I was told that Tom Kollenborn absolutely believes that the Peralta Stones are a hoax. I haven't been able to find proof af that, and thought someone here could help me.
If it is true, what does he base this on? Since he has much personal knowledge on the subject of the LDM, his thoughts would give great weight to the argument for or against their authenticity.
Thanks-Mike
Tom Kollenborn and The Peralta Stones
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Mike McChesney
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Mike McChesney
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- Posts: 506
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Joe Ribaudo
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Tom Kollenborn
Mike,
Can't help but think this is a dicey question to ask. The only person to answer that question.......is Tom Kollenborn. Why not ask him? Since he has such a strong opinion, he must have his reasons. If he declines to say why, I would suspect it's because he can't.
I have some strong opinions related to your question, but have no desire to voice them in a public forum.
Joe Ribaudo
Can't help but think this is a dicey question to ask. The only person to answer that question.......is Tom Kollenborn. Why not ask him? Since he has such a strong opinion, he must have his reasons. If he declines to say why, I would suspect it's because he can't.
I have some strong opinions related to your question, but have no desire to voice them in a public forum.
Joe Ribaudo
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Mike McChesney
- Expert
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
- Location: Arizona Vagrant
Thanks Joe,
I have ideas myself, but I would dearly love to find out those two things. I have seen the Bob Corbin thing many times, but no proof of it. A positive word from him or his wife would probably put me over the fence (which I'm still sitting on).
I have been going through the threads here about the Peralta Stones, but 36 pages is a LOT of reading! In one of them, one person was going to write Bob Corbin and ask him about the FBI Tests. Haven't found an update.
I would say they were hoaxes, but EVERY proof of hoax I have seen, I can shoot down, they make no sense, or are unverifiable. Take for instance Father Polzer: I know a guy that owns the land in Mexico that the Tayopa Mines are on. He has been there for 40 years, and knew father Polzer personally. He says he is a good man, but all his arguiments against Jesuit mining are self serving and not to be trusted (He was a Jesuit after all, and they think all that treasure is still theirs).
How would one go about contacting Tom K? I have no qualms about calling or emailing him. That's how I got my connections to several of the Archives in Rome (Jesuit, Archivio Segreto Vaticano, Propaganda Fides).
Best,
Mike
I have ideas myself, but I would dearly love to find out those two things. I have seen the Bob Corbin thing many times, but no proof of it. A positive word from him or his wife would probably put me over the fence (which I'm still sitting on).
I have been going through the threads here about the Peralta Stones, but 36 pages is a LOT of reading! In one of them, one person was going to write Bob Corbin and ask him about the FBI Tests. Haven't found an update.
I would say they were hoaxes, but EVERY proof of hoax I have seen, I can shoot down, they make no sense, or are unverifiable. Take for instance Father Polzer: I know a guy that owns the land in Mexico that the Tayopa Mines are on. He has been there for 40 years, and knew father Polzer personally. He says he is a good man, but all his arguiments against Jesuit mining are self serving and not to be trusted (He was a Jesuit after all, and they think all that treasure is still theirs).
How would one go about contacting Tom K? I have no qualms about calling or emailing him. That's how I got my connections to several of the Archives in Rome (Jesuit, Archivio Segreto Vaticano, Propaganda Fides).
Best,
Mike
Kollenborn and the Corbins
Mike
If you cannot find the answers to your questions in the 36 pages of posts on the stone maps, the odds are either the answer does not exist or is closely guarded info that is not going to be turned loose by the individuals that have it. As far as Mr. K is concerned, the more people you talk to the more different stories you will hear concerning what he does and does not believe. As Joe suggested, Mr. K would be the best source for the answers you seek, but do not be surprised if you ask him the same question 6 months later and get a totally different answer. He may just be filtering his words more with one person than with the next, or he may be putting whatever spin he thinks the individual he is speaking to wants to hear on a particular subject. Either way, the end result is a lot of contradicting statements being attributed to the man. I am not sure anyone knows what Mr. K believes about any aspect of the LDM or the stone maps including Mr. K himself. For years I diligently read his weekly stories about the legends of the superstitions and stories about lost gold mines in them, until I read a review of his book "Ride Thru Time"on amazon.com which opened my eyes to the fact that they were all the same story over and over with just a few things changed or added or turned around in them. I like many other people finally concluded that they were "For entertainment ONLY"! When you make contact with him in person, I think you will find that he does not like questions about his sources or why he believes what he does or "says" he does on specific issues.
If you watch the A&E Documentary about the LDM very closely, and pay attention to the final editing of it, I think you will get a good idea of what the A&E Producers and Directors concluded about some of the people they worked with for many months prior to and during the filming of it. I have it from a very good source that it was by no accident that they used a photo of Mr. K as a backdrop for the words "Cowboys and Con-Men" near the end of the show. You might also notice that they left some of Mr. K's footage in the film that would have been better for Mr. K if it had been left out.
I can't comment at all about Mr. Corbin as I have never met the man or read anything he has personally written about the LDM, but my mother did teach me that people tend to judge you by the company you keep. You can take that for whatever you think it's worth. Something not too well known, is that they also had a considerable amount of footage of Mrs. Corbin that ALL ended up on the cutting floor. Again, no accident.
As I said before, These Whales have already been beached!
Some of the above of course is just my personal opinion but most of it is verifiable thru a number of independant sources.
krf
If you cannot find the answers to your questions in the 36 pages of posts on the stone maps, the odds are either the answer does not exist or is closely guarded info that is not going to be turned loose by the individuals that have it. As far as Mr. K is concerned, the more people you talk to the more different stories you will hear concerning what he does and does not believe. As Joe suggested, Mr. K would be the best source for the answers you seek, but do not be surprised if you ask him the same question 6 months later and get a totally different answer. He may just be filtering his words more with one person than with the next, or he may be putting whatever spin he thinks the individual he is speaking to wants to hear on a particular subject. Either way, the end result is a lot of contradicting statements being attributed to the man. I am not sure anyone knows what Mr. K believes about any aspect of the LDM or the stone maps including Mr. K himself. For years I diligently read his weekly stories about the legends of the superstitions and stories about lost gold mines in them, until I read a review of his book "Ride Thru Time"on amazon.com which opened my eyes to the fact that they were all the same story over and over with just a few things changed or added or turned around in them. I like many other people finally concluded that they were "For entertainment ONLY"! When you make contact with him in person, I think you will find that he does not like questions about his sources or why he believes what he does or "says" he does on specific issues.
If you watch the A&E Documentary about the LDM very closely, and pay attention to the final editing of it, I think you will get a good idea of what the A&E Producers and Directors concluded about some of the people they worked with for many months prior to and during the filming of it. I have it from a very good source that it was by no accident that they used a photo of Mr. K as a backdrop for the words "Cowboys and Con-Men" near the end of the show. You might also notice that they left some of Mr. K's footage in the film that would have been better for Mr. K if it had been left out.
I can't comment at all about Mr. Corbin as I have never met the man or read anything he has personally written about the LDM, but my mother did teach me that people tend to judge you by the company you keep. You can take that for whatever you think it's worth. Something not too well known, is that they also had a considerable amount of footage of Mrs. Corbin that ALL ended up on the cutting floor. Again, no accident.
As I said before, These Whales have already been beached!
Some of the above of course is just my personal opinion but most of it is verifiable thru a number of independant sources.
krf
Last edited by krf on Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It'a ALL in "WHO" you know
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Stone Maps
Gentlemen,
There are many more pages concerning the Stone Maps, than 36. It is, without anything else coming close, the most popular topic on this Forum.
It has far and away the most "views" and the most "replies" of any subject.
That being said, you might assume they are the most closely examined pieces of physical evidence, concerning treasure or mines in the Superstitions, that are available today.
Having spent decades researching those maps, as well as going to the places depicted on them, I can assure you they are maps of the Superstition Mountains.......and very accurate. They were not made by a casual visitor to the range, but by someone who spent years in the mountains.
When I began, I believed they were a Jesuit product. In my efforts to find some evidence of that possibility, I became convinced that they had nothing to do with the maps, nor with any mining in the area.
The profile of the priest, is a dead ringer for Chuck Aylor. See page 210 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" by, Dr. Glover. If the maps are a modern-day product, they were made by Chuck Aylor or someone who knew him......very well.
"You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass." (emphasis in bold by, Joe)
Hamlet by, William Shakespear.
The maps have many clues as to who created them, but you have to know the history of the mountains and the men who knew them best to suspect their creator.
How large is that list? Maybe two or three men..... Perhaps, working together.
Joe Ribaudo
There are many more pages concerning the Stone Maps, than 36. It is, without anything else coming close, the most popular topic on this Forum.
It has far and away the most "views" and the most "replies" of any subject.
That being said, you might assume they are the most closely examined pieces of physical evidence, concerning treasure or mines in the Superstitions, that are available today.
Having spent decades researching those maps, as well as going to the places depicted on them, I can assure you they are maps of the Superstition Mountains.......and very accurate. They were not made by a casual visitor to the range, but by someone who spent years in the mountains.
When I began, I believed they were a Jesuit product. In my efforts to find some evidence of that possibility, I became convinced that they had nothing to do with the maps, nor with any mining in the area.
The profile of the priest, is a dead ringer for Chuck Aylor. See page 210 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" by, Dr. Glover. If the maps are a modern-day product, they were made by Chuck Aylor or someone who knew him......very well.
"You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass." (emphasis in bold by, Joe)
Hamlet by, William Shakespear.
The maps have many clues as to who created them, but you have to know the history of the mountains and the men who knew them best to suspect their creator.
How large is that list? Maybe two or three men..... Perhaps, working together.
Joe Ribaudo
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Mike McChesney
- Expert
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- Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
- Location: Arizona Vagrant
Re:
The maps have many clues as to who created them, but you have to know the history of the mountains and the men who knew them best to suspect their creator.
How large is that list? Maybe two or three men..... Perhaps, working together.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe
A conclusion based on opinions is just another OPINION. Your opinion ignores the FACT that the FBI dated the writing on the stones to be over 100 years old in the 1960's. This could have been easily determined by the amount of Patina and lichen growth observed on the cuts in the stones at the time of the evaluation. If your goal is to direct attention towards Clay Worst or Al Reser (The two men that were closest to Chuck Aylor) as the makers of the stone maps, you will need explain how they could have done it in the 1860's. (GOOD LUCK). Whatever warped conclusion you come to based on your warped opinions may satisfy your own need-to-know the answers, but there are many stone map aficionados that are more sophisticated and more knowledable than yourself, that would not be so easily satisfied with your conclusions.
Mike
I have it in my notes that Greg Davis was the individual that was going to contact Mr. Corbin and try to verify that the FBI evaluation of the stone maps did in fact take place. I do not remember where I read or heard this, but if I put it in my notes I must have believed it to be true at the time. The government is pretty good about keeping records, and even better where court cases are concerned. If you are good at digging deeply for the truth, you might want to look into when the stones were turned over to the Flagg Foundation, and research court cases in that time period for the names of the individuals fighting for ownership of the stones. I believe the Life Magazine article on the stone maps that Joe posted in the members archive has all the names of the people or groups of people, that would have been named in the litigation. You may even turn up a copy of the actual FBI report which should have been entered as evidence in the case.
You find that FBI Lab Report and you have found the Holy Grail of the stone maps!
krf
The maps have many clues as to who created them, but you have to know the history of the mountains and the men who knew them best to suspect their creator.
How large is that list? Maybe two or three men..... Perhaps, working together.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe
A conclusion based on opinions is just another OPINION. Your opinion ignores the FACT that the FBI dated the writing on the stones to be over 100 years old in the 1960's. This could have been easily determined by the amount of Patina and lichen growth observed on the cuts in the stones at the time of the evaluation. If your goal is to direct attention towards Clay Worst or Al Reser (The two men that were closest to Chuck Aylor) as the makers of the stone maps, you will need explain how they could have done it in the 1860's. (GOOD LUCK). Whatever warped conclusion you come to based on your warped opinions may satisfy your own need-to-know the answers, but there are many stone map aficionados that are more sophisticated and more knowledable than yourself, that would not be so easily satisfied with your conclusions.
Mike
I have it in my notes that Greg Davis was the individual that was going to contact Mr. Corbin and try to verify that the FBI evaluation of the stone maps did in fact take place. I do not remember where I read or heard this, but if I put it in my notes I must have believed it to be true at the time. The government is pretty good about keeping records, and even better where court cases are concerned. If you are good at digging deeply for the truth, you might want to look into when the stones were turned over to the Flagg Foundation, and research court cases in that time period for the names of the individuals fighting for ownership of the stones. I believe the Life Magazine article on the stone maps that Joe posted in the members archive has all the names of the people or groups of people, that would have been named in the litigation. You may even turn up a copy of the actual FBI report which should have been entered as evidence in the case.
You find that FBI Lab Report and you have found the Holy Grail of the stone maps!
krf
It'a ALL in "WHO" you know
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Mike McChesney
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- Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
- Location: Arizona Vagrant
Well krf,
I have been inspired! Until now, I have been content to do like everybody else, and sit back, read all the different versions of the story of the stones, and say, "I am on the fence about them."
I just finished writing the Arizona School of Law Head Librarian, The AZ. Minerals and Mining Foundation (which I believe is also the AL Flagg Foundation), and the FBI testing Center. IF those tests were ever done, a written record of them would be in at least ONE of those three places. I just sent in a Freedom of Information Act Request regarding the stones' testing lawsuit as well.
One thing that does stick out in my mind (for the hoax side of the argument), is that Bob Corbin is still alive. His wife has written books on the LDM. I would think he knows the controversy regarding the stones, and would have gotten copies of the relevant paperwork by now. As a former Attorney General, it would have been much easier for him get them.
Oh well, we'll see,
Mike McChesney
I have been inspired! Until now, I have been content to do like everybody else, and sit back, read all the different versions of the story of the stones, and say, "I am on the fence about them."
I just finished writing the Arizona School of Law Head Librarian, The AZ. Minerals and Mining Foundation (which I believe is also the AL Flagg Foundation), and the FBI testing Center. IF those tests were ever done, a written record of them would be in at least ONE of those three places. I just sent in a Freedom of Information Act Request regarding the stones' testing lawsuit as well.
One thing that does stick out in my mind (for the hoax side of the argument), is that Bob Corbin is still alive. His wife has written books on the LDM. I would think he knows the controversy regarding the stones, and would have gotten copies of the relevant paperwork by now. As a former Attorney General, it would have been much easier for him get them.
Oh well, we'll see,
Mike McChesney
Last edited by Mike McChesney on Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Who You Know.....
Mike,
After close to forty years of research into the Stone Maps, I have reached some conclusions as to what they are and where they came from.
For the last few years I have tried to share some of that hard won information with members of this Forum. The results of those efforts has been a series of personal attacks.
After realizing a long time goal, last year, of starting an annual gathering of Dutch Hunters, which had the potential for bringing some of the best minds and knowledge in the field together in one place, I was again attacked. That attack has continued into this year as well.
You have asked me for a conclusion, which has been attacked before I even offered an answer. I have given some clues which will lead some of you to the answers you are seeking. I prefer, at this point, to watch from the sidelines.
krf,
Thank you for naming two men who have no part in any of my conclusions, and never have.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This could have been easily determined by the amount of Patina and lichen growth observed on the cuts in the stones at the time of the evaluation."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see you have done some homework here. Can you tell us how much "lichen growth" and "Patina" one could expect to find on buried rocks after 100 years? Where would one find such a report?
Both lichen and desert varnish (patina) require sunlight.
I don't believe Al Reser or Clay Worst had anything to do with the Stone Maps.
Joe Ribaudo
After close to forty years of research into the Stone Maps, I have reached some conclusions as to what they are and where they came from.
For the last few years I have tried to share some of that hard won information with members of this Forum. The results of those efforts has been a series of personal attacks.
After realizing a long time goal, last year, of starting an annual gathering of Dutch Hunters, which had the potential for bringing some of the best minds and knowledge in the field together in one place, I was again attacked. That attack has continued into this year as well.
You have asked me for a conclusion, which has been attacked before I even offered an answer. I have given some clues which will lead some of you to the answers you are seeking. I prefer, at this point, to watch from the sidelines.
krf,
Thank you for naming two men who have no part in any of my conclusions, and never have.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This could have been easily determined by the amount of Patina and lichen growth observed on the cuts in the stones at the time of the evaluation."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see you have done some homework here. Can you tell us how much "lichen growth" and "Patina" one could expect to find on buried rocks after 100 years? Where would one find such a report?
Both lichen and desert varnish (patina) require sunlight.
I don't believe Al Reser or Clay Worst had anything to do with the Stone Maps.
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mike McChesney
- Expert
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- Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
- Location: Arizona Vagrant
And KRF,
You jumped on Joe about the FBI Testing, but you have no proof (other than anecdotal) that the tests ever occurred!
I think it is perfectly ok to discount the supposed FBI Tests until they are proven to have been done.
Almost every single piece of information having to do with the Peralta Stones is either second, third or fourth hand, or opinions. Did you ever speak to Travis Tumlinson personally? How about his brother/uncle Robert? Have you spoken personally with Bob Corbin or his wife?
Do we know for certain that Tumlinson found the stones? NOPE! There have been a couple of people who said they sold the stones to Tumlinson. Who did Travis Tumlinson tell about finding the stones? The only story we have, comes from his brother (who was supposedly there). The stones stayed a secret until after Travis AND Robert's deaths. They only became public when MOEL INC. wanted some free publicity while trying to find investors after buying the stones for $1200 from Travis' widow, and got the story put in LIFE Magazine (talk about free publicity).
My point in all this is: EVERYBODY'S ideas about the Peralta Stones is THEIR OPINION. It all depends on which circumstantial evidence they choose to believe, and which circumstantial evidence they choose to ignore. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong because there is almost zero factual provable evidence regarding the Peralta Stones!
That's why I started writing all those people. I'm sick of there being nothing hard on something as conceiveably important as the Peralta Stones (if authentic). Until then, Joe's opinion is JUST as valid as ANYBODY else's! There MAY be somebody out there that knows something for a fact, but we don't!
Best,
Mike
You jumped on Joe about the FBI Testing, but you have no proof (other than anecdotal) that the tests ever occurred!
I think it is perfectly ok to discount the supposed FBI Tests until they are proven to have been done.
Almost every single piece of information having to do with the Peralta Stones is either second, third or fourth hand, or opinions. Did you ever speak to Travis Tumlinson personally? How about his brother/uncle Robert? Have you spoken personally with Bob Corbin or his wife?
Do we know for certain that Tumlinson found the stones? NOPE! There have been a couple of people who said they sold the stones to Tumlinson. Who did Travis Tumlinson tell about finding the stones? The only story we have, comes from his brother (who was supposedly there). The stones stayed a secret until after Travis AND Robert's deaths. They only became public when MOEL INC. wanted some free publicity while trying to find investors after buying the stones for $1200 from Travis' widow, and got the story put in LIFE Magazine (talk about free publicity).
My point in all this is: EVERYBODY'S ideas about the Peralta Stones is THEIR OPINION. It all depends on which circumstantial evidence they choose to believe, and which circumstantial evidence they choose to ignore. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong because there is almost zero factual provable evidence regarding the Peralta Stones!
That's why I started writing all those people. I'm sick of there being nothing hard on something as conceiveably important as the Peralta Stones (if authentic). Until then, Joe's opinion is JUST as valid as ANYBODY else's! There MAY be somebody out there that knows something for a fact, but we don't!
Best,
Mike
There you go mike, Go to the SOURCE!
I can only WISH that I did personally know some of the people you mention. But, I am working closer to the sources every day.
You are correct! Too many people write things in their books based on second hand information pertaining to individuals that are still living that are not even contacted to see if the information is valid. Whenever possible, GO TO THE SOURCE! Unless of course the source may say something that will ruin your story. LOL
I made a couple of phone calls in your behalf regarding the FBI and the stone maps episode.
Here is what I found out. It WAS Greg Davis that wrote to Bob Corbin about the matter and he did receive a response from him verifying that the incident did take place. Why Mr. Davis never shared that information with the forum is a matter to ponder, deeply. Maybe he did? And I just haven’t found it yet? Or maybe he got busy with other things and it just slipped his mind?
I am in the process of tracking down a copy of that correspondence from an individual that I was told had a copy of it. Keep your fingers crossed!
Now, assuming all the above is correct, the shortest route to the source would be another correspondence to Mr. Corbin. (Failing Mr. Davis sharing a copy of his) As I was browsing the archives on this site some time ago, I believe I saw an address for Mrs. Corbin where a hard cover leather bound copy of her “Bible” on the LDM could be ordered. That address (if I could only find it again) might a good one to use to contact Mr. Corbin at.
Now, If there was an FBI Lab Report and it was used to determine that the stones were antiquities of the state of Arizona, and thus turned over to the Flagg Foundation as has been suggested, then I cannot imagine Mr. Corbin NOT keeping a copy of that report in his personal LDM files! Right?
If Mr. Corbin did in fact respond to Mr. Davis and verify the event, (Yet to be determined for sure) but Mr. Corbin does not come up with some form of documentation for the event, or at least a lead to where the documentation can be found. I would say there is another Whale on the beach.
Sir Joe
See what happens when you insinuate things about other people without mentioning their names? People jump to the wrong conclusions! I was not attacking Mr. Worst or Mr. Reser, rather I was defending a perceived attack on them by you. If you want to say something then, by all means say it and quit beating around the bush, in a way that is so easily misunderstood, unless you are trying to cover all the bases by making EVERYONE a suspect. I am not attacking YOU, just your methods of deception.
krf
I can only WISH that I did personally know some of the people you mention. But, I am working closer to the sources every day.
You are correct! Too many people write things in their books based on second hand information pertaining to individuals that are still living that are not even contacted to see if the information is valid. Whenever possible, GO TO THE SOURCE! Unless of course the source may say something that will ruin your story. LOL
I made a couple of phone calls in your behalf regarding the FBI and the stone maps episode.
Here is what I found out. It WAS Greg Davis that wrote to Bob Corbin about the matter and he did receive a response from him verifying that the incident did take place. Why Mr. Davis never shared that information with the forum is a matter to ponder, deeply. Maybe he did? And I just haven’t found it yet? Or maybe he got busy with other things and it just slipped his mind?
I am in the process of tracking down a copy of that correspondence from an individual that I was told had a copy of it. Keep your fingers crossed!
Now, assuming all the above is correct, the shortest route to the source would be another correspondence to Mr. Corbin. (Failing Mr. Davis sharing a copy of his) As I was browsing the archives on this site some time ago, I believe I saw an address for Mrs. Corbin where a hard cover leather bound copy of her “Bible” on the LDM could be ordered. That address (if I could only find it again) might a good one to use to contact Mr. Corbin at.
Now, If there was an FBI Lab Report and it was used to determine that the stones were antiquities of the state of Arizona, and thus turned over to the Flagg Foundation as has been suggested, then I cannot imagine Mr. Corbin NOT keeping a copy of that report in his personal LDM files! Right?
If Mr. Corbin did in fact respond to Mr. Davis and verify the event, (Yet to be determined for sure) but Mr. Corbin does not come up with some form of documentation for the event, or at least a lead to where the documentation can be found. I would say there is another Whale on the beach.
Sir Joe
See what happens when you insinuate things about other people without mentioning their names? People jump to the wrong conclusions! I was not attacking Mr. Worst or Mr. Reser, rather I was defending a perceived attack on them by you. If you want to say something then, by all means say it and quit beating around the bush, in a way that is so easily misunderstood, unless you are trying to cover all the bases by making EVERYONE a suspect. I am not attacking YOU, just your methods of deception.
krf
It'a ALL in "WHO" you know
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Lichen and Patina
krf,
There is still the question of sunlight needed for lichen and patina (desert varnish). If you turn a rock over that has been in the desert sun, for long enough to have a "patina", what will the underside look like? How much lichen will be on the bottom?
For anyone who decides to turn over a "desert varnish" rock, just to see for themselves, it should be turned back over and returned to its original resting place.....Thank you.
If you can't date the Stone Maps using those things, what other method could be used?
Was there a report that mentioned dating the Stone Maps using patina and lichen? That is, by the way, a great method for dating Native American petroglyphs.
Please explain your reasoning here, as it is confusing.
Joe Ribaudo
There is still the question of sunlight needed for lichen and patina (desert varnish). If you turn a rock over that has been in the desert sun, for long enough to have a "patina", what will the underside look like? How much lichen will be on the bottom?
For anyone who decides to turn over a "desert varnish" rock, just to see for themselves, it should be turned back over and returned to its original resting place.....Thank you.
If you can't date the Stone Maps using those things, what other method could be used?
Was there a report that mentioned dating the Stone Maps using patina and lichen? That is, by the way, a great method for dating Native American petroglyphs.
Please explain your reasoning here, as it is confusing.
Joe Ribaudo
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Mike McChesney
- Expert
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
- Location: Arizona Vagrant
One of my sources of information, who had some unusual misfortunes befall him after making some information public some years ago, has asked me to post his personal feelings about Tom Kollenborn.
Let me say first, that I don't know the man personally, but I have not heard anything bad about him. So, if you have a problem with Mr. Kollenborn, this is not my opinion. I am simply passing on a sentiment from another person who obviously thinks the world of him (I wish I had somebody to take my back like this)!
"Tom Kollenborn has a gentle nature, which is a prerequisite for working with children like he has all of his life as a Scout Leader and Educator in the public school system. I have known him for nearly 20 years and never known him to encourage or support any kind of controversy between two individuals or groups of people. Tom will in fact go out of his way to avoid becoming involved in controversy of any kind himself, or strive to bring it to a peaceful conclusion between others if he can. In the case of the stone maps, we are talking about a very controversial subject right out of the gate. My first impressions about the stone maps were pretty much influenced by Tom in a discussion I had with him about them back around 1990. I had no personal opinion about them at the time and Tom felt free to discuss what he knew about them openly without fear of a controversy erupting from anything he said. We spent about 20 minutes discussing all the positive aspects in favor of their validity as far as pertaining to something of value in the Superstitions or anywhere else. Then we spent a fairly equal amount of time discussing the negative aspects in favor of the idea that they were fakes. Tom can make a very respectable case for either side of that discussion, and I came away from it without any idea of what his personal opinions about the validity of the maps were. If he knows he is speaking to a disbeliever, I can easily imagine him giving them his 20-minute version of the negative aspects of the validity of them, without presenting any of the positive aspects he is aware of, and avoiding the possibility of a disagreement with them. On the other hand if he knows he is speaking to a believer in the validity of them, It is just as easy for me to imagine that he would give them his 20-minute version of the positive aspects while avoiding the mention of any of the negative aspects. At this late Date, Tom is very familiar with my opinions on the subject, and even tho he may have in his possession enough evidence to blow all of my opinions and beliefs clear out of the water, it would not be in his nature to do so. Tom places a high value on Friendship and would not jeopardize his friendship with anyone over a personal opinion on anything. I do not doubt that your friend had a discussion with Tom about the stone maps and came away with the impression that Tom is a nonbeliever in the validity of them based solely on his comments about the negative aspects and no comments about the positive aspects, but I would hesitate to form a definite conclusion of what Tom’s opinions are about the stone maps based on that one conversation with that one individual."
So, my friend, I hope this satisfies your request.
Best,
Mike
Let me say first, that I don't know the man personally, but I have not heard anything bad about him. So, if you have a problem with Mr. Kollenborn, this is not my opinion. I am simply passing on a sentiment from another person who obviously thinks the world of him (I wish I had somebody to take my back like this)!
"Tom Kollenborn has a gentle nature, which is a prerequisite for working with children like he has all of his life as a Scout Leader and Educator in the public school system. I have known him for nearly 20 years and never known him to encourage or support any kind of controversy between two individuals or groups of people. Tom will in fact go out of his way to avoid becoming involved in controversy of any kind himself, or strive to bring it to a peaceful conclusion between others if he can. In the case of the stone maps, we are talking about a very controversial subject right out of the gate. My first impressions about the stone maps were pretty much influenced by Tom in a discussion I had with him about them back around 1990. I had no personal opinion about them at the time and Tom felt free to discuss what he knew about them openly without fear of a controversy erupting from anything he said. We spent about 20 minutes discussing all the positive aspects in favor of their validity as far as pertaining to something of value in the Superstitions or anywhere else. Then we spent a fairly equal amount of time discussing the negative aspects in favor of the idea that they were fakes. Tom can make a very respectable case for either side of that discussion, and I came away from it without any idea of what his personal opinions about the validity of the maps were. If he knows he is speaking to a disbeliever, I can easily imagine him giving them his 20-minute version of the negative aspects of the validity of them, without presenting any of the positive aspects he is aware of, and avoiding the possibility of a disagreement with them. On the other hand if he knows he is speaking to a believer in the validity of them, It is just as easy for me to imagine that he would give them his 20-minute version of the positive aspects while avoiding the mention of any of the negative aspects. At this late Date, Tom is very familiar with my opinions on the subject, and even tho he may have in his possession enough evidence to blow all of my opinions and beliefs clear out of the water, it would not be in his nature to do so. Tom places a high value on Friendship and would not jeopardize his friendship with anyone over a personal opinion on anything. I do not doubt that your friend had a discussion with Tom about the stone maps and came away with the impression that Tom is a nonbeliever in the validity of them based solely on his comments about the negative aspects and no comments about the positive aspects, but I would hesitate to form a definite conclusion of what Tom’s opinions are about the stone maps based on that one conversation with that one individual."
So, my friend, I hope this satisfies your request.
Best,
Mike