The Cave of the Gold Bars

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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King's Fifth

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

Is this a true statement?

"because they did not carry the Kings Fith marking"

Tracy has told us that the LaFrance and Brady bars were marked with the King's Royal Fifth Crown. While I can't say he is telling the truth about Brady's bar, I believe he is and I know for a fact that that the crown was on the LaFrance bars.

Joe Ribaudo
buscar
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Post by buscar »

Joe,

The drawing of Harry’s gold bar (Member Archive) is what Tracy, said the gold bar looked like and, including Brady's gold bars.

buscar :)
Saguaro
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Post by Saguaro »

This might not be the right place to ask this but i was reading this page and saw azmulas name and was wondering if his articles on the main page about stone Maps were moved somewhere, I can't find them anymore and I was going to try and download them if I could. I came on and was interested in them and then got interested reading this page and wondred if there was any connection between the two. thanks.
TGH
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www.thelostdutchman.net

Post by TGH »

Last edited by TGH on Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Brady

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

While it's true that Bob Brady sent Chuck and the others to Bluff Spring Mountain, it is likely he lied. Bob Brady became scared because of the number of people brought into the search. Originally he approached Ernie Provence and wanted him to, alone, to go to the cave with him.

Ernie's words were: "I will go, but with an army". I would not look for Brady's cave on Bluff Spring Mountain.

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Azmula's Article

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Saguaro,

I have Azmula's entire article and will be happy to send you a copy on request.

Joe Ribaudo
LDM
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Azmula

Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

This might not be the right place to ask this but i was reading this page and saw azmulas name and was wondering if his articles on the main page about stone Maps were moved somewhere, I can't find them anymore and I was going to try and download them if I could. I came on and was interested in them and then got interested reading this page and wondred if there was any connection between the two. thanks.
Hi Saguaro,
You're right, they're gone. That's too bad, they were excellent articles. Azmula is probably the most knowledgable person on the planet when it comes to the stone maps and all the history surrounding them. Possibly, you could PM him and see if he could make them available to you?
Good luck!
buscar
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Post by buscar »

Listed are a couple of possibilities, that may match, according to the “black film” found on Harry’s gold bar.

Bismuth has been confused with tin and lead, which could be a possible match.

Gold containing silver when attacked by sulfur compounds in air forms a black sulfide layer.

I would also like to add, that the purity of the gold bar (being 86% gold with silver and lead), does not match the gold ore said to have came out from under the Dutchman’s bed.

buscar :)
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Gold purity

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LDM
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buscar
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Post by buscar »

The color of the gold bars indicates the age of the bars and the impurities in the bars associated with the proficiency level of the smelting during the era that the gold bars were, produced.

A reddish tinge indicates the presence of copper, which reflects bars produced from gold sources melted coins and jewelry and indicates older bars.

Butter yellow colored bars indicates bars produced by up-to-date smelters and from gold sources of below ground ore.

A white tinge to the gold bars indicates the presence of silver and platinum from other smelters and gold sources of below ground ore.

A greenish tinge indicates the presence of iron.

buscar :)
Last edited by buscar on Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Buscar,
You seem to know your gold pretty well, bud!
Saguaro
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Post by Saguaro »

CC
Last edited by Saguaro on Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Last edited by TGH on Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LDM
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Kings Fifth stamp.

Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
buscar
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Post by buscar »

The gold bars that Bob Brady and later, Harry France found (according to Tracy L Hawkins) had only one marking on them, and that was a crown in the upper left hand corner as seen in the drawing at Member Archive.

Tracy said, that he held Harry’s gold bar in his hand, and also seen the pictures of the bars that Brady found. To Tracy’s understanding, is that the pictures burned in a fire at New River.

Doubtless, there will be further interpretation of the representation of the (crown) marking on the gold bars.

Celeste Maria Jones a black opera singer of Metropolitan fame, and treasure hunter, established her 1949 base camp at Piñon Camp in the upper East Boulder Canyon, at the base of Weavers Needle. Jones was searching for the Lost Jesuit Gold she believed hidden in a cave near the top of the Needle.

Below Jones' camp in the 1950’s, Ed Piper established his camp on a small flat area between the Peralta Trail and the bed of East Boulder Canyon. He was also looking for Jesuit treasure.

The gold bars Harry discovered in a cave under a triangle rock was just west of where both Jones and Piper had their camps.

Providing, that the stories presented are the whole truth, nothing but the truth, then it stands without question as to why both Ed Piper and Maria Jones made their abode at the base of Weavers Needle (possibly the main mountain of interest) while searching for Jesuit (member of Roman Catholic religious order) gold.

buscar :)
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Post by buscar »

If we evaluate Harry’s story, and others (Charles Williams, Ray Diamond, etc) that are said to have discovered gold in a cave on a rainy-day, they all have certain telltale characteristics to other stories coming out of the Superstition Mountains:

Why is it, that these treasures seem to reveal themselves only to the teller? Equally amazing is the bizarre phenomenon of so many who have searched for them, and have turned up empty handed.

Stranger details of these stories are that of the finder never able to locate the treasure again. It is highly doubtful that they would move on their own accord.

Because of the complexity of these interconnecting tales, they suggest both probable hoaxes and a tremendous amount of fact. What then is the explanation that would be the most plausible theory to all of the stories to finding gold on a rainy-day, and then not being able to locate it again? :?

A likelihood, that might create an obvious clue in the explanation is the implication that a rainy-day undoubtedly creates fewer shadows, thus eliminating faults outlines that so often accrue on sunny days from large rocks and bushes that frequent the supposed area.

One query that can easily be explained are the geographical arrangement of the Superstition Mountains, that make them rugged with landmarks in common with many others of its kind.

The one thing no doubt most baffling of all when seeking shelter from the rain, and finding gold, is the remarkable coincidence of the discoverers being in the right place at the right time. It is almost like winning a major state lottery.

What is your explanation to the baffling and strange accounts?

buscar :)
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Mike McChesney
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Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey Buscar,
The one thing no doubt most baffling of all when seeking shelter from the rain, and finding gold, is the remarkable coincidence of the discoverers being in the right place at the right time. It is almost like winning a major state lottery.
I think you answered your own question. IF (and it is a big IF) those stories are true, right place, right time explains why they and nobody else has stumbled on them.

Same thing happened to old "Doc Noss" on Victorio Peak in NM (if you believe that story). Rainstorm. Took shelter under an overhang. Heard water pouring down under a boulder. Moved it. Found a hole and old indian ladder....the rest is history.

Never being able to relocate the treasure. GREED and PARANOIA! I would have marked the living hell out of that spot. Some people would be afraid to, for fear of somebody else getting back there first.

As for the crown being on a rough smelted Gold Bar: Not likely. Butter bars would be cached, and carried back to the hacienda at the end of the season. There it would be weighed and counted. The King's share would be separated there and marked.

My two cents about that.

Now,

A little about Jesuit Mining in Alta Primeria:

Jesuit Priests (until their expulsion in 1767) made up a very small part in any Spanish Treasure Expedition. There were just enough priests to handle the Indian Converts that were used as manual labor for the monument making and mining.

The Jesuits themselves didn't have anything to do with the mining (until a Mission was established, more later). An official expedition had a Cartographer (Mapmaker) assigned by the Palace of Governors in either Santa Fe or Mexico City. The expedition leader (or hacienda owner) would hire a private Mining Engineer to oversee all mining operations and monument design.

In the early 1700s, King Philip V decreed that all monuments and markers on both maps and stone carvings were to be standardized. That way, if hostile Indians, Bandits, or disease killed off the original expedition, the King could send a backup group that would be able to read the monuments left by the previous group, and recover any treasure they left behind (the king WAS going to get his Royal Quint (One-Fifth) . As part of that decree, anybody who wished to get a license to mine (officially), was required to file a certified set of three maps of all their mines with the Palace of Governors in either Santa Fe or Mexico City. They would occasionally send their agents to the mines to make sure the maps were accurate. If any fraud or misdirection was found, the Mine Owners would lose their license to mine (and probably their freedom for defrauding the King).

Now, if a rich mine (or set of mines) was found, and a more permanent settlement was needed, they would get permission to establish a hacienda and/or a mission.

Once the Jesuits had established a mission in the area, they would get into mining themselves. They were , after all, in charge of all the manual labor. When the Jesuits mined, they believed that the Church was superior to the State, and didn't feel the need to report their mining operations to the King's Representatives or give up one fifth to the King.

Over the years, the Jesuits hoarded tons of gold and silver. The local governors were angry with the Jesuits (for not doing thir bidding) and scared of them (because of their great wealth and influence over the local Indians). If the local authorities leaked any info on the Jesuit Operations up the ladder, the Jesuit Priests could get the Indians to stop working for anybody but them! That was the entire reason for the Jesuit Expulsion from the new world in 1767. When the Jesuit Priests got wind that they were being rounded up and kicked out, they buried any hoarded gold and silver, and backfilled any working mines they had. That is why when the Franciscan Padres arrived in 1768 and 1769, they found that the Indians had reverted to their former savage state and moved out of the missions. The Franciscans also found NONE of the Jesuit mines!

That's about it for tonight. It's getting late (3AM), and if anybody needs more info on Colonial Spanish Mining and Monument Making, please just ask (or email me). It's what I do, and I don't mind sharing info!

Best,

Mike
Last edited by Mike McChesney on Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
buscar
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Post by buscar »

Normally, the teller of a far-fetched story does not look for something that is not there, but sits back in amusement while others embark on a wild goose chase. Studying Harry’s story, things out of the ordinary had taken place, he accompanied his hearers in the search. This and the fact that eyewitnesses saw the gold bar is an additional over whelming factor that is hard to dismiss as an illusion. This alone is a crucial factor in the case.

The story does not appear to be an archetype of a fairy tale. However, the burning question allegedly assumed is, did Harry or someone else invent the yarn as a plausible scheme with typical loose ends or will it stand up to truly logical examination? If we debunk the tale, there are always folks who will still believe it and repeat it as a true-life account. On the other hand, if it is a real-life happening, there are individuals who will unmoving lean toward complete fabrication.

One persistent theory that matches relatively close, according to the evidence, is with the intention that Bob Brady may have told the account to Harry. In return for the gold bar, he was to locate someone he might trust to aid in relocating the cave. Stories similar to this is known as, FOAF (“friend of a friend story“) tales.

The other sign involving Harry’s gold bar with Ray Diamond’s lost bar of gold, seems to describe distinct parallels. If Harry stumbled onto the bar that Diamond claimed he found in a cave, and lost it in the storm, then he would have merely past his tale on to Tracy L Hawkins in hopes together they would locate the source of the gold.

Although there is little to support the theories already described, we should assess fairly, every possibility pertaining to this unsolved mystery.

Like a crime scene where evidence is often added or taken away, so it is with scores of treasure stories that find their way onto the pages of countless books.

buscar :)
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