Apache food chain. Others held that area.
In those days, just about every hostile was called Apache.
Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.
Joe
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Thomas Glover
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- Contact:
Wayne,
I was listening to a tape of a conversation I had with another Dutch Hunter the other day. The tape was made years ago and it had been years since I listened to it. In it was something I had forgotten. In my conversations with Linda Peraltas I was told that after hearing of the “massacre” the family returned to retrieve the remains. I put the word massacre in quotes, as it was apparently not a true massacre as some escaped.
Joe,
I am no expert on the Amerindians and the Superstitions. What tribe(s) was/were dominant in that region? I ask as I had thought that the area was what I call a gray zone, i.e., that several different tribes used or traveled through the region including the Apache. It seems to me that before the 1887 earthquake and the coming of the cattlemen that the area must have been a very desirable one with good game.
Best to all,
Thomas
I was listening to a tape of a conversation I had with another Dutch Hunter the other day. The tape was made years ago and it had been years since I listened to it. In it was something I had forgotten. In my conversations with Linda Peraltas I was told that after hearing of the “massacre” the family returned to retrieve the remains. I put the word massacre in quotes, as it was apparently not a true massacre as some escaped.
Joe,
I am no expert on the Amerindians and the Superstitions. What tribe(s) was/were dominant in that region? I ask as I had thought that the area was what I call a gray zone, i.e., that several different tribes used or traveled through the region including the Apache. It seems to me that before the 1887 earthquake and the coming of the cattlemen that the area must have been a very desirable one with good game.
Best to all,
Thomas
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Joe Ribaudo
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Tribes
Thomas,
From what I have read, the idea that "tribes" occupied an area in the Superstitions is misleading. That gives the idea of large numbers of Native Americans living in a village or close community and under the leadership of a Chief.
Other than pre-history, I don't believe the Superstitions could support more than small family groups who individually, for the most part, followed the food cycle throughout the area.
One of the primary reasons for their collective aggression, was Anglo intrusion into that food cycle. Their existance was so marginal, that any change in their normal subsistance was catastrophic.
The Native Americans who occupied the Superstitions are, pretty much, historically documented. I have a few books on the subject.
Most of the above is my personal opinion, so I could be wrong.
Take care,
Joe
From what I have read, the idea that "tribes" occupied an area in the Superstitions is misleading. That gives the idea of large numbers of Native Americans living in a village or close community and under the leadership of a Chief.
Other than pre-history, I don't believe the Superstitions could support more than small family groups who individually, for the most part, followed the food cycle throughout the area.
One of the primary reasons for their collective aggression, was Anglo intrusion into that food cycle. Their existance was so marginal, that any change in their normal subsistance was catastrophic.
The Native Americans who occupied the Superstitions are, pretty much, historically documented. I have a few books on the subject.
Most of the above is my personal opinion, so I could be wrong.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Old Post.....
Thomas,
This post gives an answer to your question. Others may disagree, and it could be wrong. I believe the groups mentioned held the Superstitions as their territory:
[Knun,
That's a great piece of detective work. All of your point are more than valid. The only nit I would pick would be the name "Jacobs" as opposed to Jake's actual last name of Jacob. Not to worry, as many people who you would think would know better, have made the same mistake. Tom Kollenborn and Joe Ribaudo are the first two to come to my mind.
The "Yavapais" portion of your post may not be as pertinent as one would first think.
The name "Yavapais" is actually a bit of a misnomer. What are generally called Yavapais, are in reality a group of Upper Yuman speaking peoples. They are four distinct tribes: Tolkepayas, Wipukepas, Kwevkepayas and Yavapes.
The reason this is important to your post, is because not all of these tribes were enemy's of all Apaches. The "Yavapais" and the Tonto Apache were very close, both in territory and relationships. The intermarriage between them was so common and over such a long period of time, that the blood lines became, almost, one.
This was the reasoning for my saying the Yavapais were Apache. At what point is one tribe absorbed, or two peoples for that matter, to the extent that they lose their original identities?
You need to look no farther than the the Yavapais Nation of today, to have their opinion.
Your post will definitely start some wheels turning. Nice work.]
Once again......Just opinion.
Joe
This post gives an answer to your question. Others may disagree, and it could be wrong. I believe the groups mentioned held the Superstitions as their territory:
[Knun,
That's a great piece of detective work. All of your point are more than valid. The only nit I would pick would be the name "Jacobs" as opposed to Jake's actual last name of Jacob. Not to worry, as many people who you would think would know better, have made the same mistake. Tom Kollenborn and Joe Ribaudo are the first two to come to my mind.
The "Yavapais" portion of your post may not be as pertinent as one would first think.
The name "Yavapais" is actually a bit of a misnomer. What are generally called Yavapais, are in reality a group of Upper Yuman speaking peoples. They are four distinct tribes: Tolkepayas, Wipukepas, Kwevkepayas and Yavapes.
The reason this is important to your post, is because not all of these tribes were enemy's of all Apaches. The "Yavapais" and the Tonto Apache were very close, both in territory and relationships. The intermarriage between them was so common and over such a long period of time, that the blood lines became, almost, one.
This was the reasoning for my saying the Yavapais were Apache. At what point is one tribe absorbed, or two peoples for that matter, to the extent that they lose their original identities?
You need to look no farther than the the Yavapais Nation of today, to have their opinion.
Your post will definitely start some wheels turning. Nice work.]
Once again......Just opinion.
Joe
Thomas Glover wrote: In my conversations with Linda Peraltas I was told that after hearing of the “massacre” the family returned to retrieve the remains. I put the word massacre in quotes, as it was apparently not a true massacre as some escaped.
Best to all,
Thomas
That's interesting! Did she say anymore? Obviously they didn't get all the remains, as some were discovered. I never thought of them coming back for the bodies. Wild.
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari