Yellow Jackets

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oldpueblo70
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by oldpueblo70 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:06 pm

Klondike,
Thank you for your response. looking forward to hearing from you.

Oroblanco,
Thank you for your response as well. I should have done a better job of separating my response to you and Mr Ribaudo. I apologize for that.
You, along with Klondike, Mr Ribaudo, and several other posters provide a wealth of knowledge. Collectively as a group many your posts are often under appreciated.

Take care.
Old Pueblo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:42 pm

Gentlemen:

So much evidence so little understanding. Maybe you folks can find the trail up Horse Mesa. Believe Robinson pretty much stumbled on it. Who knows maybe the secret is waiting.

A trail from the Salt River to Horse Mesa with side trails to two massive Gold Deposits to the west. A trail into History.

You folks think too little of what the pioneers were really up to.

Klondke

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Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 am

klondike wrote:Gentlemen:

So much evidence so little understanding. Maybe you folks can find the trail up Horse Mesa. Believe Robinson pretty much stumbled on it. Who knows maybe the secret is waiting.

A trail from the Salt River to Horse Mesa with side trails to two massive Gold Deposits to the west. A trail into History.

You folks think too little of what the pioneers were really up to.

Klondke
Klondyke it is good to see you are posting. I think I may have mentioned this but if not, I don't live in Arizona any more. I now live over a thousand miles away, and can't just go for a jaunt off to Horse Mesa on a whim. In fact what limited time I do get to spend in Arizona, is usually spoken for on other tasks.

One other point but the standard is that when someone makes a rather outlandish sounding claim, it is on the person making that claim to provide proof to support it. Not on others to have to go off on a snipe hunt for your entertainment. Not to discourage you from the book, but I am not willing to drive over a thousand miles to go look over some ground that I have been over years ago and saw nothing remotely approaching your lost civilization. Oh to be sure there certainly is evidence of ancient people having either lived in or worked in the area, you do see occasional bits of broken pottery and such, but it is 100% native Americans, not anything from the Mediterranean.

I still wonder why it never occurred to you to look for Calalus where there were people known as Olmecs living, namely south central Mexico. Remember it was from such a site that the Roman statuary head was found in the grave goods, a very good article on it at:
http://econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/calix.htm

Even if the 'Calalus' artifacts found in Arizona were genuine, and there are strong reasons to believe they are not, this could very easily be explained as having been literally 'dumped' there as extraneous booty by a raiding war party, or fleeing survivors etc. Remember Occam's razor, if the obvious explanation will fit it is more often than not correct. The lack of any supporting evidence of a Roman/Samaritan/Atlantian presence in the region, like inscriptions, pottery sherds, coins, etc also would tend to support the hoax explanation. Conversely, just to give an example, if we were proposing Punic explorers having reached the eastern seaboard of the US, we have ancient documents referring to it, inscriptions found in several states, coins found, even ancient stone structures as for example at Mystery Hill, NH http://www.stonehengeusa.com/ in other words you can make a fairly strong case - but we have NO such documentation from the Old World to support the Calalus story, no inscriptions found etc.

Old Pueblo thank you on behalf of all of us for the very kind words, and my apologies if my previous posts have seemed a bit curt toward our mutual amigo Klondyke. I simply ran out of patience for the games he apparently loves to play, and his never offering any kind of solid proof, always trying to send us out on a wild goose chase. His tale however is probably going to make a great book and I expect will be a best seller.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 am

Hello Oroblanco

Let`s see Robinson shows the coordinates of the trail that Bark and Ely took to the top of Horse Mesa. And what does Ely tell us about his day on Horse Mesa.

“We never put in a more interesting day on any Dutchman hunt.”

(Lost Dutchman Mine, Page 157)

Close to Horse Mesa major fossil Gold Deposits are now just beginning to be understood. See the work of cuzzin jack. Trails still exist from Horse Mesa to those deposits. Across from Horse Mesa stands Coronado Mesa with its still unknown history. The Salt River passes Horse Mesa and in ancient times was a literal highway to India and beyond.

Similar symbology exists on both the Tucson Artifacts and the Trail Maps, and just to add a little spice, the discovery of artifacts at Casa Grande that have symbols that are well special. See Bent Work, "The Tucson Artifacts". And the Canyon that was discovered with ancient symbols high up in the Superstitions that could not be deciphered. Or the ancient armory that was discovered on Bluff Spring?

Perhaps you are right. I am reminded of the move with Leslie Nelson standing in front of a burning building proclaiming," folks move along, nothing to see here please move along".

Did you ever stop to think that the presence of folks in those mountains for over a 1000 years dedicated to hiding the library and removing any presence of previous habitation would not have an impact? It did.

This added to the assistance of some very powerful folks did the trick. What was the real reason the Superstitions is off limits to Mining? And what is the Chapel of the Holy Cross Sedonna pointing to? Think Stars. The clues are all around but you have to see them.

Good luck in your journeys and may the stars keep you safe.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:05 am

Klondyke wrote
Hello Oroblanco

Let`s see Robinson shows the coordinates of the trail that Bark and Ely took to the top of Horse Mesa. And what does Ely tell us about his day on Horse Mesa.

“We never put in a more interesting day on any Dutchman hunt.”

(Lost Dutchman Mine, Page 157)

Close to Horse Mesa major fossil Gold Deposits are now just beginning to be understood. See the work of cuzzin jack. Trails still exist from Horse Mesa to those deposits. Across from Horse Mesa stands Coronado Mesa with its still unknown history. The Salt River passes Horse Mesa and in ancient times was a literal highway to India and beyond.
I would say this appears to be reading very much more into a sentence than was intended. Do you believe that if Sims Ely and Jim Bark had found massive evidence of an ancient Roman civilization, that they would have not announced it to the world? Remember Ely had been a newspaperman. That proposal strikes me as extremely unlikely, especially as they were focused on finding a lost gold mine, with no linkage to any lost civilization. I have not seen anything to prove that the Salt river was navigable to ships circa 1000 AD. Besides, even if it were, the Salt river empties into the Colorado, which empties into the gulf of California. The gulf of California would be very difficult for a fleet of medeival ships to reach, sailing from the Mediterranean, it would mean having to sail half way around the globe. Not saying that is impossible either, there is some evidence that more than one attempt to circumnavigate the planet has been attempted (and perhaps successfully) in the time before Christ, which puts it over a thousand years away from the time of the supposed Calalus colony. As well as having been done by a different culture entirely.

Klondyke also wrote

Similar symbology exists on both the Tucson Artifacts and the Trail Maps, and just to add a little spice, the discovery of artifacts at Casa Grande that have symbols that are well special. See Bent Work, "The Tucson Artifacts". And the Canyon that was discovered with ancient symbols high up in the Superstitions that could not be deciphered. Or the ancient armory that was discovered on Bluff Spring?
Okay we have another extraordinary claim here, which I put in bold (it was not bold in the original post, see above). You are claiming that an ancient armory was discovered on Bluff Spring? Are you aware that many hundreds of Dutch hunters have thoroughly explored Bluff Spring mountain over the decades, without ever mentioning any evidence of such discovery? Were they all blind? Did this ancient armory also get swiftly smuggled out of the country, to be placed in a foreign land, perhaps put on display in a museum there as well? You do realize those would be felonies correct? If you are truly aware of such felonies having been committed, and are not reporting what you know of them, and whomever was involved in such a wholesale theft an smuggling of antiquities, you could also be held liable as an accessory after the fact? I am NOT accusing you of this amigo, just pointing out to you that this aspect of your tales is/are highly suspect, for it is in fact describing Federal felonies, and possibly state felonies as well (looting of artifacts is very much frowned upon). However you have not explained what exactly became of this ancient armory, perhaps it is still there? Can you provide some photos of the weapons, armor etc?

Klondyke also wrote

Perhaps you are right. I am reminded of the move with Leslie Nelson standing in front of a burning building proclaiming," folks move along, nothing to see here please move along".

Did you ever stop to think that the presence of folks in those mountains for over a 1000 years dedicated to hiding the library and removing any presence of previous habitation would not have an impact? It did.
I have indeed stopped to think, that if such a large colony of Roman/Samaritan people were REALLY living in those mountains for a thousand years, we would have a very large, incontrovertible accumulation of evidence including the actual settlement itself. It would not be doubtful. Coins, pottery or at least pottery sherds, ruins, inscriptions in Latin (people leave graffiti regardless of culture or time period) and linguistic ties to neighboring peoples would be self evident and numerous. We would not be debating it here, you would be able to read it in high school history books. Surely you do not hold that a foreign colony with a foreign language and culture, including religious beliefs, present for a thousand years, would NOT leave a much larger 'footprint' than what has been presented here? I presume you must be joking about this. Remember your theory has a large colony of people living there for centuries, not a mere visit by lost explorers or merchants that happened to pass through the region.

Klondyke also wrote

This added to the assistance of some very powerful folks did the trick. What was the real reason the Superstitions is off limits to Mining? And what is the Chapel of the Holy Cross Sedonna pointing to? Think Stars. The clues are all around but you have to see them.
It is not difficult to find the reasons why the Superstitions wilderness area was created. The biggest reason was to stop the wholesale development of the desert which has been stopped at the very foot of these mountains. Just look at a satellite image of the area to see it. That some environmental protection groups have managed to pressure the government agencies to enforce draconian measures against prospecting and mining is after the fact, not prior.

That said, paleo-astronomy is a science in its infancy, it is unsafe to make sweeping assertions about apparent alignments etc. The field of study is interesting, but without written information to document what any particular alignments were intended to mean, we are left with mere speculation.

You have proposed quite a story line here Klondyke, and have been tying things in to it with such abandon, it bothers me. I would think that you would wish to be cautious, hesitant at least about linking any new finds or theories to your original tale, for fear of accidently linking a particular thing to your story line that later proves to be a hoax. I can give you a clear example - I spent some years accumulating evidence of ancient visitors to the Americas, on the intention of publishing a book on the topic. In the research, the finding of some strange "ancient Hebrew" coins were reported over a particular area in Kentucky, with one more that turned up in an adjoining state. As I happen to collect ancient coins but not ancient Hebrew coins, I have seen a fair number and these did not look quite right to my eye. I sent the best scans I could obtain of the 'coins' to a friend in Israel whom is widely known as the foremost authority on ancient Hebrew coins, and not long after I had my reply. They were modern replicas, made in the 19th century, presented as gifts or presents to children for doing well in Jewish studies. Had I written up a chapter to include this supposed ancient Jewish colony in Kentucky, it would tend to cast the whole book as poorly researched at the least, ridiculed at worst. This did not prevent several other authors from publishing whole articles and web sites presenting the theory of a huge ancient Jewish colony of the Ten Lost Tribes having settled in Kentucky!

Now just imagine how your own credibility should some evidence or part of the theory that you have included, were to be proven to be a false theory or hoax? It would not benefit your credibility, I think you would agree. Maybe you should re-examine Bent's manuscript yourself, with a bit more skeptical eye? I only suggest this because hoaxes are not a rare occurrence, people have tried to fake Drake's landing site in California, a stone giant in NY, even a primitive 'ape-man' or missing link called "Piltdown man" over the years, and we should have learned to be cautious when we see rather unusual finds and/or claims being made. Not saying that you are the victim of a hoax amigo, but the possibility is there.

You are probably aware of this, but I will leave you with a name of the fellow believed by some to have been the creator of the Tucson artifacts. Timotéo Odohui. Can you rule him out as the creator?

Good luck and good hunting to you too Klondyke and all reading this lengthy discussion, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And please keep us posted when the book will be available for purchase? Thanks in advance.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:04 pm

Hello Oroblanco,

There is so much that is not known about Jim Bark and Sims Ely, particularly here. In South Africa it is a different story. There are numerous clues in Ely`s work, "the Lost Dutchman", that point to the library. In fact the journey to find the LDM was always a journey to protect Oz. That journey was a success and the LDM was always a journey created to keep folks away from the library. You folks should spend more time researching Mr. Bark`s trip to New York, and Ely`s time in Boulder City. Also research the history of El Dorado Canyon and how it relates to the Superstitions. Ely and Bark had no need to search for something they already knew existed.

As far as I know unless locals ran off with the content of the armory on Bluff Spring Mountain it still should be there. Given its location unless someone literally falls into it it will remain hidden for many, many years. A dutch hunter did acknowledge its existence. Should be easy enough to find.

Never said there was a large colony living in those mountains. The major locations were elsewhere. Near Tucson, on the Colorado River, particularly the Spirit Mountain area. What was in the Superstitions was an ancient library, trails, and other things. Mentioned this before and almost directly beneath Fremont Saddle is a huge structure that begs to be uncovered.

As far as the star signs well they are everywhere. There is an ancient astronomical location on Maliapi, several others in the Superstitions and of course the mother load that is Circlestone. You should take very seriously the alignment of Casa Grande, Circlestone, and Spirit Mountain. A line drawn thru these locations will present a picture of a celestial Constellation. Of course you will need to figure out the importance of the Chapel of the Cross in Sedona to understand which one it is. You can get a beautiful view of that constellation on a clear night not a block away from the Chapel. You should try it sometime.

As far as the Tucson Artifacts go, if you will take the time to read the Bent work, you will understand why it is impossible that Mr. Odohul had anything to to with their creation. The artifacts were created in the last days of the people while the destruction of Calalus and its smaller cities were on going. The Tucson Artifacts have many clues not the least of which are the letters OL which appear repeatedly on them. These letters are very important and their meaning is well nigh impossible to translate. We in the modern age have simply replaced OL with the symbol of OZ. Also the relationship between Bent and the McGee`s is important. Who do you think pointed out to the McGee`s the location of a hidden canyon high in the Superstitions that had symbols that could not be understand. Who knows maybe the Canyon of the Souls. Actually a beautiful place.

Roy for over 15 years this dialogue has continued on this site and others. The answers to your questions and others are scattered here and among a half dozen web sites.

The simple fact is the most important historical site in the world was, and its ghost, is still in the Superstitions. It will not come to you, you will have to reach out to it.

May the stars keep you safe.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:05 am

Greetings Klondyke;
I presume that you are concluding Mr Odohui couldn't have made the Tucson 'artifacts' because he could not get the old car battery lead used to make them? I can assure you that it is a certainty that he could obtain that type of lead.

You have indeed stated that a large colony was living there, or do you not recall your telling me of the vast ruins and relics that I must have seen in Fish creek canyon? Perhaps that slipped your mind? How many people do you now say were living in Calalus? A rough estimate will suffice.

I noticed that you did not answer one particular question, which is this - can you tell us when your book will be available for purchase? Thanks in advance.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:30 am

Hello Roy,

Mr. Odohul could not have made the artifacts because well we know who did make them. As has been pointed out in other posts the artifacts were made by 2 scribes, each with a different level of expertise. An analysis of the artifacts reflect this. Also the physical evidence of the dig clearly show we are not dealing with a modern creation. The artifacts were created in Eldorado Canyon in what is now known as Nevada. Think Sims Ely. Perhaps he was looking for where the artifacts were created in hopes of finding other things such as ancient maps that would show the location of sites throughout the southwest. The location in Eldorado Canyon was a transportation hub for movement throughout the southwest and had records of voyages from India, the Mediterranean and other places. In fact inscribed on one ancient gold/copper plate is the location of where it all started and how to get there. You see certain pioneers were after a far greater prize than the illusion that is the LDM. That particular plate now hangs from a wall in a small out of the way museum in South Africa.

Fish Creek Canyon. Yes that was an interesting day. Seems you walked right by a location that was being worked. Remember it well. Perhaps a pebble pitched down a Canyon face would have caught your attention. Maybe not. Keep in mind the presence of the folks from Calalus were but a part of the story. The presence of the ancients were significantly greater. Perhaps a better number is how many survived the holocaust. A pitiful few. But they survived and flourished.

Roy I have written several books on the history of Calalus and the Ancients. These books are used in classes in South Africa and their distribution is strictly controlled. I will be 70 soon and additional efforts are just not in the works. The library is safe and well there are more important things in my life.

Anyway when I am in South Africa I find it far more fascinating to celebrate the knowledge of the library and the incredibly flawed folks who created it. Their story and their efforts are far more sophisticated than anything that I could write. Fascinating that such a people could have destroyed the world. Our people have been blessed to be part of this history.

Klondike


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Somehiker » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:44 am


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:44 pm

Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

Mr. Odohul could not have made the artifacts because well we know who did make them. As has been pointed out in other posts the artifacts were made by 2 scribes, each with a different level of expertise. An analysis of the artifacts reflect this. Also the physical evidence of the dig clearly show we are not dealing with a modern creation. The artifacts were created in Eldorado Canyon in what is now known as Nevada. Think Sims Ely. Perhaps he was looking for where the artifacts were created in hopes of finding other things such as ancient maps that would show the location of sites throughout the southwest. The location in Eldorado Canyon was a transportation hub for movement throughout the southwest and had records of voyages from India, the Mediterranean and other places. In fact inscribed on one ancient gold/copper plate is the location of where it all started and how to get there. You see certain pioneers were after a far greater prize than the illusion that is the LDM. That particular plate now hangs from a wall in a small out of the way museum in South Africa.
Aha, a gold/copper plate, inscribed! Please post a photo or two of this plate, so that we may judge for ourselves what type of writing it is, what language, and by extrapolation, possibly also the time period and culture that created it. Surely you are capable of obtaining a few photos you can share?

Klondike also wrote

Fish Creek Canyon. Yes that was an interesting day. Seems you walked right by a location that was being worked. Remember it well. Perhaps a pebble pitched down a Canyon face would have caught your attention. Maybe not. Keep in mind the presence of the folks from Calalus were but a part of the story. The presence of the ancients were significantly greater. Perhaps a better number is how many survived the holocaust. A pitiful few. But they survived and flourished.
You have some evidence of this holocaust, I presume? Please post some evidence of this horrific event, so that we might learn as a civilization and not repeat it.

Klondike also wrote

Roy I have written several books on the history of Calalus and the Ancients. These books are used in classes in South Africa and their distribution is strictly controlled. I will be 70 soon and additional efforts are just not in the works. The library is safe and well there are more important things in my life.
I see, but at least you can give us the titles of these books you have already authored? I have had surprising success with interlibrary loans, even from very distant lands. What sort of books would ever have a "strictly controlled" distribution? Are they illegal in some way? Just curious, but even such restrictions can usually be overcome with some effort.

Klondike also wrote

Anyway when I am in South Africa I find it far more fascinating to celebrate the knowledge of the library and the incredibly flawed folks who created it. Their story and their efforts are far more sophisticated than anything that I could write. Fascinating that such a people could have destroyed the world. Our people have been blessed to be part of this history.
So we are still discussing this phantom library. Please post some photos of these plates, scrolls, tablets, codices, papyrus, vellum, or any form the alleged collection of writings exists in.

Sorry if I just keep returning to the same requests and questions Klondyke, it is just that your tale is simply well, not believable. There is nothing to support the presence of a quasi-Roman/Samaritan colony existing in what is Arizona today, other than the highly doubtful Calalus 'artifacts' which just coincidentally happen to be made of the same lead alloy used for automobile batteries in the 1920s. Did those early Romans discover the car battery alloy, a thousand years before it was used for car batteries? There is nothing to indicate that.

On the other hand, by some diligent research, I may well have located this small museum in South Africa where you are keeping all the illegally looted and smuggled Calalus/Oz artifacts and antiquities, which is this one:

http://www.noshowmuseum.com/en/

Sorry but I couldn't resist. :mrgreen:

Good luck and good hunting to you Klondike, you should have spoken to me in Fish Creek canyon if you really wished to make a believer out of me, for I would certainly have been willing to look at any and all 'evidence' you might believe you have there, although at that time I was searching for any indications of a missing person, not the lost Dutchman mine or any other kind of treasures. You may believe that or not I really don't care, but your tale is being wasted if you do not publish it as an historical fiction. I was not kidding that it would likely be a best seller.

Thanks for the links Somehiker, had not seen all of those.

Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:00 pm

Hello Roy,

Perhaps it bears repeating, we will show the way but we will not solve the riddle for you. There is ample evidence to support the position that we have advanced for many, many years. It is not that these dialogues are not interesting but to continue you must demonstrate an ability to engage on things that are right in front of you. You want to be given the truth but do not want to earn it. Not going to happen.

Having said that there was a dialogue a few years ago entitled, LDM, OZ, and Calalus. In that dialogue were three posts that we made that provides positive proof linking the Tucson Artifacts and the library of Oz. Spend some time and try to understand them and then go forward. Those three posts are the mother load and a correct understanding will lead to one of the settlements of Calalus.

In fact I experienced a lot of heartburn over those posts because it was obvious to several of us that a 12 year old with an open mind could crack the mystery in a matter of hours. Good thing there are none out there with the imagination of a 12 year old.

You see Roy your questions are aimed at giving you the truth, we insist you earn it.

Good luck in your efforts.

Klondike

Hello Somehiker,

Interesting reads. In fact those efforts answer some of Roy`s questions. Obviously I would add those three posts as an additional clue along the way. Actually some good works out there by folks who find all of this nonsense. If fact two of them were written by us. A real hoot sending folks on a wild goose chase. Yet at the end of the day it is all about Horse Mesa and its surroundings. Even Coronado could see it he just could not find it.

May the stars keep you safe.

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by oldpueblo70 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Hello Klondike,

You have said that you have always been willing to share the truth with those who cross the finish line however, you wouldn't carry someone across it.
I can understand this. What do you consider crossing the finish line?

I also find the LDM, OZ, and Calalus thread very interesting. :-)

Thanks in advance,
old pueblo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:46 am

Oroblanco wrote:Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

Mr. Odohul could not have made the artifacts because well we know who did make them. As has been pointed out in other posts the artifacts were made by 2 scribes, each with a different level of expertise. An analysis of the artifacts reflect this. Also the physical evidence of the dig clearly show we are not dealing with a modern creation. The artifacts were created in Eldorado Canyon in what is now known as Nevada. Think Sims Ely. Perhaps he was looking for where the artifacts were created in hopes of finding other things such as ancient maps that would show the location of sites throughout the southwest. The location in Eldorado Canyon was a transportation hub for movement throughout the southwest and had records of voyages from India, the Mediterranean and other places. In fact inscribed on one ancient gold/copper plate is the location of where it all started and how to get there. You see certain pioneers were after a far greater prize than the illusion that is the LDM. That particular plate now hangs from a wall in a small out of the way museum in South Africa.
Aha, a gold/copper plate, inscribed! Please post a photo or two of this plate, so that we may judge for ourselves what type of writing it is, what language, and by extrapolation, possibly also the time period and culture that created it. Surely you are capable of obtaining a few photos you can share?

Klondike also wrote

Fish Creek Canyon. Yes that was an interesting day. Seems you walked right by a location that was being worked. Remember it well. Perhaps a pebble pitched down a Canyon face would have caught your attention. Maybe not. Keep in mind the presence of the folks from Calalus were but a part of the story. The presence of the ancients were significantly greater. Perhaps a better number is how many survived the holocaust. A pitiful few. But they survived and flourished.
You have some evidence of this holocaust, I presume? Please post some evidence of this horrific event, so that we might learn as a civilization and not repeat it.

Klondike also wrote

Roy I have written several books on the history of Calalus and the Ancients. These books are used in classes in South Africa and their distribution is strictly controlled. I will be 70 soon and additional efforts are just not in the works. The library is safe and well there are more important things in my life.
I see, but at least you can give us the titles of these books you have already authored? I have had surprising success with interlibrary loans, even from very distant lands. What sort of books would ever have a "strictly controlled" distribution? Are they illegal in some way? Just curious, but even such restrictions can usually be overcome with some effort.

Klondike also wrote

Anyway when I am in South Africa I find it far more fascinating to celebrate the knowledge of the library and the incredibly flawed folks who created it. Their story and their efforts are far more sophisticated than anything that I could write. Fascinating that such a people could have destroyed the world. Our people have been blessed to be part of this history.
So we are still discussing this phantom library. Please post some photos of these plates, scrolls, tablets, codices, papyrus, vellum, or any form the alleged collection of writings exists in.

Sorry if I just keep returning to the same requests and questions Klondyke, it is just that your tale is simply well, not believable. There is nothing to support the presence of a quasi-Roman/Samaritan colony existing in what is Arizona today, other than the highly doubtful Calalus 'artifacts' which just coincidentally happen to be made of the same lead alloy used for automobile batteries in the 1920s. Did those early Romans discover the car battery alloy, a thousand years before it was used for car batteries? There is nothing to indicate that.

On the other hand, by some diligent research, I may well have located this small museum in South Africa where you are keeping all the illegally looted and smuggled Calalus/Oz artifacts and antiquities, which is this one:

http://www.noshowmuseum.com/en/

Sorry but I couldn't resist. :mrgreen:

Good luck and good hunting to you Klondike, you should have spoken to me in Fish Creek canyon if you really wished to make a believer out of me, for I would certainly have been willing to look at any and all 'evidence' you might believe you have there, although at that time I was searching for any indications of a missing person, not the lost Dutchman mine or any other kind of treasures. You may believe that or not I really don't care, but your tale is being wasted if you do not publish it as an historical fiction. I was not kidding that it would likely be a best seller.

Thanks for the links Somehiker, had not seen all of those.

Oroblanco
Roy,

It seems that you, and on occasion, myself are both too dim to see the obvious facts that have been presented to us over the years by Ben and his multiple identities. You would think that, after more than a decade of schooling, we would have seen the truth of "Calalus". Personally, I must confess, I don't have much of a clue as to where the truth lies, possibly somewhere in the fertile imagination of our friend Ben.

I would think they have had plenty of time to conjure up a fictional language, complete with a rendering of the alphabet. In this day and age, I would imagine pictures of a few books would not be all that difficult.

It would seem that having convinced a few of us non believers would be a valuable asset once the book is published.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:05 am

Gentlemen:

The ambiguity of all of this has and continues to be important. You underestimate the reaction in many, many places if say a photograph of a gold/copper plate was provided that was engraved in a totally new language.

Horse Mesa would be bull dozed down to the Salt River with folks from all over the globe looking for treasure. Not interested in being part of that circus.

Anyway if cuzzinjack ever gets into those two major Gold Deposits at depth none of this will matter. The discovery of a mining operation using advanced technology, think the Carlin Trend in Nevada,will be hard to understand and tools engraved in a language that is not known will trigger a lot of folks.

Next they will drain the Salt River looking for ancient ships. Should be quite the hoot. Sad amchair quarterbacks will be watching from their tv`s.

Take Care and look to the stars. The answer has always been right there. :D

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:31 pm

Ben,

That last post proves what an overactive imagination you have. You are the ultimate "armchair quarterback", setting at your desk and trying to put us all in your play book. You are slowly working your way past blindbowman in the prevarication race. Which of you will end up with the crown?

Really, "Horse Mesa would be bull dozed down to the Salt River..."? What a laugh you are..... :lol:

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:31 pm

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Good to see you are doing well. Really would not expect you out there on a bulldozer. Sure the folks in the black helicopters will run all of you off.

Anyway you should spend some time understanding the precious metal deposits that cuzzinjack is working on. They are a real eye opener. Imagine one day it will be all over CNN. Then you can call it fake news. :lol:

Have a good day.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:47 am

Hello oldpueblo,

Please see my private pm. I am traveling right now and will return Sunday.

That is a good question. It seems the answer is different for folks. A common element seems to be able to connect what has always been right there all along. And that journey has for some been short and others well it wasn`t.

I would say that if someone carefully reads the three posts that connect the library of Oz and the Tucson Artifacts and takes the time to understand the following post that was made years ago really needs nothing else to work on. Also the efforts that Somehiker referenced is a wealth of primary data to work with:

"Years ago my father and a friend visited the Superstition Mountains with an archeologist friend from Harvard University. She was quite a lady. Dad was impressed with her work in Mexico. I tagged along hoping this would be a rather eventful trip. I was not disappointed.

We entered the range from Hierogllyphic Canyon, crossed Supersition Mountain and made our way to the saddle high above West Boulder Canyon. We camped there for the night. To the east was a wonderous view of Weaver`s Needle.

That night under an incredible sky my father shared with his friend the history of our people, the location of sites we would be visiting over the next few days and the history of the last days of Calalus that had been handed down from generation to generation. I will never forget his discussion of the creation of the Tucson Artifacts. They were made in the last days of the people in a small canyon, (Eldorado Canyon, Nevada) on the Colorado River. The artifacts were forged as a map home that one day might lead the descendents of Calalus back to their most holy site in the Superstitions. The relics were later dumped in a marshy area of Arizona to make room for living survivors of the holocast that befell the people. That is another history for another day.

Over the next several days we visited a number of sites and finally made our way to Horse Mesa on the Salt River. From there we entered several holy places and for days dad`s friend not only had the opportunity to study the people`s history but to also aquaint herself with the history of a more ancient people that were the reason the settlers of Calalus came to America to begin with.

I think dad was very interested in her thoughts on what she had seen and for many years she joined us and others to visit the range to protect and care for the most important historical site in the world. I too became her friend and when she passed away felt a loss that has never really been filled.

The trail we followed is the trail that is engraved on the Tucson Artifacts. The name of the holy site in the Superstitions is mentioned, many times on the artifacts but has never been recognized for what it is."

In a way she always knew the truth it took very little to surface that which was always there. Not much really to add in a public setting.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:53 am

klondike wrote:Hello oldpueblo,

Please see my private pm. I am traveling right now and will return Sunday.

That is a good question. It seems the answer is different for folks. A common element seems to be able to connect what has always been right there all along. And that journey has for some been short and others well it wasn`t.

I would say that if someone carefully reads the three posts that connect the library of Oz and the Tucson Artifacts and takes the time to understand the following post that was made years ago really needs nothing else to work on. Also the efforts that Somehiker referenced is a wealth of primary data to work with:

"Years ago my father and a friend visited the Superstition Mountains with an archeologist friend from Harvard University. She was quite a lady. Dad was impressed with her work in Mexico. I tagged along hoping this would be a rather eventful trip. I was not disappointed.

We entered the range from Hierogllyphic Canyon, crossed Supersition Mountain and made our way to the saddle high above West Boulder Canyon. We camped there for the night. To the east was a wonderous view of Weaver`s Needle.

That night under an incredible sky my father shared with his friend the history of our people, the location of sites we would be visiting over the next few days and the history of the last days of Calalus that had been handed down from generation to generation. I will never forget his discussion of the creation of the Tucson Artifacts. They were made in the last days of the people in a small canyon, (Eldorado Canyon, Nevada) on the Colorado River. The artifacts were forged as a map home that one day might lead the descendents of Calalus back to their most holy site in the Superstitions. The relics were later dumped in a marshy area of Arizona to make room for living survivors of the holocast that befell the people. That is another history for another day.

Over the next several days we visited a number of sites and finally made our way to Horse Mesa on the Salt River. From there we entered several holy places and for days dad`s friend not only had the opportunity to study the people`s history but to also aquaint herself with the history of a more ancient people that were the reason the settlers of Calalus came to America to begin with.

I think dad was very interested in her thoughts on what she had seen and for many years she joined us and others to visit the range to protect and care for the most important historical site in the world. I too became her friend and when she passed away felt a loss that has never really been filled.

The trail we followed is the trail that is engraved on the Tucson Artifacts. The name of the holy site in the Superstitions is mentioned, many times on the artifacts but has never been recognized for what it is."

In a way she always knew the truth it took very little to surface that which was always there. Not much really to add in a public setting.

Klondike
Ben,

Actually, Cynthia Irwin-Williams received her first B.A. in Anthropology from Radcliffe College. She also received a M.A. in Anthropology from the same institution. This was, I believe in 1957-'58. She received her PhD. from Harvard in 1963.

Her work in Mexico was indeed impressive. I have a number of her publications/papers. She never once, that I know of addressed Calalus nor the Superstition Mountains.

You will need more than your interesting story to prove your father and you spent any time, with Cynthia, in the Superstitions.....or that you ever met the lady at all.

I believe I have mentioned before that Cynthia would never have anything to do with the type of operation you claim to have run in the mountains. She was a pure professional.

On the other hand, I commend you for trying to weave a well known and respected professional into your story. Makes for a much more interesting tale. Surprised you didn't use her name. Afraid you would be exposed by those who knew her?

Keep going as you are building an excellent fictional account.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:13 pm

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

You see that is the type of investigative work that people need to do. Of course your efforts are well a bit superficial. We do not identify individuals for a number of reasons. None of them based on your conclusion.

If you had dug a bit deeper you would have found some other remarkable things. That would require a more fundamental look that would tell you a lot more. If you wish to dig deeper you might find two things that well open a gate. keep you eyes open or you will not see what has always been right in front of you.

Good work just a bit simplistic.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:41 am

Ben,

I do not need to dig any deeper into Cynthia's history. I may be simplistic, but I have no need to bring people into our conversation, making claims of conversations that never took place.

The lady has been dead since 1990, so I doubt she would care about any mention of her name. If you knew anything about her, you would know she wouldn't give Calalus any serious thought. If she did, she would have written about it. Can't wait to see what you come up with next.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:10 am

Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

Perhaps it bears repeating, we will show the way but we will not solve the riddle for you. There is ample evidence to support the position that we have advanced for many, many years. It is not that these dialogues are not interesting but to continue you must demonstrate an ability to engage on things that are right in front of you. You want to be given the truth but do not want to earn it. Not going to happen.

Having said that there was a dialogue a few years ago entitled, LDM, OZ, and Calalus. In that dialogue were three posts that we made that provides positive proof linking the Tucson Artifacts and the library of Oz. Spend some time and try to understand them and then go forward. Those three posts are the mother load and a correct understanding will lead to one of the settlements of Calalus.

In fact I experienced a lot of heartburn over those posts because it was obvious to several of us that a 12 year old with an open mind could crack the mystery in a matter of hours. Good thing there are none out there with the imagination of a 12 year old.

You see Roy your questions are aimed at giving you the truth, we insist you earn it.

Good luck in your efforts.
Nope. No thanks, I have already reached a conclusion, when you refused to provide the slightest evidence of proof of this mythical library of Oz you raved about. Where is that third dialogue of Plato, Hermocrates? Or the "Full length" edition of Critias and Timaeus? I suppose I am supposed to just keep waiting for that too. You continue to dodge simple questions like the TITLES of those many books you claim to have authored, which are being used as school texts. Can't dream up a good title or two? This has gone far past the ridiculous and now I simply watch to see where you are going with this next.

You mentioned the 12 year old with imagination could 'solve' this, indicating that a powerful imagination is required, which means that it is in fact imaginary to start with. A true 'lost' civilization as you have tried to sell here, would hardly need any kind of imagination at all, the evidence would speak for itself. Oh there might be some debate for a time, while the historians haggle over details and resist editing history to correct it, but it does get corrected when new evidence is found. Had you really found any such thing, the academic community would be at least discussing it today.

I have to agree with Joe, we are just "too dim" to be able to envision the fantastical land of Oz, with the sunken ancient ships in the Salt river and underground library etc. It is a shame that you are not publishing this as a book however, as it is wasting good fiction.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, thanks for not providing any photos of the supposed books,library or ruins, and for not providing that lost third dialogue of Plato, nor answering what are the titles of the books you supposedly authored. Those refusals to answer such simple questions are fairly solid proof of a fraud, a fake, a con job being pulled via the internet. I wonder where you will go with this next...
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:23 am

Roy,

Instead of cursing the darkness you should try lighting a candle. It is not about what you have not been given it is about what you have been given. As I have stated again, and again the clues are out there you simply have to see them and you have to ask questions about what can be answered not what cannot be answered.

We are not required to prove anything. If you cannot deal with the overwhelming evidence tying the Tucson Artifacts and the Library of Oz that is ok. Simply accept the darkness and move on to something different.

Anyone with any degree of understanding of Geological processes alone would look at the analysis of cuzzinjack regrading massive fossils gold deposits in the western superstitions and be awe stuck and say simply what in the world was going on here and more importantly what did it take to mine such deposits?

Not taking anything anywhere. You asked a question and I tried to help. Nothing more nothing less. Perhaps you are right you would be better off to move along and ignore the fire right in front of you. Just as you ignored what was right there in Fish Creek Canyon years ago..

Anyway good luck in your efforts and as you say hopefully you will find what you are looking for.

Klondike.

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:46 am

klondike wrote:Roy,

Instead of cursing the darkness you should try lighting a candle. It is not about what you have not been given it is about what you have been given. As I have stated again, and again the clues are out there you simply have to see them and you have to ask questions about what can be answered not what cannot be answered.

We are not required to prove anything. If you cannot deal with the overwhelming evidence tying the Tucson Artifacts and the Library of Oz that is ok. Simply accept the darkness and move on to something different.
Sorry to disappoint, but I fail to have any darkness to curse. Your viewpoint is however quite reversed from reality, there has not been any 'overwhelming evidence' presented. The burden of proof is on you, not me or anyone else. Were I to tell you that I have found Atlantis, you would demand (*not as in "demand" strongly affirmative, but as per demand payment) to see some proof of this, would you not? Or would you simply go run off to what ever site I tell you, to go off on a wild goose chase in hopes of finding it?

Klondike also wrote

Anyone with any degree of understanding of Geological processes alone would look at the analysis of cuzzinjack regrading massive fossils gold deposits in the western superstitions and be awe stuck and say simply what in the world was going on here and more importantly what did it take to mine such deposits?

Not taking anything anywhere. You asked a question and I tried to help. Nothing more nothing less. Perhaps you are right you would be better off to move along and ignore the fire right in front of you. Just as you ignored what was right there in Fish Creek Canyon years ago..

Anyway good luck in your efforts and as you say hopefully you will find what you are looking for.

Klondike.
I think I mentioned this to you but I was not looking for any kind of ruins, relics, inscriptions, treasures, mines or anything other than any trace of a missing PERSON. Can you grasp that concept? Perhaps not. Perhaps for you, everything is about greedily questing for lost relics to squirrel away out of the country, to then secretly lord them as some kind of illegal 'trophies' for your own select group? Have you never done anything just to try to help someone in trouble? Perhaps not to that too.

So what is the next tale to be woven together with the tale of Oz the Great? Have you considered the Rosicrucians? Should I tell you that crosses have been found buried, which seem to predate the arrival of Columbus, but in quite another site? Have you seen the map of Macrobius, showing the gulf of Mexico circa 400 AD? Or do you have no interest in these things, because they might not fit with your Calalus/Oz->Superstition mountains theory, but DO point to a real Roman presence in the Americas, well to the south, in the area where the Toltec homeland actually is located?

You see Klondike your whole game here has been quite entertaining, but I no longer expect you to ever provide any proof of the many things you have listed, like the third book of Plato, and now the many books you have authored but are SECRETS. You have not accounted for the Ten Lost Tribes yet either, so I await your further chapters to come.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:15 pm

Hello Roy,

Good to see your imagination at work. Actually that is the first step to discovering truth but one must first find wisdom. With that on your side judging the various options and settling on what is true is quite easy. Without wisdom nothing is possible.

For example we have always said that the Critias is in fact complete and the completed work is the basis for the beginning of understanding the Atlantis legend, but it is only the beginning. When Plato wrote the Critias it was only the middle part of a three part trilogy dedicated to this subject. The first being the Timeaus, the second being Critias and the third being Hermocrates.

Anyone interested in a serious dialogue of this issue would have wondered how is it there is not only the incomplete version of the Critias in the public view but what about the missing third part of the trilogy? The third part of the trilogy does in fact exist. It goes into great detail of the adventures that led to the discovery of vast deposits in and near the Superstitions. It also talks about many other things.

These are the ways to open various gates. That is demonstrate you are willing to work and bring yourself to a point where a reasonable discussion of the relevant matters are possible.

Perhaps if you and Joe had taken the time to pursue these and other issues on a fundamental level a discussion would have been possible. I will leave you with one additional nugget of knowledge. Have you ever asked yourself why South Africa is important to all of this? Its importance is far greater than you imagine. We have directed you there for one reason to reveal and conceal. We revealed its importance as a library and an outpost for the people. What we have concealed up to now is the actual home of Atlantis, well it was always South Africa. We have tried to hide this fact but no more. No real point anymore.

Good luck in your efforts and may the stars keep you safe.

Klondike

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