LDM Mine Descriptions - Your Favorite Clue

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,
Every single story concerning the LDM and surrounding lore, stretches credulity a mite. To the breaking point usually. That's because Dutch Hunters by definition are all born story tellers and sometimes habitual liars. My mother's uncle, Obie Stoker, was one of the biggest and best. Many legends are grounded in some truth, so you should not dismiss the whole story as being untrue. If your mind is open to all possibilities, you will not overlook that most important clue, which will help you find the mine. Do not believe that an Apache would never do this or that thing, although Peter did qualify his statement with Apache Chief. They hunted down their own relatives for the army, killing them in the battles. A number of them were also spies, reporting any plans, breaking of rules or dissatisfaction on the reservations. The Pimas, with enough motivation and the right leader, would enter the jaws of hell. Indian history is replete with this sort of activity.
The comment by Peter, that "The Thorne story simply did not occur as outlined by Bark.", is an - absolute - statement, leaving no room for maybe. He follows that with, " Thorne most likely came upon his gold.....",
which is an absolute, maybe. I prefer your version because the writer was closer in time to the event. You might say it is the best evidence. Don't mean to step on any toes here, but you might want to stay focused on your own theories. They are as good as anyone's.
This is all my own opinion and wil be subject to intense rebuttal, I am sure.
I could, of course, be wrong, which will be pointed out soon.
Joe

[Peter]

Yup, Joe.

You are wrong.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
You are quick. Reading back on my post, I needed to make a few small changes.
I am often wrong, so it's no big deal. Usually if someone corrects me, they are slightly more verbose. Your terse reply offers no proof or counterpoint. If Roger is to accept your dismissal of his favorite clues, you might want to present more then, "Yup, Joe. You are wrong." I accept it as a comment on the accuracy of my post alone.
Joe

[Peter]

While additional commentary would doubtless be welcome, I am at this time "all commented out" as I have been burning up the keyboard and pen on other matters related to the LDM (not on this forum).

I will, however, throw some fresh clues out there. I dont have any favorites...I tend to look at the preponderance of the evidence. Anyone who thinks they will find the mine using 1 or 2 favorite clues has some nice surprises in store when they try to put that approach into practice. These clues wont help anyone find the mine by themselves, but I am fairly certain as to their veracity.

1) Its high up, yet you have to go down.

2) A rock house is involved (or 2 or 3)

3) A north trending canyon

4) Rock spires are important

5) There are most likely multiple "mines".

Enjoy.

[LDM]

Delete.

[Lone_Wolf]

That is really what I call an INFORMATIVE Post! Between LDM, Joe Ribaudo and a few others, there is getting to be a lot of really good information collecting on this site. Joe and LDM appear to be a couple of guys that really know their way around the Dutchman Legend, Both IN and OUT of the Mountains!

They are obviously not "Arm Chair Dutchman Hunters" that spend a few days a year in the mtns and all the rest of the year shooting off steam about those few days.

I have been interested (both in and out of the mountains) in the Legend myself since the mid 1950's and thought I had a pretty good handle on the "Big Picture", but I have to tip my hat to these two guys. The depth of their knowledge and their willingness to so unselfishly share selected parts of it IS impressive

After following this forum, almost from it's beginning, I decided I just had to register so I could tip my hat to them!

Lone Wolf

[Lone_Wolf]

Since I am here, I guess I should go ahead and answer Roger's original question. I guess I would have to say that my favorites are the things that are carved in stone.

Unlike the verbal clues that have been passed down through the generations, the information on the "Peralta" Stone Maps "Bob Ward's" Latin Heart, and "Michael Bilbrey's" Stone Crosses remain unchanged as the years pass.

My own experiences working with these "maps" both in the mountains and at the comfort of my desk, over the years has led me to believe there is a certain amount of consistancy and overlapping information on these items.

I do not however, have any faith in things found carved into stone out in the mtns. As my own experiences in that area conclude that those carvings appear, disappear and get added to as much as or even more than the verbal clues do.

I guess it is appropriate for me to say here: "But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong" and then *Blink*

Lone Wolf

[LDM]

Deleted.

[Roger]

Several of the Forum posters give reference to the Stone Maps as being one of the "authenic" clues to the LDM. I spent some time on them in 1995 with literature search and correlation to topo maps. I then had the opportunity to spend 1/2 day with Chuck Kenworthy in Apache Junction and have him explain how the maps were meant to be used and how they were encoded to confuse the finders. Most LDM hunders have a dim view of Chuck and I must admit he seemed a little off in some areas, but he was the only person I have met that has made a very good living off treasure hunting for over 20 years. He indicated that he had learned the Spanish methods for map making and how they encoded them to prevent individuals from decoding them that did not know the keys. He also indicted that "heart" maps were used in Europe over 200 yrs and he had worked on a number of them. He published some of the map rules and in the field makers in his book, Treasure Signs, Symbols Shadow & Sun Signs, in 1991.

Chuck stated that the Stone Maps refer to a Spanish/Mexican mine that is different from the one he claims he located on the North side of Bluff Springs Mtn and detailed in his later book "Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman (1997)". The stone map with the heart depression is intended to have the finder to insert the heart stone in the depression and then to try to dechiper the map in that configuration. However, due to the bottom map stone marking of 2=3, the heart stone must be pulled out of the depression, roated 45 degrees clockwise, and moved so that the 1st dot of the heart map becomes the 9th dot in the chain of dots from the bottom stone upward. The specific instruction that requires this is that with the heart in the depression, there are 3 X's on the total map. In order to make 2 equal to 3, the stone must be removed from the cavity and the 3rd X placed over the 2nd X. This creates the position described. This creates a very different path to the mine location than someone would get from the stone in the cavity. The Priest and Horse side of the maps contain the detailed directions to locate the mine form the last circled dot on the heart stone and are heavily encoded. Chuck would only share a few of the decoding steps of these maps and certainly not enough to locate anything from. Here are the few I remember just to give you a feeling for how heavily encoded this map is:

1. On the Horse side of the stone: The Cross is the Tobias sign and points to the letter L in the word EL. This means to count the number of letters in the sentence which is 18.
2. In the word Santa the first A has a slanted cross line that points to the verticle line in the letter N to its right. This means to go North. Instructions 1 and 2 combine to mean "go 18 places North".
3. The 2nd A in Santa is also sloped and it points to the cresent shaped figure just above and behind the horse's front leg. The cesent symbol means to turn 45 degrees left which points to the horses eye which is really the number 10. The line then extends on to the horse's mane between its eyes which is realy the letters NW. This instruction means to "go 10 places NW" and is the 2nd directional travel instruction.

It is easy to see how heavily encoded this map is and how a novice would never decode it correctly. One must remember that the Spanish were into treasure and mine map making for 3-400 years and became adept at making them difficult for someone not knowing the mapping codes to understand it.

I agree with others that have posted that the Mexicans had more than one gold mine in the Supers - I would suspect at least 3 and possibly more. Several were covered by the Indians, but the "real" LDM being so high up and difficult to reach that it was left opened. However, the years have undoubedly finished the job the Indians did not do.

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Lone Wolf and LDM,
I appreciate your kind words. I consider myself a neophyte compared to you, LDM. I also realize my shortcomings when I read the comments of S.C., Peter, Ron, Roger and all the others who have done so much research over the years. Concerning my time in the mountains. I go in once a year and have missed that goal a number of times in the past 44 years. I have on occasion exceeded that once yearly trip as well. That probably qualifies me as an "Armchair Dutch Hunter." I do have a high opinion of my own opinions and conclusions. I came to these conclusions by making a lucky guess around thirty years ago. It took me outside the popular theories of that time, as well as the present, while keeping me completly within the legends. Since that first guess, I have put the rest of it together, finding evidence on the ground to prove me correct. My next trip may be my last.
Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

[quote="Peter"]Anyone who thinks they will find the mine using 1 or 2 favorite clues has some nice surprises in store when they try to put that approach into practice. These clues wont help anyone find the mine by themselves, but I am fairly certain as to their veracity.


Peter,
We seem to have a knack for comments the other can't agree with. As I approach the end of my own personal search for a treasure or mine in the Supes, I find that many of these single clues will take you to the ravine I believe the mine is in. It's especially nice when many clues bring you to the same location. I never intended to look for the LDM. I believe there is a place in the Supes where processed ore was placed for storage while waiting for the return trip to Mexico. That has been my own search interest. I call it the final location from the Stone Map Trail. There are mines marked on the maps. The end of the trail is a circle in a circle. Using the Stone Maps, I found that circle in a circle a number of years ago. It was exactly where the maps indicated it would be. I also found the two stone monuments, exactly where the maps indicated. I suspected the LDM could also be on those maps. Once I came to that possible conclusion, the bulk of the clues, maps and stories affirmed that belief. Many of them would, by themselves, have brought me to the same ravine I will explore on my next trip.
Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,
Very interesting post. Having a photograph of the circle in a circle keeps this old brain focused on the reality of the Stone Maps. I also have a picture of the curved line off the top of the 1, ending in the arrowhead, or triangle. The position of these objects in correlation with each other and the rest of the trail maps, makes the Kenworthy theory unlikely. Where have you placed the trail? Most have it in Whiskey Spring Canyon. Hard to argue with that conclusion. Do you find it confusing when the rest of the trail does not conform to the Stone Maps? If Whiskey Spring Canyon is the lower map trail, where does spinning the heart 45 degrees place the circle in a circle? What if the position of the heart is not meant to be changed? Where would that place the all important, final location? What points are the locator dots? Sometimes the most direct mental path between two thoughts, actually is a straight line. Perhaps the maps need no interpretation. There are some who would argue that the heart shape did not exist 200 years ago. Any members care to clarify that little inconsistancy? Sounds like that would be right up LDM's alley.
Joe

[S.C.]

Joe,

You are referring to the Stone Maps again and I always get confused.

I have no comments there.

But, I would like to light-heartedly get back to the idea of a "single" clue. A single "favorite" clue. That is the topic that started it all. Many have thrown out groups of clues and the like. And, I have done my notorious "side-stepping" of the issue with vague or non-commital responses.

However, this sounds simplistic... But, if I had to think of one clue that was important above all others... And was, therefore, a favorite... Then what would it be? Well, this sounds simplistic but... the clue that I think is important and all so true: a north running canyon.

S.C.

[Wiz]

Here's one no one has said yet: Four Peaks appear as one.

Also, food for thought: I've seen different stories of how long Waltz was in the mountains at a time before bringing out some gold. One version has it that he would spend most of the winter out there. Another says he was only gone for a few days. This would, of course, make a big difference in where he got his gold and whether it was a cache or a mine.

Opinions, anyone?

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
I don't mind mentioning some of the clues I have found, I just don't want to be explicit. I hope that is not what is confusing you. My comment in the previous post fits your favorite clue, to a T. If you have that north running canyon, you have the mine. As clues go, I have that one down cold. Just need to find that six or seven mile trail to the mine. That single clue however, may not be all that is needed to find the mine. As for side-stepping the issues, you do tend to resemble the sheriff from The Best Little Whorehouse In Texas, on occasion. Without that canyon, the Dutch Hunter has very little indeed. You could, of course, just search the ridges without looking in the canyons.
Joe

[S.C.]

Side stepping again....

You mentioned: "...Just need to find that six or seven mile trail to the mine. ..." I agree. That clue is also very important. But now we are getting into the "multiple clues"arena.

Hmmmm... I also seem to remember some confusion about whether a trail (maybe this 6-7 mile trail in question) was cut into solid rock. If that is the case, I think said person did not mean the entire length of it. Just parts. I think the intent was that it was an old well worn trail. In a surprising place. Like over a mountain. Why? Because maybe the canyon/wash/creek beds below were so rough there was no way to go but up over a mountain(s).

Anyone know of any creek beds that are so rough one has to climb over rocks and boulders to make any progress? Ones so rough that a person is tempted to turn back... Or look for an easier way to proceed?

[Wiz]

Anyone know of any creek beds that are so rough one has to climb over rocks and boulders to make any progress? Ones so rough that a person is tempted to turn back... Or look for an easier way to proceed?

Sure! And there's a rock in the shape of a horse's head in it. And a rock shaped like an Indian's head. I think all of you probably know where I mean.

[Wiz]

If you have that north running canyon, you have the mine. As clues go, I have that one down cold.

Joe,
You seem AWFULLY SURE.

Got gold?

[Peter]

<< Got gold? >>

Wiz,

Well said. That, of course, is the question that begs a reply. The only reply that matters, of course.

While I read the discourse back and forth about Kenworthy, the Stone Maps, Dr Abraham Thorne, and the like it amazes me that so many
well-read, solid researchers and hunters have such different opinions on the LDM, its location and the clues that took them there.

Aint America a grand place.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

P

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz and Peter,
We are all working on an extremely intricate and elaborate puzzle. It is complicated by pieces that fit in more then one place, but if placed in the wrong location, throw the whole puzzle out of sequence. You each have placed as many pieces in as many places as you can. You are now looking at the puzzle as you have completed it. Does the entire picture, using all the parts of the puzzle make sense? Or do you tell yourself that the few pieces which do not make sense are unimportant and you can just leave them out? Picture looks just fine, kinda. If I looked at your puzzle, would I throw mine in the trash, or would I say: What about these pieces you left out? If I showed you my puzzle, you could not find a piece left out or in the wrong location.
I expect the LDM to be a worked-out pit. I am looking for history. There are, however, mines which were covered and a cave with gold bars. Final location: circle in a circle? I am as sure as you are, with no little, nagging doubts to keep me awake nights.
Happy Turkey Day.
Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
I think I should have placed that LOL a little sooner in my last post.

What if that trail left the canyon well before it got to rough? Suppose the canyon was no problem, start to finish? If the canyon walls were extremely steep as you neared the ravine and the ravine was impossible to traverse, you might need to leave the canyon a number of miles prior to the mine. That could be a missing piece of the puzzle, which brings us back to the Joe Deering story. It might necessitate coming down to the mine, instead of going directly up. Sound familiar? Close to 40 years ago I wrote into the margin of Trail of the Lost Dutchman, "Find the mine from the ridges, not the canyons." That was when I believed there was a LDM. That still might be the answer. We are going to try to climb the canyon our next trip in. If that fails, we will go directly to the two monuments and work our way to the head of the ravine from there. Perhaps we will see the famous tree stumps.
Joe

[S.C.]

I agree about canyons. One has to climb up if they intend to find anything. NOTHING is conveniently located at the bottom of canyons close to nice clear trails.

One must climb up and then work down. The question is: where? What hill, saddle, ridge, or mountain must one climb up to start looking?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,
I notice you got no responce to the Four Peaks question. I have heard that clue talked about more then once. I could be wrong on this, but I believe the four peaks in question are: Peters Mt., Browns Peak, Buckhorn Mt. and Sweethart Peak. If anyone in the forum has them as other then that, I would like to know the correct names. If those are the correct names, they will never line up, as one, from any position on the planet. If only three of those are correct, they will still never line up as one. I think someone in the forum at some time, gave a place in the Superstitions where they would line up as one. If that is true, they are not the Four Peaks in Arizona, as known to map makers. The only other Four Peaks in Arizona are in the Parker area.

I really like Peter's post where he gave five clues, even though I don't think there being multiple mine's is a clue. How many of us can list five clues, which are considered fairly reliable, and have them apply to our own conclusions? Perhaps you should try that, or even ten clues. Might be interesting. We all would, of course, throw-out the clues that don't apply to our area, as false. We could do a poll with the ten best known clues, with only true or false as an answer. Here is Question #1 Is the LDM above the old military trail? T/F If there is interest in this type of pole, someone else would submit question # 2 One per member. What do you think?
Joe

[Roger]

I never placed much trust in the clue of the 4 Peaks looking like one as a valid one or one that would narrow down a specific area. For a general location set of clues, the ones that Helen Corbin documented in her new book, The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, are most likely authentic. On pages 184-187 she gives the German language clues that Herman Petrasch had written down from his questioning of JuliaThomas and Rhienhardt Petrasch. The four most telling ones are:

1. From my camp in its saddle, you will see a peak in the distance to the South with a hole.

2. To the West you will see another peak.

3. A high (or higher) mountain is to the East.

4. A low valley (or deep valley) lies to the West.

Where in the Supers would this set of clues fit the best???????

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,
Good job on the clues. Is there any interest among the members in doing a poll on individual clues. My question concerning the mine being above the old military trail would be a true or false poll standing alone. One of Rogers clues would be a stand alone poll question and one each from other members. One clue only, per member. The resulting totals would prove interesting without compromising anyone's search area, or conclusions. The numbers would, if applied to each of our own conclusions, be a real eye opener. If 70 percent or higher, for instance, thought the LDM was above the old military trail and our own favorite area did not conform with that clue, you might just discount that clue altogether. On the other hand, if five or six clues with a high percent of member confidence did not fit into our area, a little soul searching and re-thinking might be in order. Is that, like thinking the LDM might be a worked out pit, not something we would want to think about?
Any comments?
Joe