## NEW Jacob Waltz Information

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Mike McChesney
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Location: Arizona Vagrant

### NEW Jacob Waltz Information

Not really.

I just can't believe that this forum has so completely died out.

I regularly look in on this forum because this was the go-to LDM Forum for many years. Every other forum that has an LDM Area is only just starting what this forum did many years ago.

Granted, if a person takes the time to look through all the threads here, there aren't too many LDM questions that haven't been answered (at least) once or twice. I know that in order for a forum to stay active, new information needs to be put out regularly.

In the years I have been doing this, I have seen several forums operate under several sets of rules. Some more moderated than others. A lot of people stopped posting here because of the attacks and brawls that used to break out.

Other than some of the Old Timers passing away, I don't understand why this form just died out the way it did.

This forum is BAR NONE the best source for LDM Information on the internet.

One thing I loved about this forum was that the members were always pretty quick to shoot down the cloud readers and kooks (often one in the same).

I would like everybody that reads this thread to post a little something. You could give an opinion on what you think might resurrect this forum. It could be of some fond memory. It could be why you chose to stop posting here. What I am really looking for is to find out just how many people still actually look in on this site.

Thanks - Mike

don
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Location: united kingdom

### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

my opinion is,for what its worth is that the reason was because a small clique tried to dominate the site.If i recall correctly there were barely veiled threats of violence aimed at 1 member. It got a tad nasty .

Joe Ribaudo
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### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

Mike,

Some members over on TNet are not going to be posting there until you are "Un-Banned". No real reason why we must post over there, as I agree with what you have said about this site.

I think it may be time for the LDM Forum to be resurrected. Let's see if we can get that started, as we both have lots of friends.

Take care,

Joe

Mike McChesney
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Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

Joe,

I saw that, and thank those folks for me. The funny thing is that nobody probably got to see the post that got me banned (till May 13th).

Since Bill answered your post and mentioned me (although misspelled), I decided to answer him. I told TH that he couldn't have been more mistaken about Bill, and I listed several names we all knew he went by. I told him about The TOR Browser and how it can be used to hide and change IP Addresses. I EVEN said that in this incarnation of Bill, I didn't believe he has been using any other aliases.

I can't believe THAT post got me banned! HAHAHA I personally don't care. I will probably gather up my marbles on 5/13 and go play elsewhere. One of the reasons I would like to resurrect this forum. It was always one of my favorites.

TNet has been a refuge for the "Cloud Chasers" and nutjobs. When they take the side of someone like Bill Riley, I am pretty well done.

Let's see what we can do with this forum!!!

So far, I see 5 reads and only 2 responses!

Mike

Joe Ribaudo
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### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

Mike,

One thing that is much better over here, is that a "search" takes you to each post where your word is mentioned. Saves a lot of time. I have emailed a number of friends to see if they would be interested in changing sites.

Take care,

Joe

Cubfan64
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Since you asked so nicely Mike, I'll give you my $0.02 as to what happened here but it's nothing real enlightening to anyone who used to post here... A few strong personalities got to the point where they couldn't act with civility towards one another and it got to be tedious to read through the sarcasm, snottiness and just general BS. To use your own words, about 1/2 of the active members took their marbles and went home to play in a new yard, about 1/4 of the active members just got sick of all of it and became lurkers or just ignored forums and the other 1/4 continued posting here as well as other forums like DUSA, TNET and Peter's defunct site, but with much less regularity. The other factor that comes into play is something you said to start off this thread - pretty much any question asked about the LDM has been hashed and rehashed here as well as other places. Eventually you get to the point as a poster that you get tired of repeating the same discussions over and over again - unless something new comes up, it's just old news and not worth the time to bring it up again. Another thing that's at least happened to me over the last few years and that's I'm not proud of is that I'm tired of "educating" people new to the LDM stories. I feel badly about that because at one time I was one of those new people and if I hadn't had folks like Joe, Greg, David Leach, etc... to point me in the right directions I would have probably gone on to something else. In thinking about it, maybe I'm only tired of trying to educate people new to the legends who arrogantly tell me what the truth is about the LDM. Those people who are respectful, ask intelligent questions and show the desire and ability to take advice and to read up on some of the old threads I don't have a problem with but those people are few and far between. I still pop on here once a week or so as I do on DUSA, but I'm just not that active anymore - mostly because there's just nothing too new to talk about. That and I guess I'm sort of into my own thing now - you know, that whole "hunting the LDM is a solitary venture" that Clay Worst has mentioned before. I would like to see the forum get active again, but not sure how big a part I can play in pushing for that anymore. Mike McChesney Expert Posts: 506 Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am Location: Arizona Vagrant ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information I could really care less about coinshooting in parks, other people's beach finds, and not so funny "family friendly" jokes. HAHAHA I prefer the nitty gritty treasure hunting discussions to "family friendly" blabber, although I don't like the idea of chasing people away with threats and craziness. I will email some folks as well. Mike Joe Ribaudo Expert Posts: 5453 Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Paul, It's true that the conversations are getting a little stale.....maybe a lot stale. Every once in awhile a newbie comes along with a new story or outlook on the LDM. With all my faults I certainly caused a big stir here when I first arrived in 2002. I still look forward to those kinds of discussions from "new blood", much like when you first came on the forums. I still enjoy the excitement that the new folks bring with them. I have met a lot of those newbies at the Rendezvous and they have become good friends. It won't be that long before I am forced out of our little club. I won't give in till that time comes. Take care, Joe Mike McChesney Expert Posts: 506 Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am Location: Arizona Vagrant ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Hey Paul, I agree with you 100%. I don't mind rererehashing for newbies. What I hate is when a newbie asks a question, and when you answer it, they come back wanting book, chapter, page, paragraph, and line where you got that information. I think that this forum could be great again, but with a little more moderation. Not too much. Not too little. Juuuuuust right! HAHAHA Mike Oroblanco Part Timer Posts: 417 Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm Location: Black Hills SD Contact: ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Mike McChesney wrote TNet has been a refuge for the "Cloud Chasers" and nutjobs. Well now you know why I was hanging around there! I hope this forum does get back to life. I realize that people can get sick of re-hashing and having to re-educate the newbies over and over, but we were all newbies at one time and it takes some patience. Just think how you might have felt if when you first got into the LDM legend, and joined a forum to ask a few questions, you were given short shrift or some rude posts. It is easy to get discouraged. <begin RANT> I got upset with T-net when the outfit changed hands, and is not owned and run by treasure hunters any more. It is owned and run by forum operators. They have a different view of things and I even tried to have my ID erased but could not. Also got rather sick of trolls and jerks, some of whom are only on a forum to pick a fight, when if you were to meet face to face they would run the other way. It occurred to me that if I am spending time hunting up sources and hand typing out the texts (our scanner is a pain to use, it is not connected to my computer and in another building) and hunting up photos to try to sway the opinion of someone that often is not bothering to even READ what I took the time to write out. Which is the idiot in that situation? Me! For spending my time on a nit brain. I have never been very active posting here, and for a long time I just was a lurker because I did not care for the frequent flame wars. I HOPE that does not recur, but if it does I can ignore it too. <\end RANT> Now as to NEW information on Jacob Waltz, I look forward to reading some! (heh heh) There is a little bit of new info that has turned up, but since the amount of garbage that appeared in recent years I am leery of accepting it. Please do continue amigos, good luck and good hunting I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Oroblanco "We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca Joe Ribaudo Expert Posts: 5453 Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Roy, You wrote over on TNet: "I don't mean to discourage RG1976 from filming videos, they are great and especially for people who do not live in Apache Jct and can't trot up into the Superstitions on any afternoon. Debunking is also good, for there is or are a great deal of nonsense, error and falsehoods that have gotten mixed into the LDM legend. However at the root we have a successful German prospector, rich gold (according to the Holmes assay it had over 5000 ounces of gold per ton) that led Waltz's closest friends to spend their resources, even lifetimes searching for the mine. If someone wants to debunk that, it would take more than a video, you will need to find the place that gold we can see in the matchbox, cufflinks, tie pin etc came from as a perfect match, and that source NOT be in the Superstitions or near them. Otherwise we have solid documentation on Holmes and how the ore became jewelry, his own words that the gold came from Waltz, his own actions indicating that he certainly believed the mine was in the Superstitions, also Julia and Reiney (and later Reiney's father and brother as well) also searching for the mine, stating that Waltz had a mine, that Waltz had given Julia a sizable amount of money in the form of gold to help her out, and the accusation that Holmes had taken the remaining gold Waltz had without permission. I hold that this set of circumstances, statements and documentation would make a strong court case, to debunk it would require showing a different, proven source for the gold specimens (jewelry) than what Dick Holmes said and supported by Julia and Reiney." I believe that the ore that Holmes had assayed was "jewelry" ore.....selected samples which were picked for their richness. It seems to me that would not necessarily be indicative of what could be produced, per ton, in the actual mine. From what I have read, (no practical experience) that might well be the case for many of the old Arizona mines which might show exceedingly rich ore near the surface but pinch out at depth. As you have said before, depending on the type of ore found, that might or might not be the case. There have been a number of mines (reportedly) found in the Superstitions that have shown great promise to make the finder(s) rich. After the initial success they seem to drop out of sight. "Historically speaking". Go easy on me, as I am not a well man......yet. Take care, Joe Joe Ribaudo Expert Posts: 5453 Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Once again, Waltz or Waltzer is being discussed over on TNet. Roy is making the argument for Waltz, and I believe he is correct. Enter Waltzer into the search page here and it will bring up the pros and cons of this old debate. As Mike and I have stated, this forum is, bar none, the best place to find information on the LDM. (Loose quote) Joe Ribaudo don Part Timer Posts: 386 Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm Location: united kingdom ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Ok...a bit tongue in cheek here,but as regards Holmes and how much his words can be believed in....Has anyone found the dwarf deer he spoke of?..the last Id heard they hadnt encountered such a species..maybe "they" have since, and perhaps Im being overly suspicious of anything he (Holmes) wrote. I thought of mentioning also Holmes's rather nonsensical statement(to me anyway) that he recognised Adolph Ruth from his (ruth's) skull (complete with supposed bullet wounds)immediately. I decided against mentioning it because that might lead us off in many directions. But if anyone could "put me straight" as regards either or both of those issues then I might be more inclined to believe ,or bear in mind anyway, any other things Holmes wrote of. Kind regards Don update your email address Joe Ribaudo Expert Posts: 5453 Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information don wrote:Ok...a bit tongue in cheek here,but as regards Holmes and how much his words can be believed in....Has anyone found the dwarf deer he spoke of?..the last Id heard they hadnt encountered such a species..maybe "they" have since, and perhaps Im being overly suspicious of anything he (Holmes) wrote. I thought of mentioning also Holmes's rather nonsensical statement(to me anyway) that he recognised Adolph Ruth from his (ruth's) skull (complete with supposed bullet wounds)immediately. I decided against mentioning it because that might lead us off in many directions. But if anyone could "put me straight" as regards either or both of those issues then I might be more inclined to believe ,or bear in mind anyway, any other things Holmes wrote of. Kind regards Don, Dwarf Deer: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=dwa ... &FORM=IGRE Take care, Joe Oroblanco Part Timer Posts: 417 Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm Location: Black Hills SD Contact: ### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information Cactusjumper <see how nicknames stick to you, even where you use your real name?> wrote believe that the ore that Holmes had assayed was "jewelry" ore.....selected samples which were picked for their richness. It seems to me that would not necessarily be indicative of what could be produced, per ton, in the actual mine. From what I have read, (no practical experience) that might well be the case for many of the old Arizona mines which might show exceedingly rich ore near the surface but pinch out at depth. As you have said before, depending on the type of ore found, that might or might not be the case. There have been a number of mines (reportedly) found in the Superstitions that have shown great promise to make the finder(s) rich. After the initial success they seem to drop out of sight. "Historically speaking". Go easy on me, as I am not a well man......yet. I have no intention of going rough on you, for one thing I doubt that would accomplish anything and for another we have no need to. Unfortunately I can't say this in a few words so have to ask your indulgence, thank you in advance. I agree that the ore used to make the jewelry, was probably the prettiest specimens in the candle box. It is not uncommon for a gold vein to have some pretty specimen type ore, and a lot of plain fugly ore that may not even look like gold ore. However to get at the main point, and it is covering ground we have gone over (repeatedly and in depth) those jewelry pieces have the same mineral composition and characteristics of other ore in that vein, which may not look so pretty nor have nearly so much gold. It is almost a certainty (assuming Waltz had a gold mine and I am convinced he did) that he was picking out the richest looking ore he could, because from what information we have, he was working with hand tools only. A man cannot process many tons of rock using hand tools, it is slow, laborious work. I doubt very highly that he would have bothered to try to extract thin shoots or poorer looking ore, as the labor spent would be more profitably done on the richest materials he could get at. I know that you already know this, but for anyone reading our discussion that may not know it. That matchbox is made from a type of gold ore, that does not (normally) occur in shallow pockets. I do not know of a single example of a hypothermal type gold vein that did. For that matter, even if it is Mesothermal, and I contend that it is not based on the grain size being right on the dividing line (number) arbitrarily chosen to delineate between Mesothermal and Hypothermal types, AND on the very high gold to silver ratio. That is a feature of hypothermal type gold veins, and for the record, these are the type of gold veins that the old timers would dream of finding, as they often called them a "chimney" type gold deposit. The chimney term relates not to it being a hollow tube but the general shape, and the way this kind of vein tends to be vertical and running to great depths, sort of a 'chimney' for the volcanic heat deep in the earth. I am fairly convinced this is exactly what Waltz had found. Not an epithermal vein or lense or pocket that would pinch out quickly, and that kind of ore has different characteristics anyway, mainly much smaller grain size (often too small to see at all with the naked eye) and also often a low gold to silver ratio, or perhaps I should say it the reverse, a very high silver to gold ratio. As you know from the Holmes assay done at Goldman's jewelers, the ore he stated he got from Waltz had over 5000 ounces of gold per ton - and only 2 ounces of silver per ton. Look at that ratio on many of the Arizona gold mines to see what I am referring to. The famous Commonwealth gold mine near Pearce for instance, produced about$8 million worth of silver and \$2.5 million in gold. The Commonwealth pinched out around 500 feet depth (if memory serves and it is far from perfect) and was not a Hypothermal type deposit. The ratio of gold to silver will not vary by much in ore from any given mine, regardless of how much gold is in each particular lot (and that will vary considerably) because the silver is alloyed with the gold directly. None of the gold ore/mines that have been claimed to be the LDM have had a similar gold to silver ratio, and so far none have been Hypothermal for that matter.

To get at this point, think of it this way - if you dissolve some salt in water, do you find more salt in one part of the water than in others? No of course not, and this is why the silver and gold ratio will remain the same through any gold vein, because it was dissolved in water along with lots of silica (that made the quartz) so could not be very different especially since the gold and silver are actually bonded in alloy, they do not separate by dissolving in a water solution.
Here is a photo of nice Mesothermal gold ore, and you can see the large mineral crystals in it rather easily. (Dr Glover's conclusion was that Waltz's ore was Mesothermal, however I respectfully disagree as explained earlier)

Now compare to a piece of Epithermal gold ore:

The image is enlarged and you still cannot pick out the mineral grains in the host rock. Also notice that the quartz itself is not very white, as the colors of the quartz host also tend to be different in the different types of deposits.

You do not have to take my word on any of this, please do talk to a geologist, after all I am just an amateur in geology. Most books on gold mine geology have very little to say about Hypothermal type deposits and focus much attention on the much more common Epithermal type, so getting the facts may require careful reading. Even the best book on Arizona lode gold mines, hardly touches on Hypothermal type deposits while examining Epithermal type in detail. If you like I can suggest a few books.

As we have discussed before, there are other Hypothermal type gold deposits but not that many. Here in the Black Hills one such mine was dug down to well over 1000 feet, and had to be abandoned due to an accident, and flooding that ensued, but the ore in the mine was actually getting richer at that depth. The Vulture mine in AZ is not played out, and probably could be operated at a profit today as the ore body continues down to an unknown (and undetectable, without extreme deep drilling) depth. A good study on the geology of the Vulture is available online at:

http://www.azgs.az.gov/Mineral%20Scans/ ... 20Mine.pdf

The geology of the Superstition mountains is mostly not conducive to finding gold deposits, and yet at the same time, has small areas where there are excellent chances for quartz intrusions that carry gold, including possibly a chimney type gold vein that would fit one version of the story of Jacob Waltz. That version, has it as a relatively small shaft, perhaps no more than 12 to 18 feet deep, and no bigger in diameter than a barrel. This is just what you would expect the situation to be, if you found a chimney type gold vein, not a linear vein or lense or pocket and not necessarily showing much on the surface of the ground. If you read the history of the Vulture mine, it too did not look like much on the surface and opened up wider as the mining proceeded deeper. There are signs of hydrothermal activity over some large areas in the Superstitions too, and anywhere you have hydrothermal activity (minerals like chalcedony and quartz appearing) you have the possibility of a vein that contains gold or silver or both.

All it would have taken for a rich chimney of gold to have been created in the Superstition mountains, would be a crack in the host rock. As you know gold ore is not deposited in the ground at the same time as the host rock, the quartz is actually crystallized from highly mineralized water that carried the gold (and silver, copper etc) in solution until it filled in the cracks and voids in the country rock which the pressurized, heated water solution was invading.
For anyone reading this (as Joe already knows much of it) the Superstition mountains are made up largely of volcanic rocks, the result of ancient volcanic eruptions. These left massive rock layers and even 'plugs' standing like Weavers and Miners needles. This lava rock was liquid when it was deposited, and very hot. As the rock cooled and solidified, it contracts, shrinking and this shrinking caused the rock to crack, split, and leave voids in it. These voids were then (in many places, not all) open for the hot water trapped underground, which was heavily loaded with dissolved minerals. That liquid flowed upwards through the voids and cooled, which caused the dissolved minerals to crystallize out of the water forming chalcedony, quartz and other hydrothermal type minerals. It also carried gold up from the depths and deposited it in these same voids, where nature has been slowly eroding it out and this is how we have placer gold in a number of places in the Superstitions now.

I am probably not explaining it right, I hope this makes sense to anyone reading it.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, I have never been able to say things in just a few words. I hope all is well with you and look forward to seeing you again. Beth has set me to working on the house siding so I am sneaking off the job at the moment, but all work and no play makes Jack the dullard! Heck we even did a little fishing yesterday, but I had no luck at all - Beth managed to land a nice bass however, which I will attach a pic here.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
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"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

djui5
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### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

I heart this forum
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari

Mike McChesney
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

djui5 wrote:I heart this forum

I know Randy. So do I. That's why I contacted Joe about trying to resurrect it. Even dead, it is still the best source of LDM Info on the internet. Maybe without all the fighting and nuttiness, we can get those people that refused to post here back.

Mike

Deducer
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### Re: NEW Jacob Waltz Information

Probably a private invitation to the more knowledgeable posters via email would do the trick.